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Golden Frieza vs Fifth Form Cooler; Equal Power Levels
Topic Started: Nov 28 2015, 08:45 PM (1,991 Views)
+ Pyrus
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Freeza had the moment of opportunity to explode the planet, but it doesn't matter in this battle because they can both survive if one of them does that. If he can survive a planetary explosion, it stands to reason that Cooler can as well.

I wouldn't agree that Cooler is more egotistical than Freeza. He remained calm and collected the entire time up until after he'd beaten Goku into the dust, and the time his supernova had Goku pinned down. Freeza was a jolly box of egotism on Namek, and his ego is the entire reason he lost in ROF.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Freeza also has a tendency to rush horribly in battle and in life itself. He had absolutely no control over his 100% form and then comes in with his Golden Form and creates the exact same problem. You could even say it it with his Mecha Form as well. Even by his own notion he probably wasn't all that much stronger than Goku and yet instantly went to Earth to kill him, no planning, no nothing. He desperately tries to throw his disks at Goku and gets cut in half as a result. His entire fighting style is basically punching something as hard as he possibly can and then screaming angrily when it doesn't work.

Not only that, but he's horribly lazy. We learn in Ressurection F that despite having great potential, he does absolutely nothing and its only when all of his men are basically dead that he actually even gets off his sorry a*** and does something.

Now while Cooler may not be one to train either, he has shown far more control over his power and a far better battle senses than Freeza ever did. Where Freeza was a lazy dick, Cooler was in on the action, one shotting Goku and Piccolo down and telling his men to get the f*** to work. When he found himself at a disadvantage, unlike Freeza, Cooler calmly assessed the situation, faked Goku out with an attack and then hit him with the Supernova, nearly taking him and the entire Earth out at the time.

You know what Freeza did in the same situation? He screamed and threw a fit.

Cooler might shown an air of egotism every so often, but its nothing compared to Freeza and for every bit of ego Cooler might have shown off, he's shown some fairly good thinking skills outside of it.
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Broly12015
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Both Cooler and Frieza r both egotistical idiots that Goku can out smart and make them both go crazy when they are both sitting on their high horses acting like they are the most powerful and smartest warriors in the universe.

In terms of Durability i have to give the battle to Fifth Form Cooler.

Based on that portion of the battle it is :

Golden Frieza < Fifth Form Cooler

Now in terms of being smart during the battle Cooler once again wins in my opinion .

Golden Frieza < Cooler 5th Form

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Darker
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lazerbem
Nov 29 2015, 07:13 PM
What plan? Stand up in the air while giving a speech about his greatness and not notice that his energy ball was being pushed back?
Because he didn't notice that from the very beginning, right? <_<

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Piccolo: Just how many people have you sacrificed?!

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lazerbem
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Darker
Nov 29 2015, 08:42 PM
lazerbem
Nov 29 2015, 07:13 PM
What plan? Stand up in the air while giving a speech about his greatness and not notice that his energy ball was being pushed back?
Because he didn't notice that from the very beginning, right? <_<

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You know what he did right after that gif? Absolutely nothing. He just floated there and did absolutely nothing. Even when the ball was flying for his face, his only reaction was to throw a tiny blast at it and then get hit by it
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Now while Cooler may not be one to train either, he has shown far more control over his power and a far better battle senses than Freeza ever did. Where Freeza was a lazy dick, Cooler was in on the action, one shotting Goku and Piccolo down and telling his men to get the f*** to work

Freeza did these things too. He blew Dende away because he was a healer and he transformed to his final form just in case Gohan had another rage boost. Cooler's management was just as irresponsible as Freeza's, he barely offered any kind of specific direction beyond telling them to spray everywhere.
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When he found himself at a disadvantage, unlike Freeza, Cooler calmly assessed the situation, faked Goku out with an attack and then hit him with the Supernova, nearly taking him and the entire Earth out at the time.

You know what Freeza did in the same situation? He screamed and threw a fit.

Cooler had the advantage of prior knowledge. He knew Goku had something up his sleeve to beat Freeza, Freeza on the other hand had little clue as to what was up with Goku. Also, Goku was more serious against Cooler, with Freeza, he was willing to talk more. Once Freeza got the message, he went to blowing up the planet really quickly too.
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Cooler might shown an air of egotism every so often, but its nothing compared to Freeza and for every bit of ego Cooler might have shown off, he's shown some fairly good thinking skills outside of it.

