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| Little writeup about battle powers and asspulls | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 27 2015, 08:35 AM (847 Views) | |
| FutureProtagonist | Nov 27 2015, 08:35 AM Post #1 |
Quwrof Wrlccywrlir
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(spoilers abound below for Bleach, Dragon Ball and Hunter X Hunter) I have what seems to be a bit of an unorthodox view about battle powers, (across all series) and sometimes when I try to present this view, I do a poor job of explaining exactly what it is I’m talking about, and it comes out to something that’s kind of nonsensical. People who I’ve argued with in the DB Super section can attest to this. I’m going to try and explain a bit more precisely how I see battle powers in these stories, and hell, maybe I’ll tackle a few other topics as well. I’ll start with powerups. If I had to explain in one phrase, my view on them is this: every powerup should come in tandem with some kind of character payoff. A powerup that comes from just training a bunch, especially offscreen, where the character comes back on screen basically the same as they were before, feel hollow to me. Since this is a DBZ forum, we’ll give some DBZ examples. On the side of hollow, we have Goku’s offscreen training between the Cell and Boo Arcs; Goku before and after gaining that ridiculous powerup is completely the same. His manner hasn’t changed, his view of the world hasn’t changed, he hasn’t been challenged. The same can be said of his training on the ship going to Namek, training at Kaio’s, the Super Saiyan God ritual, etc. The only attribute of Goku’s that changes is his battle power number, and that’s something that means absolutely nothing to me. Besides enabling him to beat stronger opponents, what purpose does a battle power quantity serve? Really, what is it? What’s the payoff for him gaining this power? Nothing. We’ve already established that Goku trains hard and easily picks up techniques, and we did that within the first few chapters when he was a kid. I don’t need it reestablished 200-ish chapters in. I would be just as happy with the Saiyan Arc if Vegeta showed up a day after Raditz was defeated and the same scenario played out, as far as Goku is concerned; the only issue is that his battle power would have been too low. That’s an inconsistency that I can easily overlook because his journey down Snake Way and his training at Kaio’s planet had no effect on Goku the person, but perhaps his conflict with Vegeta did. That was the important part. Granted, it would have been really bizarre, and no writer in their right mind would do that, but Toriyama could’ve, and I think it would have been basically fine. On the side of interesting, we have Goku’s transformation to Super Saiyan. So many interesting things happened here. (though their impact had dulled by the end of the fight) Goku transforms to Super Saiyan; the moment we’ve been waiting for! But it’s not really. Goku’s mind is unraveling at the frustration and anger; he’s losing everything that made him Goku, to the point where he can’t trust himself around his own son anymore. He’s brought down as low as he’s ever been, left alone to let go and destroy his most hated enemy, but through his control and compassion, he regains his sanity, spares Freeza and reminds us why he’s the greatest fighter in the universe. It’s not because his battle power is incredibly high, it’s because of his restraint and his respect for life. His victory over Freeza is an earned reward for truly overcoming his bloodlust and desire for revenge. It wasn’t about him getting fifty times stronger; that’s just mechanics, details put there to appease the audience. Now, I’ve criticised Goku’s actions in the past, but I’m just accepting what the story was trying to accomplish here; despite Goku’s actions seeming to be those of a amoral thrill-seeker when examined closely, I’m going to give Toriyama the benefit of the doubt for this one. I’ll I’m going to talk about asspulls, plot-induced stupidity, plotholes, etc. To put it simply, I generally don’t care. I’ll give an example, and it’s going to be from Bleach (spoilers below). Yes, I hate Bleach as much as anyone (more perhaps), but it’s done some things right, and I’m going to give you my view on oft-touted example of Bleach stupidity, where I believe the criticism is way beside the point. Specifically, the fight between Rukia and Aaroniero. It’s by far the best part of the Hueco Mundo Arc, and may honestly be one the of the best fights in the whole series because of how strongly character driven it is. I don’t care that Rukia’s third dance