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| Moon buster | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 8 2015, 05:31 PM (812 Views) | |
| + Ssj3vegito96 | Nov 8 2015, 05:31 PM Post #1 |
 
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Usually I don't believe the blast made saiyan saga characters anywhere near light speed but it's still always in the back of my head and every now and then I wonder about it. Why isn't piccolos blast around light speed? The moon being close to the planet has been retconned. I thought it was a deus ex machinima not a feat and that nothing other than itself supports them being that fast. But I came across this:
These are the three things that make something a deus ex machinima. Does this scene match them? What do you think? If not, what is the problem with accepting them as this speed? I can't see how this can be compared to say, spongebob lifting up a car. Obviously he can't because we've seen that he's in fact not that strong and that it's purely for comedy. Nothing that I know of contradicts piccolos blast being that fast. So what do we make of it? Then there is the time frame "issue". Is this really an issue? Piccolo didn't float there with his thumb up his a*** for half an hour waiting for the blast to reach the moon. I know calcs will be involved but it doesn't take anything more than common sense to know that this blast at the least is a good portion of the speed of light Authors intentions are important I guess but in the happened. How do you get around that? According tv tropes(idk how good of a source this place is but I see people use it a lot), "Intentions are one thing. What was actually accomplished might be something very different". Read more: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathOfTheAuthor#ixzz3qvEoolp5 So what do you think? Does it qualify as deus ex machinima? If not, what's keeping us from using this scene? |
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| * Ketchup Revenge | Nov 8 2015, 05:47 PM Post #2 |
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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A simple point about "light speed" that could be made is that light travels slower through the atmosphere than it does through space; as do all forms of matter because there's atmospheric resistence. I assume the same rule can be applied to ki blasts. The majority of the distance between the earth's crust and the moon is through space. |
 The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him. | |
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| * Yu Narukami | Nov 8 2015, 05:51 PM Post #3 |
Izanagi!
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Unless you think travel speed is ridiculously far-removed from 'combat speed', you'll be faced with problems when you get to Snake Way. It took Goku, possibly using Kaioken, 28 hours to travel down Snake Way, which is about 620,000 miles. Light travels at 186,000 miles per second, so it'd take him just a few seconds to get back. |
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| Mihawk | Nov 8 2015, 05:59 PM Post #4 |
 
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It seems to fall under all the qualifications of a dues ex apart from "the problem could be solved with a bit of common sense or other type of simple intervention". Can't say I agree with that definition. In Mirai Nikki, the god of time and space is called Dues ex machina. He's supposedly omnipotent but for the sake of plot he's apparently running out of time. In Bleach Aizen can easily beat everyone with his Shikai. Instead he has everyone fighting the Espada and nearly dies to Yamamato's flame. It's not that his Shikai isn't OP, it's just plot convenience. There is something known as author's Dues Ex Machina too. Where the plot doesn't necessitate it but for the sake of keeping the story telling smooth it will contradict past and forward facts. In Spongebob for example, Spongebob can reach the KK extremely fast even outside of a "gag scene". The plot probably didn't require it as I imagine some common sense solution was out there, but the writers of the story preferred keeping the story flowing normally rather than crunching numbers and keeping SB unto his known racing abilities. Piccolo's blast is essentially the same. AT, rather than having some contrived alternative solution, made the most logical choice in the story. The speed of the blast was completely irrelevant and most likely wasn't considered in calculation. It made more sense to write the story rather than write numbers. We know Nappa's factually faster blast was way slower than Piccolo's blast. Hell, if you're making Super and RoF canon, then there's all sorts of blasts which are known to be faster than his blast but can be calculated to much, much slower. Piccolo's blast is more or less the random Spongebob instant sprint to the KK. We know the blasts around it are way slower, but it was just thrown in to keep the story flowing smoothly without any regard for the poor old other versus debaters. Also if you're bringing death of the author into this then you also raise a few other questions: if the author isn't important, then why should we even look at Super which "retconned" the distance of the moon? It's glorified fan fiction without the author. Death of the author is a way to maximize the enjoyment of the literature. I'm not saying it's not useful but it'll hurt more than it'll help. Since now that we have no author, it's back to a gag moon very close to the Earth that Piccolo, and Kirllin and Yamacha earlier have to shield themselves form the particles that come off immediately after it's destroyed. Edited by Mihawk, Nov 8 2015, 06:00 PM.
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| Timothy | Nov 8 2015, 06:24 PM Post #5 |
 