Cooler giving himself a speech twice in order to congratulate himself surpasses Freeza. The first time was justified, he had Goku beaten. The second time was a display of massive ineptitude as he basically just watches the blast slowly wear away at Goku. Freeza gloating over Goku's beaten body is entirely different from Cooler gloating over an SSJ Goku who is still very much fighting back. Cooler doesn't even do anything when the blast gets lifted up
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

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Freeza did these things too. He blew Dende away because he was a healer and he transformed to his final form just in case Gohan had another rage boost. Cooler's management was just as irresponsible as Freeza's, he barely offered any kind of specific direction beyond telling them to spray everywhere.


No he didn't. Freeza transformed out of sheer whim.

Chapter: 303 (DBZ 109), P11.4
Context: Freeza prepares to transform into his fourth form
Freeza: “Though it’d be simple to pulverize you all in this form…Before you die, I’ll show you the ultimate power, more fearsome than death!”

Quote:
 
Cooler had the advantage of prior knowledge. He knew Goku had something up his sleeve to beat Freeza, Freeza on the other hand had little clue as to what was up with Goku. Also, Goku was more serious against Cooler, with Freeza, he was willing to talk more. Once Freeza got the message, he went to blowing up the planet really quickly too.


Prior knowledge? Cooler didn't have s*** knowledge on anything. The only thing he knew about Goku was that he somehow killed Freeza and he tried rather hard to make sure he was dead too, one shotting him and sending out his men to find a body. I'm not sure what your talking about here.

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Cooler giving himself a speech twice in order to congratulate himself surpasses Freeza. The first time was justified, he had Goku beaten. The second time was a display of massive ineptitude as he basically just watches the blast slowly wear away at Goku. Freeza gloating over Goku's beaten body is entirely different from Cooler gloating over an SSJ Goku who is still very much fighting back. Cooler doesn't even do anything when the blast gets lifted up


Yeah, in both those cases Goku was losing. He was literally either beaten on the ground or in the last part, was mere moments from destroying the earth. That wasn't ineptitude that was just villainous gloating. It's not like Cooler was gloating right as the ball was coming at him and then went "Hahahahah I am the best in the...oh f*** where'd that come from!?

Doesn't do anything? He didn't have time to do anything. He saw it rising up was like "What's going on here?" and then gets it smacked right into his face. It was clear that he was in state of shock and uncertainty.

So again how that makes Cooler less competent than Mr. Lazy Rage-o-holic whose has literally made the same mistake twice in his life, constantly rushing into things at least three times in his life. Heck, if you take Super's apparent incarnation into this, Freeza is even stupider than he was before.

Cooler has shown to be on his toes constantly, getting straight into business. With far better control over his power and unlike almost every villain, is surprisingly pragmatic in his approach, keeping a relatively calm head even when the situation wasn't in his favor. Freeza on a good day might be able to do this, as with the whole Sorbet Ring thing, but its darn clear that Freeza's emotions get the best of him almost all the time while Cooler has a much more levelheaded approach to situations.



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Darker
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lazerbem
Nov 29 2015, 09:38 PM
Darker
Nov 29 2015, 08:42 PM
lazerbem
Nov 29 2015, 07:13 PM
What plan? Stand up in the air while giving a speech about his greatness and not notice that his energy ball was being pushed back?
Because he didn't notice that from the very beginning, right? <_<

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You know what he did right after that gif? Absolutely nothing. He just floated there and did absolutely nothing. Even when the ball was flying for his face, his only reaction was to throw a tiny blast at it and then get hit by it.
My assumption was that he had wasted all of his energy, and the only thing he could do was try to push it back with his sheer strength, which wasn't going to happen.
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Piccolo: Just how many people have you sacrificed?!

Cell: Sacrifice? Hmph, rubbish! On the contrary, it is an honor to become a fraction of my power.
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Frost Demon Mint
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Pyrus
Nov 29 2015, 05:43 AM
How did Cooler do worse?
Once Goku became a super saiyan, Cooler had nothing.