technique was an asspull. What matters was what she said to Aaroniero before killing him, what matters is the effect Aaroniero’s psychological manipulation had on her; what matters was her overcoming her guilt over killing Kaien Shiba, in a way that made me feel something and that made sense. The buildup throughout that fight, the conflict between Rukia and Aaroniero, even the drawn-out flashback, all of that was excellent, and her victory was earned, even if the method was something made up out of the blue. Would it have been better if that power had been built up to as well? Of course; it would have firmly cemented that fight as really being great, (lightning in a bottle, obv) but it doesn’t hurt it that much. The emotional, character-driven core is strong during that fight, and that should be the ultimate goal of every fight scene that’s ever been written. It’s conflict between two characters in the purest sense. Because Bleach sucks, I will point out that Ichigo’s training in the Dangai was the biggest pile of crap that ever graced a manga page and it sucked twenty-two chodes. His powerup against Ulquiorra sucked too, but it wasn’t quite as bad. The effect it had on him really meant nothing in the long run, but at least there was some kind of lasting effect. Eh. Well, hopefully that makes my feelings a bit more clear. Battle powers should be inextricably linked to character development. Battle power increases without character development, without struggle are meaningless and I don’t care. For fun, one more powerup that I enjoyed: Hunter x Hunter: Naturally, I’ll go straight to Chimera Ant and the famous powerup that Gon received against Neferpitou. Gon is a really neat character; he’s a deconstruction of your standard Shonen protagonist that screams emotionally at everything, is incapable of dealing with loss and is overall mentally unstable. For Gon, this is a kind of frightening, unsettling quality of his, whereas in some series, (Naruto, Dragon Ball, etc) it’s supposed to be what makes us root for whomever. Looking at the powerup from a sort of superficial perspective, it’s not much different from any other Shonen powerup, but the last thing you think about when it happens high Gon’s power level has gotten. You worry about the consequences it’s going to have for him, how it will affect his psyche, how others will react to it, how he’ll react to it, etc. This is really a perfect example of how to use powerups; it had a proper buildup, it felt natural and changed the person who received it. Could you imagine how lame it would have felt if Gon just got stronger than Neferpitou through training offscreen? Edited by FutureProtagonist, Nov 27 2015, 08:38 AM.
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| Tinny | Nov 27 2015, 03:50 PM Post #2 |
 
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I get it personally, gaining more strength doesn't mean anything when the character is the same. The character in question needs to change or have something revealed about him that gives him the strength to continue on. Training is irrelevant units it reveals something about the person training. I mean I don't anyone is gonna say Goku was more deserving of when he got ssj3 then when he got ssj, even with the emphasis on training. |
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| + Steve | Nov 27 2015, 06:30 PM Post #3 |
Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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Oh boy you've not read the last few chapters have you?  Spoilers ahead for anyone else obviously. I agree with you about Gon, by far the best powerup I have ever witnessed. A lot of people felt like it came out of nowhere but it's already established how it works in the series really, the whole condition thing for abilities. He got so much power because he sacrificed ALL of his power. It wasn't some lame plot bulls*** or random a*** power pulled out nowhere like you see in most series, the sort of thing that just leaves you like "Well why the f*** didn't they use that before!?" As for the overall topic...I agree and disagree. It certainly makes for a better story for strength increases and such to have a cause and to affect characters in some way. But other times like when a series is just for fun it's not really necessary. Like in Toriko there's really not much substance to the story or anything but it's a fun read because of the fights, insane strength and DAT HYPE. If a story is trying to be deep, inspirational, meaningful and whatever else ever and it's just a case of "he needs a powerup therefor he got one" then it's definitely dull. Especially since 100% of the time