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Dragonball super worse than GT; Discussion
Topic Started: Dec 8 2015, 09:34 PM (13,205 Views)
+ QueenTD
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My Dear Melancholy,

Lord Vader
Dec 10 2015, 08:29 PM
Tin Man
Dec 10 2015, 08:24 PM
I was trying to show that he's done nothing in particular, everything he said can be applied in reverse, he seems to be stating it as fact and thus I am illustrating that all he's said was state an opinion without anything backing it (and I know he can being up stuff to back it). At the very least he could say why he feels this way, but he hasn't, and thus you can practically copy paste it with only a few changes.
That's why I responded the way I did.
In what way did his opinion come off as if it were a fact? What he said is how he feels.
QueenTF
 
To discuss our opinions like we do in many threads here. Similar to how someone will state an opinion on an episode. Then one might reply. Or when I discuss comic books...someone who disagree will step in and say why. You know how many times I had to repeat to Darker why Batman is GOAT?

You aren't discussing anything, you were merely displaying your disagreements. Cool, you disagree with his opinions, what exactly did that add to the conversation? If you wanted a discussion, you should have asked why he felt the way he did, instead of saying, "well, I prefer X, personally." Just stating your disagreements won't encourage discussion. I'd merely read that, go, "ok...?" and move on.
QueenTD*

Added quite a bit to make it a discussion. Best part of forums is that you don't have to reply. I actually set him up to explain himself if he chooses to reply but at the same time "ended" it in a way that if he chose not to then conversation over. I put up reasons why SSJ4 is better and gave negatives to SS(post God). If he reply he can say positive about SS(post God) and negative about SSJ4. Acccomplish the same thing you're asking for. Even challengd him on the Champa matter (We barely seen Champa).

So the conversation would keep going.

Typically how comic book discussion goes and that's how I talk about any fiction. If you read over it. That's not. Ain't hurting feelings. It was more of a direct challenge. Not something every user will reply to. Even though Clearin did.
Edited by QueenTD, Dec 10 2015, 08:43 PM.
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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魔王子

Tin Man
Dec 10 2015, 08:40 PM
Lord Vader
Dec 10 2015, 08:29 PM
Tin Man
Dec 10 2015, 08:24 PM
I was trying to show that he's done nothing in particular, everything he said can be applied in reverse, he seems to be stating it as fact and thus I am illustrating that all he's said was state an opinion without anything backing it (and I know he can being up stuff to back it). At the very least he could say why he feels this way, but he hasn't, and thus you can practically copy paste it with only a few changes.
That's why I responded the way I did.
In what way did his opinion come off as if it were a fact? What he said is how he feels.
He's done stuff similar to this before, and trends to act like Super being better than gt is an objective fact.

And in any case, regardless of if he was or wasn't, he still could have stood to say why he thinks what he thinks, and > does not supply that.
Even if he has done that, you're better off asking why, instead of repeating the contrary to his opinion.
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I actually set him up to explain himself if he chooses to reply

I certainly wouldn't reply to that. I'd merely look at that and go, "and..?" and move on. If you legitimately want a discussion, provoke a response instead of just leaving your disagreements hanging.
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Dec 10 2015, 08:46 PM.
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King Kakarot
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Super has good music imo

Love this one the most
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+ QueenTD
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My Dear Melancholy,

King Kakarot
Dec 10 2015, 08:45 PM
Super has good music imo

Love this one the most
That's actually not bad. A better thing to say should be non memorable or iconic. While maybe it's too quiet? Idk...just something is missing from it.

Ya feel me?

Quote:
 
I certainly wouldn't reply to that. I'd merely look at that and go, "and..?" and move on. If you legitimately want a discussion, provoke a response instead of just leaving your disagreements hanging.

Umm...OK? It's not that deep bro. Seeing as people are replying to make post. I created discussion.... so lower your standards pal
Edited by QueenTD, Dec 10 2015, 08:50 PM.
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Tinny
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Lord Vader
Dec 10 2015, 08:43 PM
Tin Man
Dec 10 2015, 08:40 PM
Lord Vader
Dec 10 2015, 08:29 PM
Tin Man
Dec 10 2015, 08:24 PM
I was trying to show that he's done nothing in particular, everything he said can be applied in reverse, he seems to be stating it as fact and thus I am illustrating that all he's said was state an opinion without anything backing it (and I know he can being up stuff to back it). At the very least he could say why he feels this way, but he hasn't, and thus you can practically copy paste it with only a few changes.
That's why I responded the way I did.
In what way did his opinion come off as if it were a fact? What he said is how he feels.
He's done stuff similar to this before, and trends to act like Super being better than gt is an objective fact.

