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SSj1 Gotenks Pre vs SSj3 Goku with halo and Kid Buu
Topic Started: Nov 23 2015, 03:40 AM (1,128 Views)
Notaka
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Always Wright

The team wins.

They're already close to Gotenks's power.
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"My name is Kakyoin Noriaki!"

Thanks to Graffiti for the Sig!

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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

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Show me scans proving pre rosat gotenks was superior to full power ss3 goku. And no not goku guessing gotenks power before he even senses it cause he still needed korin to see if he was weaker than cell


Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”

Right from Goku's mouth himself. He out right states Gotenks would be stronger than him.

And to add more to that.

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”

Of course we learn later that Goku could have defeated Boo had he gone all out. Yet here, Piccolo is the clear impression that even if Goku had gone all out, Boo would've still been stronger. Therefore, he needs Gotenks to be stronger than a Fat Boo he believes to be stronger than Goku going all out. Something which he never denies, he in fact says Gotenks' power is pretty damn good and just wishes to test his speed (henceforth leading to the aspect that the gap between Goku and Gotenks may not be all that big at this point)

But the point that is is such, you literally have a statement here in which Goku outright tells Piccolo that Gotenks will be stronger than him. The only thing that was proven wrong by his statement was the fact that he couldn't defeat Majin Boo. His statement about Gotenks still remains clear. Not only does he state this, he gives the impression that Gotenks is not only going to be stronger than the power he showed against Boo (which Piccolo was under the impression Goku was holding back at the time too) he'll have to be stronger than a Boo that's stronger than this SSJ3 Goku.

So yes, Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. The fact that Goku himself states this should be pretty clear I think.
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Dark Matter
Nov 24 2015, 07:03 AM
miguelnuva
Nov 24 2015, 05:44 AM
The duo smash Gotenks. Gotenks only needs to surpass SSJ3 Goku by a little bit.

Kid Buu: 1320
SSJ3 Goku: 1450
MSSJ Gotenks: 1500

Something like that works for me.

Also Meta Cooler never dominated Goku and Vegeta together. He dominated them separately. The fight was more a triple threat at first. Once they agreed to work together they took him down in no time.

And they weren't exhausted since they transformed three times after the fight, once after being drained again.
Have you not seen movie 6? Cooler was absolutely dominating both of them. He was practically running circles around them. He came in choking the s*** out of Goku and it was only by a surprised attack that Vegeta got a hit. He then went up, started to manhandle Vegeta nearly as bad as Freeza did, smashed his guts open and then blew both him and Goku straight away. The only reason they even got any hits on him was the simple fact that Cooler basically ran into their last attack and in the end, it left them completely exhausted and barley able to move.

It's damn clear Cooler was dominating both of them. He made them look like fools and it was clear how desperate the two Saiyans were getting. So yeah, he kicked BOTH their butts.

Goku and Vegeta may not have thrown in a combined hit until then, but they were certainly attacking together and were being basically played with by Cooler.



Yes I saw movie 6 and Cooler was dominating them both donto the fact they weren't fighting together. Goku and Vegeta were attacking the same opponet but they weren't figh5ing together till the end of thw fight and when they did they toasted Meta Cooler.

Maybe you need to watch the fight again.
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Gogeta power placement
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

miguelnuva
Nov 24 2015, 01:14 PM
Dark Matter
Nov 24 2015, 07:03 AM
miguelnuva
Nov 24 2015, 05:44 AM
The duo smash Gotenks. Gotenks only needs to surpass SSJ3 Goku by a little bit.

Kid Buu: 1320
SSJ3 Goku: 1450
MSSJ Gotenks: 1500

Something like that works for me.

Also Meta Cooler never dominated Goku and Vegeta together. He dominated them separately. The fight was more a triple threat at first. Once they agreed to work together they took him down in no time.

And they weren't exhausted since they transformed three times after the fight, once after being drained again.
Have you not seen movie 6? Cooler was absolutely dominating both of them. He was practically running circles around them. He came in choking the s*** out of Goku and it was only by a surprised attack that Vegeta got a hit. He then went up, started to manhandle Vegeta nearly as bad as Freeza did, smashed his guts open and then blew both him and Goku straight away. The only reason they even got any hits on him was the simple fact that Cooler basically ran into their last attack and in the end, it left them completely exhausted and barley able to move.

