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Gotenks and goku
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Topic Started: Nov 3 2015, 12:57 AM (2,089 Views)
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Delicieuxz
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Nov 5 2015, 10:04 PM
Post #31
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- Dark Matter
- Nov 5 2015, 07:47 PM
- Delicieuxz
- Nov 5 2015, 07:41 PM
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- Nov 3 2015, 01:10 AM
Considering Toriyama originally thought the SSJ amp should be 10x against Freeza (we know why that's foolish) I doubt anywhere in Toriyama's mind he was thinking of numbers or the specific gap between Gotenks and Goku.
What are you thinking makes it foolish? I know the numbers wouldn't add up (after recovering from fighting Cptn Ginyu, Goku might be above a power level 300,000, so x10 would make him more than 2x as strong as Frieza), but is there another reason you're thinking of?
No, its the whole Goku vs Freeza part. Goku's Kaioken X20 KHH didn't do jack nothing beyond some superficial damage to 50% Freeza but was under some impression that the increase for SSJ would be 10x until his editor told him that this was kind of a problem to have Goku be weaker than a form that was already vastly inferior to Freeza. - Quote:
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...Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/seg-story-volume-truth-about-dragon-ball/It basically showed that, Toriyama never intended the SSJ amp to be as big as it got during the Freeza Arc.
Hmm, well then there are multiple ways this isn't adding up. Ginyu read Goku's power as 180,000 before taking his body (that's in the show, dunno if it's different in the manga), and then Goku's body got beat to a pulp and he fully recovered again before fighting Frieza. That means 10x Kaioken in normal form should have outclassed Frieza majorly - even already before the power boost Goku got from his body being thrashed while Ginyu had it.
Though the way to get around this inconsistency is to presume that the Kaioken isn't a direct multiplier of the person's power, and that x3, x4, x5 etc actually described the multiplication the Kaioken's effect, and not the individual's base strength.
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Nov 5 2015, 10:57 PM
Post #32
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滅Are you frightened?
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- Ssj3vegito96
- Nov 5 2015, 04:29 AM
I'm not questioning goku saying gotenks will be stronger than him. I'm saying because piccolo questioned gotenks's speed, he can't be that much stronger than goku can he? And because pre rosat gotenks is ssj2 l
I don't have Gotenks that much stronger tbh. And I never understood him wanting to test his speed. If his power is anything to go off of, he should've had no need to check his speed. The Super Saiyan transformation is pretty much straightforward; increases all physical attributes and grants a large pool of (somewhat different) ki. *referring to when Gohan felt Future Trunks' ki during his brief battle with Mexh Frieza.
You'd question a new concept as well.
And that would be?
"Even though it looks like they've done this correctly, I've already seen two failed versions of this, so I better check things out just to be sure..."
He's seen two failed versions sure, he also know they did it correctly if he senses a new and higher level of ki. As Super Saiyans, Gotenks had even more so. Going back to the post I did two posts ago, why test it if he knows their power should also give them a big boost in speed?
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Nov 5 2015, 11:49 PM
Post #33
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- Nov 5 2015, 04:29 AM
I'm not questioning goku saying gotenks will be stronger than him. I'm saying because piccolo questioned gotenks's speed, he can't be that much stronger than goku can he? And because pre rosat gotenks is ssj2 l
I don't have Gotenks that much stronger tbh. And I never understood him wanting to test his speed. If his power is anything to go off of, he should've had no need to check his speed. The Super Saiyan transformation is pretty much straightforward; increases all physical attributes and grants a large pool of (somewhat different) ki. *referring to when Gohan felt Future Trunks' ki during his brief battle with Mexh Frieza.
You'd question a new concept as well.
And that would be?
"Even though it looks like they've done this correctly, I've already seen two failed versions of this, so I better check things out just to be sure..."
He's seen two failed versions sure, he also know they did it correctly if he senses a new and higher level of ki. As Super Saiyans, Gotenks had even more so. Going back to the post I did two posts ago, why test it if he knows their power should also give them a big boost in speed?
>seen two failed fusions
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DEY DID DIS 2 ME
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Nov 6 2015, 12:28 AM
Post #34
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MY FACE!