And in any case, regardless of if he was or wasn't, he still could have stood to say why he thinks what he thinks, and > does not supply that.
Even if he has done that, you're better off asking why, instead of repeating the contrary to his opinion.
Quote:
 
I actually set him up to explain himself if he chooses to reply

I certainly wouldn't reply to that. I'd merely look at that and go, "and..?" and move on. If you legitimately want a discussion, provoke a response instead of just leaving your disagreements hanging.
Perhaps, maybe it's because I've seen the song and dance before and wasn't very amused ("Ssj4 is worse because it changes the clothes" didn't feel very compellingto me as an example) that I reacted so sarcastically, in any case he's welcome to defend his opinion.
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+ Pyrus
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I think it's funny now that something as bad or even worse than GT comes along, people start appreciating GT more.
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TheACE
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The Last GT Fighter

Pyrus
Dec 10 2015, 08:53 PM
I think it's funny now that something as bad or even worse than GT comes along, people start appreciating GT more.
Lol hey remember that one time a couple years back y I used voted for AT&T to come back and write a new series?
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+ QueenTD
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My Dear Melancholy,

TheACE
Dec 10 2015, 08:59 PM
Pyrus
Dec 10 2015, 08:53 PM
I think it's funny now that something as bad or even worse than GT comes along, people start appreciating GT more.
Lol hey remember that one time a couple years back y I used voted for AT&T to come back and write a new series?
AT&T....the phone company ....?
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
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highwaysaiyan
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IronHorse33
Dec 8 2015, 09:34 PM
This might be the biggest debate I did until now, critics of dragonball GT complained about a few things.
1)goku receiving all TV time 2)Pan is annoying 3)characters are misused 4)the powerscaling is weird 5)the story is rushed 6)there are great plot holes
7)uub being a weakling.

The things I liked about GT.
1)The baby saga gave us a more serious darker tone than previous sagas which is a good change. 2)the shadow dragons saga is the perfect ending to dragonball, either this or goku becoming evil. 3)characters still remained just as powerfull, they didnt get weaker. 4)all characters were used in a way
5)supersaiyan 4 ( come on guys, this design was freaking awsome, goku and vegeta looked brutal, you felt like someone is gonna get their butt kicked each time you saw them. 6) animation wasnt bad

right now in my honest opinion because i was around in both shows, during the first half of gt people compared about it having a boring first quarter, but now fans are really jumping over the direction of super, i mean i've been a fan of dragonball for years, but either this series was made by people who understand nothing of dragonball or they are just lazy. i didnt like anything about super, i am sorry if my opinion is offending anyone but this show needs to run of air, its completely destroying my childhood.

1)goku is now mentally retared, instead of innocent 2)goten and trunks are being utilized as weaker than roshi 3) the ssg design is just awfull. Really ? 4)our main villain is a fat version of the previous villain, and he is now even a villain. 5)frieza becoming as strong as a god in 4 months, OK so atleast devote an episode to him training so he could be hyped up, instead of showing him constantly sparring with a dodoria level character. 6) how can gohan get this weak by only resting for a year ? 7)Roshi fighting alongside the fighters while yamcha, chaotzu, goten and trunks are not allowed 7)they turned beerus into an annoying character rather than the enjoyable one in super. 8)they are severly weakening the other characters in order for goku and vegeta to look stronger and dont get me started at the annimation.

i think the only reason akirya toryama made super was for goku and vegeta to be able to match up to comic book characters like superman prime and thanos. not for the content
while GT (and most of DBZ) was a money milker at least it felt like they tried. super is like "people will watch it no matter what so no need to make good animation and get some depth into the story and make sense".

