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Super Saiyan Gotenks ( Pre ) vs Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Topic Started: Nov 23 2015, 12:08 AM (1,407 Views)
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As of now, it's 7-1 in Gotenks favor. I think that's a good sign don't you?
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FutureProtagonist
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Nov 23 2015, 03:02 AM
FP, if Gotenks is 100, what is Goku?
Eh, maybe 115+, he is expected to beat a Fat Boo who's even stronger than the one Goku fought.
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SSj Gotenks (Goku's prediction) > Boo (Goku's expectation) >~ SSj3 Goku

I have around a 20-35% gap between Gotenks and Goku, with Gotenks obviously the superior being. It's firmly foretold by Goku that Gotenks would exceed his power, and nobody made any sort of contradiction (not a single hint of doubt in Gotenks' power, that is) to this claim even after Gotenks was before their very eyes. I have absolutely no reason to call Goku a liar when it comes to his words on Gotenks, not even if it "makes my numbers bloated." The story says what the story says.

Now, post-2008 material and Toei's movies are a different beast. The movies have never been hand-in-hand with coherency or logic, and as for the new material like Battle of Gods and Dragon Ball Super, Toriyama has said in recent times that he doesn't have to be consistent with his previous work, meaning he can say "Gotenks was s'posed to be strong? Nah, Goku's stronger now!" and that's that—but it doesn't affect the manga one bit, so I never pay any mind to that stuff when it's not the focus.

Anyway:

Gotenks (expectation/reality) - ~135
Boo (expectation) - 100-110
Goku - 100
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Super Saiyan God
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In Piccolo's mind, I think it appears to be this...


Super Saiyan 3 Goku ( All Out ) > Super Saiyan 3 Goku / Fat Buu

I think it's pretty clear that Goku is most likely superior, the reason he doesn't try is because he wants to leave it up to the kids.
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Super Saiyan God
Nov 24 2015, 05:34 AM
In Piccolo's mind, I think it appears to be this...


Super Saiyan 3 Goku ( All Out ) > Super Saiyan 3 Goku / Fat Buu

I think it's pretty clear that Goku is most likely superior, the reason he doesn't try is because he wants to leave it up to the kids.
In Piccolo's mind, Goku going all-out isn't any stronger chi-wise than Goku against Fat Boo. He's just more likely to actually finish the fight.
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I think he senses his ki level and is able to sense their is an advantage on Goku's part. Which is why he thinks the drain from Super Saiyan 3 being the reason Goku didn't go all out.

The reason Goku didn't go all out and win in Piccolo's mind, is that he wanted to let the boys save the world.

Nowhere in their conversation is Piccolo buying this load of crap. There's a reason he pulls Goku off to the side to have this conversation.

Do you know how badly everyone would flip out if they knew Goku could win and didn't do it because he wanted some kids to do it? That's crazy talk. Which is why Piccolo gets a laugh out of it and calls Goku incredible.
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Super Saiyan God
Nov 24 2015, 06:37 AM
I think he senses his ki level and is able to sense their is an advantage on Goku's part. Which is why he thinks the drain from Super Saiyan 3 being the reason Goku didn't go all out.

The reason Goku didn't go all out and win in Piccolo's mind, is that he wanted to let the boys save the world.

Nowhere in their conversation is Piccolo buying this load of crap. There's a reason he pulls Goku off to the side to have this conversation.