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Base Gotenks does not have to be stronger than Son Goku (SSJ 2) to be considered incredibly powerful, even by SEG; if Gotenks (SSJ, Lookout) equals Son Goku (SSJ 3), and if multipliers work the same way for fusion, then Gotenks would be 8 times stronger than Son Goku!
That's powerful, especially compared to the humans.
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Nov 6 2015, 12:38 AM
Post #35
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- Dark Matter
- Nov 5 2015, 07:47 PM
- Delicieuxz
- Nov 5 2015, 07:41 PM
- Dark Matter
- Nov 3 2015, 01:10 AM
Considering Toriyama originally thought the SSJ amp should be 10x against Freeza (we know why that's foolish) I doubt anywhere in Toriyama's mind he was thinking of numbers or the specific gap between Gotenks and Goku.
What are you thinking makes it foolish? I know the numbers wouldn't add up (after recovering from fighting Cptn Ginyu, Goku might be above a power level 300,000, so x10 would make him more than 2x as strong as Frieza), but is there another reason you're thinking of?
No, its the whole Goku vs Freeza part. Goku's Kaioken X20 KHH didn't do jack nothing beyond some superficial damage to 50% Freeza but was under some impression that the increase for SSJ would be 10x until his editor told him that this was kind of a problem to have Goku be weaker than a form that was already vastly inferior to Freeza. - Quote:
-
...Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/seg-story-volume-truth-about-dragon-ball/It basically showed that, Toriyama never intended the SSJ amp to be as big as it got during the Freeza Arc.
Does that for sure mean ssj is a 10x increase after Frieza saga?
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EMIYA
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Nov 6 2015, 12:48 AM
Post #36
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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- Ssj3vegito96
- Nov 6 2015, 12:38 AM
- Dark Matter
- Nov 5 2015, 07:47 PM
- Delicieuxz
- Nov 5 2015, 07:41 PM
- Dark Matter
- Nov 3 2015, 01:10 AM
Considering Toriyama originally thought the SSJ amp should be 10x against Freeza (we know why that's foolish) I doubt anywhere in Toriyama's mind he was thinking of numbers or the specific gap between Gotenks and Goku.
What are you thinking makes it foolish? I know the numbers wouldn't add up (after recovering from fighting Cptn Ginyu, Goku might be above a power level 300,000, so x10 would make him more than 2x as strong as Frieza), but is there another reason you're thinking of?
No, its the whole Goku vs Freeza part. Goku's Kaioken X20 KHH didn't do jack nothing beyond some superficial damage to 50% Freeza but was under some impression that the increase for SSJ would be 10x until his editor told him that this was kind of a problem to have Goku be weaker than a form that was already vastly inferior to Freeza. - Quote:
-
...Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/seg-story-volume-truth-about-dragon-ball/It basically showed that, Toriyama never intended the SSJ amp to be as big as it got during the Freeza Arc.
Does that for sure mean ssj is a 10x increase after Frieza saga?
Not really, but it is an indication that there's no reason to use a really high SSJ amp after the Freeza Arc if you can help it considering Toriyama never intended it to be so high anyways. If you can get away with a 5x, 10x or whatever amp, feel free to do so. It's main the consistency that matters. Goku for whatever reason shouldn't be getting say a 10x boost while Gotenks only gets a 2x boost or something.
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Nov 6 2015, 03:47 PM
Post #37
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But gotenks is the only time I see a good reason to lower the multiplier. Why shouldn't we keep gokus 50x multiplier because there hasn't been anything to suggest it went and say fusion dance for whatever reason lowers the multiplier?
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Nov 6 2015, 04:21 PM
Post #38
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滅Are you frightened?
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- Ssj3vegito96
- Nov 5 2015, 04:29 AM
I'm not questioning goku saying gotenks will be stronger than him. I'm saying because piccolo questioned gotenks's speed, he can't be that much stronger than goku can he? And because pre rosat gotenks is ssj2 l
I don't have Gotenks that much stronger tbh. And I never understood him wanting to test his speed. If his power is anything to go off of, he should've had no need to check his speed. The Super Saiyan transformation is pretty much straightforward; increases all physical attributes and grants a large pool of (somewhat different) ki. *referring to when Gohan felt Future Trunks' ki during his brief battle with Mexh Frieza.