*about showing the training of frieza, you NEVER EVER show the past of a villain. especially when he is still evolving. even a short time can be bad unless written very very carefully. these kind of things may create compassion to the villain, which is something a storyteller never wants to have. (empathy to a villain)
do you want to see the character you like the most have horrible and humiliating ending ? doubt it.
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+ Clearin
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Pyrus
Dec 10 2015, 08:53 PM
I think it's funny now that something as bad or even worse than GT comes along, people start appreciating GT more.
In 15 years people will be saying how Dragon Ball Super is much better than Dragon Ball GX5DZexal
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Clearin
Dec 10 2015, 10:07 PM
Pyrus
Dec 10 2015, 08:53 PM
I think it's funny now that something as bad or even worse than GT comes along, people start appreciating GT more.
In 15 years people will be saying how Dragon Ball Super is much better than Dragon Ball GX5DZexal
That's exactly what will happen.
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ekrolo2
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highwaysaiyan
Dec 10 2015, 10:07 PM
IronHorse33
Dec 8 2015, 09:34 PM
This might be the biggest debate I did until now, critics of dragonball GT complained about a few things.
1)goku receiving all TV time 2)Pan is annoying 3)characters are misused 4)the powerscaling is weird 5)the story is rushed 6)there are great plot holes
7)uub being a weakling.

The things I liked about GT.
1)The baby saga gave us a more serious darker tone than previous sagas which is a good change. 2)the shadow dragons saga is the perfect ending to dragonball, either this or goku becoming evil. 3)characters still remained just as powerfull, they didnt get weaker. 4)all characters were used in a way
5)supersaiyan 4 ( come on guys, this design was freaking awsome, goku and vegeta looked brutal, you felt like someone is gonna get their butt kicked each time you saw them. 6) animation wasnt bad

right now in my honest opinion because i was around in both shows, during the first half of gt people compared about it having a boring first quarter, but now fans are really jumping over the direction of super, i mean i've been a fan of dragonball for years, but either this series was made by people who understand nothing of dragonball or they are just lazy. i didnt like anything about super, i am sorry if my opinion is offending anyone but this show needs to run of air, its completely destroying my childhood.

1)goku is now mentally retared, instead of innocent 2)goten and trunks are being utilized as weaker than roshi 3) the ssg design is just awfull. Really ? 4)our main villain is a fat version of the previous villain, and he is now even a villain. 5)frieza becoming as strong as a god in 4 months, OK so atleast devote an episode to him training so he could be hyped up, instead of showing him constantly sparring with a dodoria level character. 6) how can gohan get this weak by only resting for a year ? 7)Roshi fighting alongside the fighters while yamcha, chaotzu, goten and trunks are not allowed 7)they turned beerus into an annoying character rather than the enjoyable one in super. 8)they are severly weakening the other characters in order for goku and vegeta to look stronger and dont get me started at the annimation.

i think the only reason akirya toryama made super was for goku and vegeta to be able to match up to comic book characters like superman prime and thanos. not for the content
while GT (and most of DBZ) was a money milker at least it felt like they tried. super is like "people will watch it no matter what so no need to make good animation and get some depth into the story and make sense".

*about showing the training of frieza, you NEVER EVER show the past of a villain. especially when he is still evolving. even a short time can be bad unless written very very carefully. these kind of things may create compassion to the villain, which is something a storyteller never wants to have. (empathy to a villain)
do you want to see the character you like the most have horrible and humiliating ending ? doubt it.
That's a load of bulls*** though. If you don't want people to sympathize with a villain while showing his backstory, don't make it a sympathetic backstory. Not every guy is born in some crap family then abused and molded into a monster. Some people are just born as psychotic, evil, lunatics and Freeza is just that.

Also, writers never wanting for the audience to empathize with a villain is a straight up lie. Some of the best villains ever are guys who the audience can understand where they're coming from looking at it from either a personnel or ideological point of view. Kind of a contradiction from my last point but Freeza isn't designed to be sympathetic: he's a bastard and that's the end of that.

If Toriyama gave a f*** or if Dragon Ball was *le gasp* written by someone who's actually good, Freeza's training could be a morbid parallel to the many trainings we saw for the good guys. However, instead of Freeza turning into a good guy, he becomes an even more vicious villain. Learning things like the virtues of patience, having someone to back you up.... Can be used to make a compelling arc for a hero, and a way to push a villain who's more or less out of his element by this point into an even better villain.