it's so damn predictable even if there's literally no build up. Oh no this enemy seems unbeatable...well the series will continue somehow so I guess the MC is gonna get mad or everyone will put their strength in to him...yay. I had it spoiled for me but I doubt anyone watching or reading HxH had any idea what was going to happen with Gon. We probably all thought "Oh s*** Gon's got so powerful he's going to go toe to toe with a Royal Guard!" standard offscreen meh powerup BS with some cool build up. But no, Pitou would have destroyed Gon and that was made very apparent. He didn't get unreasonably strong by lifting some weights and punching thin air he sacrificed his whole future for revenge, he got it and that would have been it. On top of that I really like how the situation was resolved afterwards, Gon made a huge sacrifice and while he did get wished back to normal it wasn't so simple as go find some magical balls and make everything alright, sacrifices had to be made to bring Gon back and he has to shoulder that burden from now on. DBZ handles that side of things in the most magnificently awful ways I've ever seen. Vegeta doesn't give a s*** that he saw a hole blasted through his sons chest, Goku is pretty relaxed about Gohan having his neck broken all things considered and nobody is ever really adversely affected by death or serious injury at all except way back in Dragon Ball when it didn't take 5 minutes to gather the Dragon Balls and fix everything with no issues. (which is also why I give GT a lot of credit because they actually though hey that's pretty bulls*** surely there should be consequences?) |
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| Billa | Dec 2 2015, 07:38 AM Post #4 |
Thala na Gethu!
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Among ocean of mediocre/absymal shounen protagonists (Naruto, Ichigo, Luffy, Natsu, Ed), Gon is by far most compelling. He is a nice chap. But alas, he is also a derivative of Son Goku: Innocent, big hearted, likable guy Difference between DBZ & all those shows in terms of powerups, battle-powers & asspulls? Its simplicity It doesnt take itself seriously in the pretention of being "deep" Goku as character has "developed" in 153 episodes of DragonBall His glorious days of character-modification post-Super Holy Water (vs King Piccolo) & subsequent Mr. Popo & Kami-Sama training (vs Piccolo Jr) was over. As for Gon, it was absolute crap Kite died. Power-up. Smash Pitou. Nanika Magic. Gon heals. Kite reborn. Be Hunter again WTF?!?? Kite's death & Gon's power-up was treated with such weight, only to be thrown outside the window and BAM! Gon's fine Its as if complete Chimera Arc gets a Fast Forward & Gon was just like he was during the Greed Island Arc. Sorry, but Togashi just f**** with the asspull And dont even get me started on "glorious" Nakamaboy & Kurousaki-kun bimbo asspulls |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Dec 2 2015, 07:44 AM Post #5 |
 
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Hahahah. Made me lol. Anyway, good post |
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| + Steve | Dec 2 2015, 06:15 PM Post #6 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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How was it crap? It wasn't as simple as you were putting it at all. Kite died and Gon didn't just vow for revenge as standard he went in a really dark place, it deeply affected him compared to most shounen protagonists. Like Naruto after Jiraiya is killed he comes out of it a stronger person and defeats the guy who killed his mentor. Gon goes a bit crazy...as a 12 year old probably would, especially once he sees how alike the monsters he's pictured in his head are to people. His power up would have killed him too that's pretty rare in shounen usually if there's negatives they still survive just fine or recover after a while, he was going to die and nobody could fix it. The wish to heal him wasn't without consequence and the journey to heal him was a dangerous one. Not like "Lol go get a magic radar and fly around for an hour picking balls up then we can wish for whatever we want" He's the main character, course he had to come back somehow. Has Gon even done anything since he came back? Pretty sure we don't know whether or not he's as powerful or weakened in any way, manga hasn't progressed far from where the anime ends anyway. |
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Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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| Billa | Dec 3 2015, 04:50 AM Post #7 |
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Thala na Gethu!