A full power punch to the stomach and a big ki flamethrower didn't even move Goku, and once his supernova was charged, he just kind of gave up. Maybe he was too weak to push it, but he could have detonated it with just a weaker blast, or maybe moved out of the way of the slow moving ball of kill.

Also, he's not smart enough to try destroying a planet when he's outmatched badly.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

I've literally explained this. Cooler fought a much stronger Movie 5 Goku. You can't say Freeza is better because he did better against a completely different Goku.

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Also, he's not smart enough to try destroying a planet when he's outmatched badly.


This is literally what Cooler did though. Once he figured out his usual attacks weren't working, he opted for a different strategy and nearly won with it. I'm sorry what in the world are you talking about? Cooler literally took a situation that was not in his favor and instead of screaming and ranting about how it wasn't fair, he calmly addressed the situation, thought of a new plan of attack and went with it and again, he nearly won with it.
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Dark Matter
Nov 30 2015, 05:35 PM
I've literally explained this. Cooler fought a much stronger Movie 5 Goku. You can't say Freeza is better because he did better against a completely different Goku.

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Also, he's not smart enough to try destroying a planet when he's outmatched badly.


This is literally what Cooler did though. Once he figured out his usual attacks weren't working, he opted for a different strategy and nearly won with it. I'm sorry what in the world are you talking about? Cooler literally took a situation that was not in his favor and instead of screaming and ranting about how it wasn't fair, he calmly addressed the situation, thought of a new plan of attack and went with it and again, he nearly won with it.
What Freeza (At least FnF Freeza) would have done is just blown up the planet, not bothered to try killing Goku in that very same way. Cooler's idea was, "I'll just attack him again", nothing to do with the planet. That the attack would've destroyed Earth as well was not strategy. Also, I'm not talking about Namek Freeza vs SSJ Goku, I'm talking about Golden Freeza vs SSJB Goku. After Freeza was weak enough that his attacks wouldn't hurt Goku (The same way Cooler's did nothing from the start) Freeza still managed to get a few hits in and make a few moves that did a good bit of damage. All Cooler did was push Goku back a bit.

Besides, Cooler's supernova was nothing compared to Goku's kamehameha, if Goku didn't try to to physically block it and just fired away at it, Cooler wouldn't even have pushed him at all with the move. Saying he almost won that fight is an enormous stretch, too, considering Goku was still able to gather enough energy in a very restricted scenario to push back an attack clearly far stronger than Cooler himself. And, if Cooler were smarter than Freeza, there's no reason to believe a nova strike type technique wasn't an option to escape the beam before he hit the sun. He's just not clever enough.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

The only reason Freeza even blew up the planet was because he rage quit after getting his butt handed to him by Goku and Vegeta respectfully. There was absolutely no planning here at all. Freeza did the equivalent of throwing your controller down and turning the television off. You want to talk RoF Freeza? This is the guy who literally made the same mistake he did on Namek, learning nothing of past doings and rushed to fight Goku.

And what happened? Despite Freeza having a power advantage, Goku played Freeza like a fool, made him waste energy and then at the end, beat him down once more. Then Vegeta came over, beat Freeza down again and Freeza with no other options blew up the planet in a state or kid induced rage.

And you're still talking about two different Gokus. You can't compare two different Goku's and expect to get the same result.

Cooler didn't do anything? He threw a punch, realized Goku was stronger than expected and opted for a different strategy. Freeza's entire plan from the start was to punch Goku as hard as he can and when it didn't work, he literally threw a fit, screaming about how unfair it was.

There is no way you can call someone like Freeza, Namek or RoF a better fighter than Cooler. Yeah Cooler did almost win, he had Goku pressed against the Earth, the blast breaking down and it was only by using a KHH that Goku managed to win. Freeza against Goku never got that close to winning without abusing Sorbet's Ring.

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lazerbem
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No he didn't. Freeza transformed out of sheer whim.

Chapter: 303 (DBZ 109), P11.4
Context: Freeza prepares to transform into his fourth form
Freeza: “Though it’d be simple to pulverize you all in this form…Before you die, I’ll show you the ultimate power, more fearsome than death!”