It's damn clear Cooler was dominating both of them. He made them look like fools and it was clear how desperate the two Saiyans were getting. So yeah, he kicked BOTH their butts.

Goku and Vegeta may not have thrown in a combined hit until then, but they were certainly attacking together and were being basically played with by Cooler.



Yes I saw movie 6 and Cooler was dominating them both donto the fact they weren't fighting together. Goku and Vegeta were attacking the same opponet but they weren't figh5ing together till the end of thw fight and when they did they toasted Meta Cooler.

Maybe you need to watch the fight again.
So two opponents attacking the same character basically at the same time (it's not like Goku tagged out and waited before tagging back in) is not considering attacking the same time? You do realize there's a difference between attacking together and combining your attacks into one. Goku and Vegeta were attacking together, both of them went at Cooler, perhaps with their own mindsets but they were certainly attacking together.

It's just like with Super 13. Nobody was combining attacks to defeat him but they were all certainly going at him together and getting their respective faces stomped too.

EDIT: I think its pretty clear really. Goku and Vegeta as individuals can't defeat Cooler despite both of them attacking together, same way that those in Movie 7 can't defeat Super 13 or those in Movie 8 can't defeat Broly. Once people start building up or combinging their power or attacks together in some way (same way with Movie 10 I suppose) that's when they can overpower their opponent but its made obvious just how little Goku and Vegeta were doing simply trying to attack individually together than instead of trying to combine their attack in one go.

Edited by EMIYA, Nov 24 2015, 03:56 PM.
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Timothy
Nov 24 2015, 09:01 AM
Dark Matter
Nov 24 2015, 07:03 AM
miguelnuva
Nov 24 2015, 05:44 AM
The duo smash Gotenks. Gotenks only needs to surpass SSJ3 Goku by a little bit.

Kid Buu: 1320
SSJ3 Goku: 1450
MSSJ Gotenks: 1500

Something like that works for me.

Also Meta Cooler never dominated Goku and Vegeta together. He dominated them separately. The fight was more a triple threat at first. Once they agreed to work together they took him down in no time.

And they weren't exhausted since they transformed three times after the fight, once after being drained again.
Have you not seen movie 6? Cooler was absolutely dominating both of them. He was practically running circles around them. He came in choking the s*** out of Goku and it was only by a surprised attack that Vegeta got a hit. He then went up, started to manhandle Vegeta nearly as bad as Freeza did, smashed his guts open and then blew both him and Goku straight away. The only reason they even got any hits on him was the simple fact that Cooler basically ran into their last attack and in the end, it left them completely exhausted and barley able to move.

It's damn clear Cooler was dominating both of them. He made them look like fools and it was clear how desperate the two Saiyans were getting. So yeah, he kicked BOTH their butts.

Goku and Vegeta may not have thrown in a combined hit until then, but they were certainly attacking together and were being basically played with by Cooler.


Quote:
 
I have super gotenks at 3 if fat buu was a 2 and Goku at 4 with majin vegeta being a 2
Gotenks getts mopped


Your numbers are off. Goku should be a 3 and Gotenks the 4. Not sure how Vegeta is rivaling Fat Boo either...
Show me scans proving pre rosat gotenks was superior to full power ss3 goku. And no not goku guessing gotenks power before he even senses it cause he still needed korin to see if he was weaker than cell
Gotenks has what's called the "benefit of assumption" by default, meaning you need to find evidence against him. Goku's claim that Gotenks would be stronger than him was never once contradicted, and at least one person (Piccolo) said Gotenks' power was "indeed absolutely incredible," which would sway far more in favor of supporting evidence than any sort of contradiction to Goku's words.