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Lol Dont bring Jiraiya & Nakamaboy in here. Not worth the discussion Kite was a fun guy & his attacks can be deadly af. Jiraiya was perverted farce. Nothing more for me. Now dont start a whole new post on "why Jiraiya isnt a perverted farce" Likewise, Gon was a likable kid. I dont give a flyin f*** if Nakamboy is as deep as garbage-bin. He is just bordering on annoyance. For a fun-loving, free-wheeling spirited Gon, mere sight of watching Kite's arm being torn sent him into a spiral of darkness. Who wouldnt? The kid looked up to Kite almost on the same level his Dad To which 60% of the CA Arc built-up to. Gon trains. Retrive Kite. Pitou's payback. He couldnt give a s*** abt rest of Chimera Ants or King or Netero All he wanted was....Pitou. Who was responsible for Kite's horrifying state HXH has all along built a reputation for itself. Screw stereotypical & cliched moments. Thats what Naruto's been shoving over 200 years It broke typical shounen moulds with Crime Thriller, the York New Arc where brain is put over brawn Next, one BIG game. Again, mind-games Follow it up a notch with dark Chimera Ant Arc & the scale & scope has never been bigger Even Hunter's Association joined & the build-up till the Invasion was perfect beyond words Not to forget how HXH has always had this focus on Gon's slightly twisted sense of justice. Right frm guys like Hisoka, to Genthru to Razor, all of them at 1 point had called Gon as "kaibozu" or "bakemono". There's always been a foreshadowing on Gon's dark side to which CA Arc build up Till, you screw-up with asspulls Gon's power-up would've meant alot had it resulted in an everlasting effect. Considerinv how Togashi has always put forth its writing than fanservice, thats how it should have been. But Nope! Magics & BAM! |
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| FutureProtagonist | Dec 3 2015, 05:00 AM Post #8 |
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Quwrof Wrlccywrlir
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But he's not really. I mean, he is, but he's portrayed in a much different way. He's not portrayed as likeable or bighearted, he's poorly-adjusted and psychopathic. The bighearted and likeable is just what you see on the surface; he's incapable of dealing with loss like a reasonable human being, (like most shonen leads) but instead of him turning Super Saiyan being a "woo-hoo go Gon!" moment it's a "wow, Gon is a really crazy person who can't accept things not going his own way without having an epic tantrum" moment. He's a deconstruction of your Luffys, Gokus and Narutos. And besides, even if it didn't have a huge amount of buildup (which it did), it wouldn't have ruined the moment, which is basically what the point of this little essay was. Edited by FutureProtagonist, Dec 3 2015, 05:02 AM.
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| Billa | Dec 3 2015, 09:51 AM Post #9 |
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Thala na Gethu!
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@ Future Not neccesarily Gon gotta turn into Super Saiyan-mode or anything As I said, the kid has kinda twisted sense of justice/truth & would go to any length for it Like da Monk who smashed Gon at Hunters Exam. Yet still refused to give up Argued with Nobunaga abt friendship (while Arm Wrestling) dezpite Phantom Trope members were right there & wouldve slit his throat Again, had a stupidly, daring gamble against Genthru & da MF even sacrificed his arm just to WIN in his own terms. Like DARN! Had it wasnt for Angle's Breath, Gon would be a maimed Mummy His stubborn, yet good-hearted nature may be ordinary. But his "monstrous" determination & sense of justice makes even me (23 old boy) feel awe & creepy at da same time |
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| lazerbem | Dec 4 2015, 03:35 AM Post #10 |
 
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Little off-topic, but Gon's big transformation reminded me so much of the Anti-Spiral 
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| Darker | Dec 4 2015, 06:21 AM Post #11 |
The Lord of the Dark
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Gon looks way creepier, just saying. If Anti-Spiral stopped drooling like a moron, maaaaybe he'd be more intimidating... I don't know who Gon is anyway, the only Gon I know is this little fella. 
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 Piccolo: Just how many people have you sacrificed?! Cell: Sacrifice? Hmph, rubbish! On the contrary, it is an honor to become a fraction of my power. | |
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| ekrolo2 | Dec 4 2015, 12:16 PM Post #12 |
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