Lastly, yes, I want to see Goku's face caved in. He has progressively become worse and worse as the Z era has gone on and I was rooting to see Freeza kick that s*** eating grin off his face in F. Goku's had it coming for a llllllooooonnnnngggggg time.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

A good villain doesn't need to be sympathetic, he needs to be complex. Up until Fat Boo (Although I would probably say Present No. 17 and No. 18 as well) almost all the villains we saw were just straight up villains with no characterization beyond being dick sauces. Raditz, Nappa, Vegeta, Dodoria, Cui,Freeza, Every single Android we've ever seen with exception of No. 8 (who could hardly be called a villain) and Present No. 17 and No 18, Cell, Babidi, Dabura, Super Boo and said absorption. Literally every single movie villain with except of maybe Hirudengard (who is treated more as a force of a nature than a villain) and Beerus.

Take these villains and when you strip them of their names...you would literally get the same damn character.

I can't stress it enough. Look at the characters in JoJo's Bizzare Adventure, both "Heroes" and "Villains" Araki creates incredible characters that are given a huge amount of characterization. Some of his best villains like Kira Yoshikage have essentially zero sympathetic qualities, and yet has so many interesting characterizations that make him stand out as a villain that people love him.

Phantom Blood

Hero: Johnathan is established as a loving Shounen hero, willing to love and accept everyone, even his own adopted brother Dio who pretty much turned his life into a living hell.

Villain: Dio Brando, a man we see turned twisted by the abuse and neglect of his father. He's cold, abusive but with a hint of intelligence and cunning.

Battle Tendency

Hero: Joesph, considered one if not the best of the Jojos is a trickster, someone who though with a good heart, is more than willing to play dirty to get the edge. He's a smart mouthed youth with very little of his grandfather's patience.

Villain: Kars, a man with no love for humanity but a deep respect for nature and one that ironically even seems to get twisted when he becomes the Ultimate Life Form.

Stardust Crusaders:

Hero: Kujo Jotaro, a tough as nails, emotionless man, who solves most of his problems by punching the f*** out of them as hard as he can and yet holding a heart of gold inside.

Villain: DIO, the same villain from Part I, and yet he shows a sense of stronger cunning and even respect to humans even if he still feels himself superior. Some material later on even suggest that he began to feel a sense of admiration and love for Johnathan in the end and where as Part I Dio only had other vampires and monsters at his disposal, Part III DIO showed more respect for Stand Using Humans and even held a great amount of respect for Enrico Pucci who would be the main villain in part VI.


Diamond is Unbreakable

Hero: Josuke Higashikata A hero with a close combination of one might say Jotaro and Johnathan. Josuke is someone who is more than willing to let his fist do the talking and is a very emotion youth, quick on feet and ready for action. Unlike Jotaro, Josuke was far more social, easily making friends and despite that thug like exterior was a man with a heart nearly as big as Johnathan's.

Villain: Kira Yoshikage. The villain I talked about before. He was a man who is literally built up as someone you could meet up on the street. Someone not with any sad back story but just a normal person with normal thought processes who by his own admission "just wants a quiet life" and yet his own specific hobby and antics turns him into one of the most memorable villains of the series.

We won't talk about PART V because to be fair...that was probably Araki's weaker point and unfortunately I don't recall much on PART 6 so I'll leave that out though Pucci as a villain is treated as an incredibly complex villain who does what he does out of the respect and admiration for Dio whom he formed a huge friendship with.

Steel Ball Run

Hero: Johnny Joestar. One of the most contrasting hero of the series. Johnny is essentially the exact opposite of Johnathan. Where as Johnanthan was a loving hero capable of empathizing with even his worst of enemies, Johnny was a smug man who thought he was above everyone else and paid dearly for it. He's willing to go to any direction to get what he wants and it ultimately his interaction with Gryo that changes him as a character.

Villain: Funny Valentine. Arguably one of the most sympathetic villains of the series. President Valentine is built as a character who isn't out for power and conquest for the sake of his own ego, but merely to protect his own country even if his ways are rather harsh.

and it isn't just the heroes, many of the side characters are also filled to the brink with great and interesting characterizations, each one given great quirks that stand out. Whether it's the honorable Wham or the eccentric Stroheim. It's clear that unlike Toriyama and especially Toei Animation, Araki is great and creating and establishing unique character, be they heroes or villains.

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lazerbem
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The Ginyu Force and Nappa had some characterization. Nappa still had a sense of loyalty and honor and the Ginyu Force were definitely...different from the rest of the villains.
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+ QueenTD
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My Dear Melancholy,

Why you leave out Dragonball(Part 1) villains?

They were unique for its time and most villains took after King Piccolo.
Edited by QueenTD, Dec 10 2015, 11:59 PM.
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