So do you have any evidence to oppose Gotenks' superiority other than simply not believing an authority on the concept because...? Keep in mind that character statements form the basis of the story (and literature in general) and are what we use to quantify feats, meaning if you disregard them for the sake of it, you might as well go balls in and replace the dialogue with what you want it to say. In other words, unless contradicted, they're true.
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Timothy
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Dark Matter
Nov 24 2015, 01:00 PM
Quote:
 
Show me scans proving pre rosat gotenks was superior to full power ss3 goku. And no not goku guessing gotenks power before he even senses it cause he still needed korin to see if he was weaker than cell


Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”

Right from Goku's mouth himself. He out right states Gotenks would be stronger than him.

And to add more to that.

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”

Of course we learn later that Goku could have defeated Boo had he gone all out. Yet here, Piccolo is the clear impression that even if Goku had gone all out, Boo would've still been stronger. Therefore, he needs Gotenks to be stronger than a Fat Boo he believes to be stronger than Goku going all out. Something which he never denies, he in fact says Gotenks' power is pretty damn good and just wishes to test his speed (henceforth leading to the aspect that the gap between Goku and Gotenks may not be all that big at this point)

But the point that is is such, you literally have a statement here in which Goku outright tells Piccolo that Gotenks will be stronger than him. The only thing that was proven wrong by his statement was the fact that he couldn't defeat Majin Boo. His statement about Gotenks still remains clear. Not only does he state this, he gives the impression that Gotenks is not only going to be stronger than the power he showed against Boo (which Piccolo was under the impression Goku was holding back at the time too) he'll have to be stronger than a Boo that's stronger than this SSJ3 Goku.

So yes, Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. The fact that Goku himself states this should be pretty clear I think.
Same guy who didn't even sense who he was talking about. At that point he didn't even know how strong fp trunks and goten were. He couldn't Even tell how strong cell was in comparison to him without korin. He said that to buu so buu wouldnt kill everyone and have something to look forward too
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Timothy
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Pyrus
Nov 24 2015, 07:50 PM
Timothy
Nov 24 2015, 09:01 AM
Dark Matter
Nov 24 2015, 07:03 AM
miguelnuva
Nov 24 2015, 05:44 AM
The duo smash Gotenks. Gotenks only needs to surpass SSJ3 Goku by a little bit.

Kid Buu: 1320
SSJ3 Goku: 1450
MSSJ Gotenks: 1500

Something like that works for me.

Also Meta Cooler never dominated Goku and Vegeta together. He dominated them separately. The fight was more a triple threat at first. Once they agreed to work together they took him down in no time.

And they weren't exhausted since they transformed three times after the fight, once after being drained again.
Have you not seen movie 6? Cooler was absolutely dominating both of them. He was practically running circles around them. He came in choking the s*** out of Goku and it was only by a surprised attack that Vegeta got a hit. He then went up, started to manhandle Vegeta nearly as bad as Freeza did, smashed his guts open and then blew both him and Goku straight away. The only reason they even got any hits on him was the simple fact that Cooler basically ran into their last attack and in the end, it left them completely exhausted and barley able to move.

It's damn clear Cooler was dominating both of them. He made them look like fools and it was clear how desperate the two Saiyans were getting. So yeah, he kicked BOTH their butts.

Goku and Vegeta may not have thrown in a combined hit until then, but they were certainly attacking together and were being basically played with by Cooler.


Quote:
 
I have super gotenks at 3 if fat buu was a 2 and Goku at 4 with majin vegeta being a 2
Gotenks getts mopped


Your numbers are off. Goku should be a 3 and Gotenks the 4. Not sure how Vegeta is rivaling Fat Boo either...
Show me scans proving pre rosat gotenks was superior to full power ss3 goku. And no not goku guessing gotenks power before he even senses it cause he still needed korin to see if he was weaker than cell
Gotenks has what's called the "benefit of assumption" by default, meaning you need to find evidence against him. Goku's claim that Gotenks would be stronger than him was never once contradicted, and at least one person (Piccolo) said Gotenks' power was "indeed absolutely incredible," which would sway far more in favor of supporting evidence than any sort of contradiction to Goku's words.