He said that outloud, yes, but him talking to himself says a different story. At least in Viz, he says
"I don't believe in that ridiculous Super Saiyan Legend...but still, it doesn't hurt to be careful...That brat and Vegeta are already growing more powerful..."
It's only in the page after this that he says the quote you brought up
Quote:
 
It's not like Cooler was gloating right as the ball was coming at him and then went "Hahahahah I am the best in the...oh f*** where'd that come from!?

Doesn't do anything? He didn't have time to do anything. He saw it rising up was like "What's going on here?" and then gets it smacked right into his face. It was clear that he was in state of shock and uncertainty.

I rewatched the scene, and here's the numbers
The ball is stopped for 8 seconds. Do you know what Cooler does during those 8 seconds that the ball stops moving? He boasts. But you might say that he was just thinking Goku was giving it his all to stop it, so let's see how long it takes when the ball is actually lifted up for him to react. It takes him 2 seconds to stop giving himself a pat on the back and actually look down at the rising ball. When we cut to Goku under the ball lifting it up, it takes him 15 seconds to throw and lift it the entire way. It also takes 15 seconds for Cooler to react to the ball that is slowly rising up.

That is 25 seconds of him standing there without doing a single thing while Goku lifts it up. He was so confident in his Supernova scheme that he didn't do a single thing until it was flying for his face
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Dark Matter
Nov 30 2015, 07:31 PM
The only reason Freeza even blew up the planet was because he rage quit after getting his butt handed to him by Goku and Vegeta respectfully. There was absolutely no planning here at all. Freeza did the equivalent of throwing your controller down and turning the television off. You want to talk RoF Freeza? This is the guy who literally made the same mistake he did on Namek, learning nothing of past doings and rushed to fight Goku.

And what happened? Despite Freeza having a power advantage, Goku played Freeza like a fool, made him waste energy and then at the end, beat him down once more. Then Vegeta came over, beat Freeza down again and Freeza with no other options blew up the planet in a state or kid induced rage.

And you're still talking about two different Gokus. You can't compare two different Goku's and expect to get the same result.

Cooler didn't do anything? He threw a punch, realized Goku was stronger than expected and opted for a different strategy. Freeza's entire plan from the start was to punch Goku as hard as he can and when it didn't work, he literally threw a fit, screaming about how unfair it was.

There is no way you can call someone like Freeza, Namek or RoF a better fighter than Cooler. Yeah Cooler did almost win, he had Goku pressed against the Earth, the blast breaking down and it was only by using a KHH that Goku managed to win. Freeza against Goku never got that close to winning without abusing Sorbet's Ring.

Pushing someone is not almost winning. Vegeta once pushed Recoome back, therefore Namek Vegeta is basically as strong as Raccoon?

Okay.

You're also hilariously failing at simplifying Freeza's fighting skills. "All he did was punch", except a bunch of examples that have been given of him outfighting Goku even as he was losing power. You refuse to touch the fact that he tricked Goku into lowering his guard, because it instantly puts Cooler way lower than him. Cooler lowers his guard constantly, Freeza' going to take advantage of that. Not in a "hit him once" way, in a "powerful attack he can't possibly recover from" way. That's the biggest difference, here. Cooler uses Goku's lowered guard to build up energy, talk about how great he is, then attack. Freeza uses Goku's lowered guard to instantly cripple him beyond reasonable recovery, and then gloats. There is no possible way Cooler could win this.
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EMIYA
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lazerbem
Nov 30 2015, 08:52 PM
Quote:
 
No he didn't. Freeza transformed out of sheer whim.

Chapter: 303 (DBZ 109), P11.4
Context: Freeza prepares to transform into his fourth form
Freeza: “Though it’d be simple to pulverize you all in this form…Before you die, I’ll show you the ultimate power, more fearsome than death!”

He said that outloud, yes, but him talking to himself says a different story. At least in Viz, he says
"I don't believe in that ridiculous Super Saiyan Legend...but still, it doesn't hurt to be careful...That brat and Vegeta are already growing more powerful..."
It's only in the page after this that he says the quote you brought up
Quote:
 
It's not like Cooler was gloating right as the ball was coming at him and then went "Hahahahah I am the best in the...oh f*** where'd that come from!?

Doesn't do anything? He didn't have time to do anything. He saw it rising up was like "What's going on here?" and then gets it smacked right into his face. It was clear that he was in state of shock and uncertainty.