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It is Roshi ran 40mph but could react to bullets Db characters are like wonder woman in combat speed compared to travel |
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| * Yu Narukami | Nov 8 2015, 06:27 PM Post #6 |
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Izanagi!
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Also, with 'combat speed', Kinto'un > Nappa |
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| Timothy | Nov 8 2015, 06:28 PM Post #7 |
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And using physics to debunk shonen light speed come on now Toryama made gokus aura visible light years away so yea. Either they were reacting at light speed early on or Toryama is king of power creep and speed creep. Also against tien goku noted the difference between his combat speed and bukujutsu speed. Also light beams travel at light speed and I'm pretty sure special beam cannon is light speed Eveb if we downplay to the maximum and say it was lightning speed. By the time Goku reaches 3 million hea reacting lightspeed Anime feats show it And manga feats and scaling point towards it being true. I mean roshi and krillin were fighting in milliseconds and Roshi has travel speed that is barely something special. |
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| Timothy | Nov 8 2015, 06:43 PM Post #8 |
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Now of all things that could be blamed on plot or deus ex machina wouldn't it make sense to have this instance be labeled that? Nimbus is barely faster than a bullet. Also we know nappa wasnt in his right mind battle wise until vegeta coached him into fighting better. Combat speed and speed in short burstst>>>>>>>>>>travel speed since krillin and goku trained with roshi. We get goku escaping nuke size explosion point blank range and reacting to solar flare against tien,raditz dodging special beam cannon,piccolo instantly taking out the moon,Goku reacting to cells kamehameha,cell reacting last second to final flash,goku reacting to freezas death beams ,dodging piccolos eye beams at point blank range,buuhan deflecting a blast through the earth etc In movies we get broly destroying a neighboring planet,gokus kamehameha reaching the sun in seconds Too many feats for them to not be light speed Its been obvious that travel speed or bukujutsu speed is not a good measurement of combat capabilities. After seeing roshi run 40mph who would've guessed that he could catch machine gun bullets. We can't deny these feats cause there are too many. Combat speed was always ridiculously absurd compared to travel. Why. Cause plot is always influenced by the hero arriving at a certain time and travel time will always be inconsistent but combat speed remains exponential and the same. For example didn't toryama say gohan travelled at a certain speed which is slower than gokus mach28 in the saiyan saga. But we all know goku wouldn't keep up in combat. We even have nappas and piccolos blasts being reffered to as light beams. Since there greatest speed is in short burts and in combat instead of thinking they can't be light speed cause light travels 7.5 times around earty in s second think about hoe light goes one foot per nanosecond and how the time frame for combat has been steadily decreasing due to increasing speed an the fact that we have goku dodging beams leaving large explosions in an instant etc. By the time Goku is at 3m he's basically a Raditz with a kaoiken times3000x Which increases speed as well If Raditz reacted at lightning speed( which is stupid downplay) than goku at this level is light speed in combat no doubt. But even Raditz most likely was look at the speed feats of piccolos blasts boz . they were made to be s big deal otherwise he probably wouldn't have said "how can anyone be this fast" at that moment. It was a remark on combat speed cause by the time one fights a villian they probably already felt them travelling but the hype never comes until we see how fast they move in combat. And we know plot saved gohan |
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| * Yu Narukami | Nov 8 2015, 06:49 PM Post #9 |
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Izanagi!
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Right, so if Nappa's beam is a light beam and travels at light speed, shouldn't Goku's first Kamehameha from DB? It's just as much a light beam as Nappa's attack, so unless you think they're the same speed, would you agree that a beam being 'light' doesn't mean that it's light speed? In regards to the Solar Flare, Goku knew what Tenshinhan was doing. We see him get clued in before Tenshinhan actually launched the attack, so all it tells us is that Goku rushed to Roshi, grabbed his sunglasses and rushed back before and during the attack. Could you provide proof that the Makankosappo is lightspeed? Seems to me like you're just saying that it is because somebody called it a 'light beam', a description that could be attached to literally any ki attack in the series. On Roshi's 'battle' with Krillin, that was a gag. Next you'll be telling me that Hercule is incredibly durable because he survived hits from Cell and Pure Boo. |
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| Timothy | Nov 8 2015, 07:01 PM Post #10 |
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Hercule is not a real fighter compared to them your example is bad And spc is light speed cause its at least as fast as his moon buster Roshi and krillin was a feat it just had comedy as well. You're really tryna argue that they arent capable of doing things they've been shown to do Either way currently they're mfl in combat so either toryama is on crack or they've been approaching this. Plus we got vegeta dodging beams in bog. Light speed on here is so overrated Its only3000x lightning Edited by Timothy, Nov 8 2015, 07:03 PM.
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| * Yu Narukami | Nov 8 2015, 07:05 PM Post #11 |
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Izanagi!
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It was still a gag. You seriously think they had a game of rock-paper-scissors and did a bunch of other stuff in that one second? Oh, y'mean that Moon Buster that we didn't get a time-scale for? Why stop at lightspeed? I could argue that the blast was MFTL and say that you're downplaying how fast it was. As we saw the 21st Budokai, the Moon is quite close to Earth; much closer than the real-life counterpart. If new material contradicts this, which one are you going to believe; the original material or the new material? |
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| Timothy | Nov 8 2015, 07:15 PM Post #12 |
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Yes i do cause that's what thr manga showed. Its fact Toryama>>>>>>>>>>some mod in disbelief on a random forum. Didn't toryama say that the moon isb regular distance from earth? Nothing says the moon is closer than our life so you can throe that in the four galaxies bin |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Nov 8 2015, 07:27 PM Post #13 |
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Well it was pretty close until new material and toriyama's interview retconned that @itachi well said. Thanks Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Nov 8 2015, 07:28 PM.
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| Timothy | Nov 8 2015, 07:34 PM Post #14 |
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Gohan couldve had his tail removed it wasnt a deux es machina cause there were alternatives. Seemed more like feat confirmation since ppl would think he shouldn't bust a moon But o well i see how it is now Every good feat is either gag or plot or an outlier And sorbet>ssb goku Sigh... this fandom |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Nov 8 2015, 07:50 PM Post #15 |
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Like itachi pointed out though. Toriyama as far as we know didn't intend for the blast to be that fast. He only needed it for the plot. If we're going to ignore the author here, why should we consider the retcon that made the moon the same distance it is from the earth in real life? |
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