So do you have any evidence to oppose Gotenks' superiority other than simply not believing an authority on the concept because...? Keep in mind that character statements form the basis of the story (and literature in general) and are what we use to quantify feats, meaning if you disregard them for the sake of it, you might as well go balls in and replace the dialogue with what you want it to say. In other words, unless contradicted, they're true.
But his claim was unsubstantiated and was made to convince buu to not kill everybody. He hadnt even sensed fp goten and trunks at that point and buu wasnt gonna wait for anybody else. Now this same goku said hed lose to buu. And at the end of the buu saga ss3 goku reveals his superiority to fat buu and kid buu(with him needing full power)
I put Ss Gotenks prerosat >Ss3 fp goku in the same boat as
Fat buu>ss3 Goku
Self downplay so Goku could leave everybody alone
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Timothy
Nov 26 2015, 12:29 AM
Pyrus
Nov 24 2015, 07:50 PM
Timothy
Nov 24 2015, 09:01 AM
Dark Matter
Nov 24 2015, 07:03 AM
miguelnuva
Nov 24 2015, 05:44 AM
The duo smash Gotenks. Gotenks only needs to surpass SSJ3 Goku by a little bit.

Kid Buu: 1320
SSJ3 Goku: 1450
MSSJ Gotenks: 1500

Something like that works for me.

Also Meta Cooler never dominated Goku and Vegeta together. He dominated them separately. The fight was more a triple threat at first. Once they agreed to work together they took him down in no time.

And they weren't exhausted since they transformed three times after the fight, once after being drained again.
Have you not seen movie 6? Cooler was absolutely dominating both of them. He was practically running circles around them. He came in choking the s*** out of Goku and it was only by a surprised attack that Vegeta got a hit. He then went up, started to manhandle Vegeta nearly as bad as Freeza did, smashed his guts open and then blew both him and Goku straight away. The only reason they even got any hits on him was the simple fact that Cooler basically ran into their last attack and in the end, it left them completely exhausted and barley able to move.

It's damn clear Cooler was dominating both of them. He made them look like fools and it was clear how desperate the two Saiyans were getting. So yeah, he kicked BOTH their butts.

Goku and Vegeta may not have thrown in a combined hit until then, but they were certainly attacking together and were being basically played with by Cooler.


Quote:
 
I have super gotenks at 3 if fat buu was a 2 and Goku at 4 with majin vegeta being a 2
Gotenks getts mopped


Your numbers are off. Goku should be a 3 and Gotenks the 4. Not sure how Vegeta is rivaling Fat Boo either...
Show me scans proving pre rosat gotenks was superior to full power ss3 goku. And no not goku guessing gotenks power before he even senses it cause he still needed korin to see if he was weaker than cell
Gotenks has what's called the "benefit of assumption" by default, meaning you need to find evidence against him. Goku's claim that Gotenks would be stronger than him was never once contradicted, and at least one person (Piccolo) said Gotenks' power was "indeed absolutely incredible," which would sway far more in favor of supporting evidence than any sort of contradiction to Goku's words.

So do you have any evidence to oppose Gotenks' superiority other than simply not believing an authority on the concept because...? Keep in mind that character statements form the basis of the story (and literature in general) and are what we use to quantify feats, meaning if you disregard them for the sake of it, you might as well go balls in and replace the dialogue with what you want it to say. In other words, unless contradicted, they're true.
But his claim was unsubstantiated and was made to convince buu to not kill everybody. He hadnt even sensed fp goten and trunks at that point and buu wasnt gonna wait for anybody else. Now this same goku said hed lose to buu. And at the end of the buu saga ss3 goku reveals his superiority to fat buu and kid buu(with him needing full power)
I put Ss Gotenks prerosat >Ss3 fp goku in the same boat as
Fat buu>ss3 Goku
Self downplay so Goku could leave everybody alone
Let's say Goku's claim was unsubstantiated (not agreeing, just going with it here). Why then, when Gotenks did form, did nobody question his strength? Why did nobody, specifically Piccolo, contradict Goku's claim? He certainly had the opportunities to do so. So my point is, even if what Goku said was just to get the hell off the planet, it ended up ringing true anyway if we're to believe the absence of contradictions.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Good sir, that's not how it works around here. Goku has felt Goten and Trunks' full power, he specifically wanted to see their full power. Not to mention he saw them fighting at the tournament as well. it doesn't really take a genius to see two people and put 1+1 together to get massive a*** fusion boost. Goku was pretty confident on that point.