I rewatched the scene, and here's the numbers
The ball is stopped for 8 seconds. Do you know what Cooler does during those 8 seconds that the ball stops moving? He boasts. But you might say that he was just thinking Goku was giving it his all to stop it, so let's see how long it takes when the ball is actually lifted up for him to react. It takes him 2 seconds to stop giving himself a pat on the back and actually look down at the rising ball. When we cut to Goku under the ball lifting it up, it takes him 15 seconds to throw and lift it the entire way. It also takes 15 seconds for Cooler to react to the ball that is slowly rising up.

That is 25 seconds of him standing there without doing a single thing while Goku lifts it up. He was so confident in his Supernova scheme that he didn't do a single thing until it was flying for his face
You're seriously going to try to use real world time to make an argument here? It's obvious what happened. Cooler was pushing Goku down and then unexpectedly Goku pushed it back, catching him off guard. But for sake of things let's just say Cooler had moments lapse of judgement. One mistake here, which isn't even played out as a mistake, just a moment of issue that Cooler didn't capsize on.

How many times has Freeza made the same mistake? At least twice. How many times has he constantly rushed into battle, throwing a hissy fit whenever things don't go his way? Every single time. How many times has Freeza been shown to be a horribly lazy character who won't even get out of his chair until all of his men are dead? Every single time. The only time Freeza has ever shown any ingenuity in his entire life was Sorbets Ring and fair enough for him that's thinking outside the box, more than he's ever done in his life.

But in the end, he's still a raging character who let's his rushed emotions get the better of him all the time and is constantly played a fool because of it. Where Cooler actually managed to turn a situation that wasn't in his favor around for a moment. The exact opposite happened to Freeza. He had a situation where he held the advantage and got it turned completely around on him.

So even if Cooler makes a mistake here, one that isn't even treated as a mistake, it's nothing compared to the mistakes Freeza has made and the simple fact that Cooler still managed to keep a straight head on his shoulders even when things weren't looking so great for him. No matter how you try to move it around or something, its clear Cooler has shown a hell of a lot more competency within his two movies alone, then Freeza has ever shown in his entire existence.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Double post

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Pushing someone is not almost winning. Vegeta once pushed Recoome back, therefore Namek Vegeta is basically as strong as Raccoon?

Okay.

You're also hilariously failing at simplifying Freeza's fighting skills. "All he did was punch", except a bunch of examples that have been given of him outfighting Goku even as he was losing power. You refuse to touch the fact that he tricked Goku into lowering his guard, because it instantly puts Cooler way lower than him. Cooler lowers his guard constantly, Freeza' going to take advantage of that. Not in a "hit him once" way, in a "powerful attack he can't possibly recover from" way. That's the biggest difference, here. Cooler uses Goku's lowered guard to build up energy, talk about how great he is, then attack. Freeza uses Goku's lowered guard to instantly cripple him beyond reasonable recovery, and then gloats. There is no possible way Cooler could win this.


Yeah when your clearly struggling with an attack that's literally pressing you into the earth, mere moments from destroying it, you are losing. That's what happened to Goku. He was severely struggling with the attack.

Freeza never outfought Goku at all. The only advantage he ever got was during the beam duel. Every other time, while Freeza could hold his own, Goku was landing more and stronger hits and the fight barely lasted that long before Freeza just popped out and Goku was still raring to go. He's hardly shown any amount of fighting skill or ingenuity on his part.

This is actually his problem. He rushes into everything and doesn't think things through. Goku actually calls him out on this, telling him to work on his fighting skills and then RoF comes along and he literally does the same thing. Like he literally didn't learn a thing.

As for your last part. What do you think Cooler was going to do? Give Sauzer a nice Ring and tell him to shoot Goku when things look bad? Give Freeza some credit it was nice of him to finally think outside the box for once and actually be smart but that doesn't stop the fact that he's made constant mistakes and let's emotions get the best of him all the time.

EDIT: In fact, while Sorbet's Ring shows that Freeza can think, it also shows that he can't even win a fight with his own power. He had to literally rely on someone else to finally get the drop on Goku. Cooler at least used his own power to get the advantage. He didn't tell Sauzer to get the drop on Goku.
Edited by EMIYA, Nov 30 2015, 09:53 PM.
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