Do you know how badly everyone would flip out if they knew Goku could win and didn't do it because he wanted some kids to do it? That's crazy talk. Which is why Piccolo gets a laugh out of it and calls Goku incredible.
I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying Goku (against Fat Boo) = Goku ("all-out") chi-wise; his power is no different in either case. It's his effort level that changes. Goku was always stronger than Fat Boo, hence Piccolo's conversation, but at the time of his statement of inferiority, he didn't know Boo wasn't going to skyrocket in power (which he didn't find out until later in the story). At the time, he was under the assumption that Boo's power could go up at any time and could indeed surpass his own. Goku's words can work for each direction.
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Goku thought Buu's power could still get stronger? Didn't know that.
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Super Saiyan God
Nov 25 2015, 10:03 PM
Goku thought Buu's power could still get stronger? Didn't know that.
He claimed Boo's chi was like a lie. There was no telling how strong he'd get if someone made him mad again.
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Timothy
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I don't get how gotenks needed to be stronger than goku to beat buu. The gap between Goku and Buu was fairly large. Plus Goku and majin vegeta could take fat buu so i dont see fat buu being more than 1.5x majin vegeta. Ss3 Goku is 4x majin vegeta. Where in the manga does it state pre rosat gotenks outclassed goku
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Timothy
Nov 26 2015, 12:21 AM
I don't get how gotenks needed to be stronger than goku to beat buu. The gap between Goku and Buu was fairly large. Plus Goku and majin vegeta could take fat buu so i dont see fat buu being more than 1.5x majin vegeta. Ss3 Goku is 4x majin vegeta. Where in the manga does it state pre rosat gotenks outclassed goku
Goku and Fat Boo weren't as far apart as you may have it in your head. The manga fight was short, yet painted a clear picture that the gap in power was nothing amazing. Neither competitor showed an impressive lead over the other. Goku and Majin Vegeta in no way could beat Boo, as supported by the fact that Boo powered up at least once more during the fight with Vegeta, and Piccolo's statement that no amount of fighters could beat Boo after witnessing Vegeta's self-destruction fail.
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Timothy
Nov 26 2015, 12:21 AM
I don't get how gotenks needed to be stronger than goku to beat buu. The gap between Goku and Buu was fairly large. Plus Goku and majin vegeta could take fat buu so i dont see fat buu being more than 1.5x majin vegeta. Ss3 Goku is 4x majin vegeta. Where in the manga does it state pre rosat gotenks outclassed goku
Cause Goku states Gotenks will be stronger.

Goku and Majin Vegeta couldn't do jack to Majin Boo. Vegeta called him an immortal monster and once Boo got even a remote bit serious, battered Vegeta into the floor.

It's literally stated that Goku, Vegeta, Gohan+ others wouldn't have been able to defeat Fat boo. And where is this stated?

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.6-7
Goku: “Damn it! If either Vegeta or Gohan were alive, maybe we could have managed something…”
Piccolo: “…No, it probably wouldn’t matter how many people went at him…He wasn’t at that level…”

Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P8.3
Context: Goku confronts Babidi
Goku: “…Me and Vegeta both underestimated you too much…We never thought that Majin Boo would be so incredible.”

Chapter: 467 (DBZ 273), P1.2-3
Trunks: “N-no! We’ll fight too! You’ll be killed on your own, papa! We’ll definitely be able to defeat him if we 3 do it together!”
Vegeta: “It’s no use…No matter how many of us go at him…Not if we fight in the ordinary way…”

In short, Majin Boo too stronk!
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FutureProtagonist
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Timothy
Nov 26 2015, 12:21 AM
I don't get how gotenks needed to be stronger than goku to beat buu. The gap between Goku and Buu was fairly large. Plus Goku and majin vegeta could take fat buu so i dont see fat buu being more than 1.5x majin vegeta. Ss3 Goku is 4x majin vegeta. Where in the manga does it state pre rosat gotenks outclassed goku
The only argument I see here is either "Goku can't be that weak" and/or "Gotenks can't be that strong". No, it's not stated clearly anywhere that Gotenks is stronger than Goku, but Goku believes that he will be (he outright says so once, and implies many times), and Piccolo never gives any indication that Gotenks failed to live up to what Goku said. Therefore we assume that Goku was correct. Why would we assume otherwise? What leads you to believe that Gotenks is not stronger than Goku?
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Super Saiyan God
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It is poorly written. When Goku senses Super Buu, he should make some sort of comment about how stupidly powerful he is and how Goku and not even Gotenks can handle him. He kind of brushes over all of these dramatic superiority claims over Goku in a convenient matter. The author certainly could have made it more clear.

Also, the backlash on the logic really shows you why DBS went so hard against it. The fans don't want Goku being an ant. They will do damn near anything to keep him relevant.

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Timothy
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Toryama had to be smoking something amazing during the buu saga
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