In fact this actually helps out Goku's case more because if goku's confident enough in the kids if he hadn't felt their true power, then one could only imagine the confidence if their true power had been shown...which it has by the way. You don't just pick an choose what statements you like as if its a food buffet. Well I like line where Freeza is losing stamina but the line about vegeta have a PL of 24,000 again Cui? Well that's just load of BS right?

Even Toriyama outright states that the one thing he tries to pay attention to is the dialogue. So when Goku says something, non-contradicted, one does not question it.

Otherwise, I guess you're going to tell me a fusion of Gohkan or Gogeta would get the crap kicked out of him by Super Boo cause Goku was kind of confident on that matter too but...obviously his word is not enough.
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Dark Matter
Nov 24 2015, 01:36 PM
miguelnuva
Nov 24 2015, 01:14 PM
Dark Matter
Nov 24 2015, 07:03 AM
miguelnuva
Nov 24 2015, 05:44 AM
The duo smash Gotenks. Gotenks only needs to surpass SSJ3 Goku by a little bit.

Kid Buu: 1320
SSJ3 Goku: 1450
MSSJ Gotenks: 1500

Something like that works for me.

Also Meta Cooler never dominated Goku and Vegeta together. He dominated them separately. The fight was more a triple threat at first. Once they agreed to work together they took him down in no time.

And they weren't exhausted since they transformed three times after the fight, once after being drained again.
Have you not seen movie 6? Cooler was absolutely dominating both of them. He was practically running circles around them. He came in choking the s*** out of Goku and it was only by a surprised attack that Vegeta got a hit. He then went up, started to manhandle Vegeta nearly as bad as Freeza did, smashed his guts open and then blew both him and Goku straight away. The only reason they even got any hits on him was the simple fact that Cooler basically ran into their last attack and in the end, it left them completely exhausted and barley able to move.

It's damn clear Cooler was dominating both of them. He made them look like fools and it was clear how desperate the two Saiyans were getting. So yeah, he kicked BOTH their butts.

Goku and Vegeta may not have thrown in a combined hit until then, but they were certainly attacking together and were being basically played with by Cooler.



Yes I saw movie 6 and Cooler was dominating them both donto the fact they weren't fighting together. Goku and Vegeta were attacking the same opponet but they weren't figh5ing together till the end of thw fight and when they did they toasted Meta Cooler.

Maybe you need to watch the fight again.
So two opponents attacking the same character basically at the same time (it's not like Goku tagged out and waited before tagging back in) is not considering attacking the same time? You do realize there's a difference between attacking together and combining your attacks into one. Goku and Vegeta were attacking together, both of them went at Cooler, perhaps with their own mindsets but they were certainly attacking together.

It's just like with Super 13. Nobody was combining attacks to defeat him but they were all certainly going at him together and getting their respective faces stomped too.

EDIT: I think its pretty clear really. Goku and Vegeta as individuals can't defeat Cooler despite both of them attacking together, same way that those in Movie 7 can't defeat Super 13 or those in Movie 8 can't defeat Broly. Once people start building up or combinging their power or attacks together in some way (same way with Movie 10 I suppose) that's when they can overpower their opponent but its made obvious just how little Goku and Vegeta were doing simply trying to attack individually together than instead of trying to combine their attack in one go.

Their's a major difference between how Goku and Vegeta fought Meta Cooler and how the other group fights went down in the rest of the series.

The SSJs were actually harping each other and weren't coordinated, Vegeta at one point even tired to kill Goku and Cooler.

The fight was the same as Godzilla and Moguera fighting SpaceGodzilla, same opponent but they weren't fighting together till the Moguera crew actually say let's help Godzilla.
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Gogeta power placement
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Gotenks is stronger than both of them individually, but he can't beat both Goku and Buu. He has to deal with Goku's skillet, techniques and experience as well as Buu's haxed abilities. Not to mention Gotenks is just dumb and would certainly lose because of that.
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