You'd question a new concept as well.
And that would be?
"Even though it looks like they've done this correctly, I've already seen two failed versions of this, so I better check things out just to be sure..."
He's seen two failed versions sure, he also know they did it correctly if he senses a new and higher level of ki. As Super Saiyans, Gotenks had even more so. Going back to the post I did two posts ago, why test it if he knows their power should also give them a big boost in speed?
>seen two failed fusions
So no answer?
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Nov 6 2015, 05:30 PM
Post #39
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Izanagi!
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We've seen in the series that power doesn't always equate with speed. Gotenks has more than enough power, but whether his speed is at the same level is unclear to Piccolo at that point. He was being cautious, and rightfully so. Why else would he specify speed?
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Nov 6 2015, 06:24 PM
Post #40
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- Solid Snake
- Nov 6 2015, 04:21 PM
- Pyrus
- Nov 5 2015, 11:49 PM
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- Solid Snake
- Nov 5 2015, 04:36 AM
- Ssj3vegito96
- Nov 5 2015, 04:29 AM
I'm not questioning goku saying gotenks will be stronger than him. I'm saying because piccolo questioned gotenks's speed, he can't be that much stronger than goku can he? And because pre rosat gotenks is ssj2 l
I don't have Gotenks that much stronger tbh. And I never understood him wanting to test his speed. If his power is anything to go off of, he should've had no need to check his speed. The Super Saiyan transformation is pretty much straightforward; increases all physical attributes and grants a large pool of (somewhat different) ki. *referring to when Gohan felt Future Trunks' ki during his brief battle with Mexh Frieza.
You'd question a new concept as well.
And that would be?
"Even though it looks like they've done this correctly, I've already seen two failed versions of this, so I better check things out just to be sure..."
He's seen two failed versions sure, he also know they did it correctly if he senses a new and higher level of ki. As Super Saiyans, Gotenks had even more so. Going back to the post I did two posts ago, why test it if he knows their power should also give them a big boost in speed?
>seen two failed fusions
So no answer?
You stole my line. Funny coincidences these days!
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Nov 6 2015, 08:05 PM
Post #41
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滅Are you frightened?
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We've seen in the series that power doesn't always equate with speed. Gotenks has more than enough power, but whether his speed is at the same level is unclear to Piccolo at that point. He was being cautious, and rightfully so. Why else would he specify speed?
Again, Super Saiyan at it's purist is a straightforward form. No doubt his speed would be boosted even more so then it already was at base. Sorry Nagito, but that doesn't suggest why he needs to check something in form he's familiar with after all these years.
Pyrus - It is man, I guess you rubbed off on me somewhat since 2011.
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Nov 6 2015, 08:42 PM
Post #42
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- Solid Snake
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- Nagito Komaeda
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We've seen in the series that power doesn't always equate with speed. Gotenks has more than enough power, but whether his speed is at the same level is unclear to Piccolo at that point. He was being cautious, and rightfully so. Why else would he specify speed?
Again, Super Saiyan at it's purist is a straightforward form. No doubt his speed would be boosted even more so then it already was at base. Sorry Nagito, but that doesn't suggest why he needs to check something in form he's familiar with after all these years. Pyrus - It is man, I guess you rubbed off on me somewhat since 2011.
It's still shown that you're trying to come up with a problem when it's clear that Piccolo has doubts about Fusion considering what he's seen. There's nothing else to it. It doesn't matter that Gotenks is a Super Saiyan. It's still Fusion, and any number of things can go wrong.
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Nov 6 2015, 11:57 PM
Post #43
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Izanagi!
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We've seen in the series that power doesn't always equate with speed. Gotenks has more than enough power, but whether his speed is at the same level is unclear to Piccolo at that point. He was being cautious, and rightfully so. Why else would he specify speed?
Again, Super Saiyan at it's purist is a straightforward form. No doubt his speed would be boosted even more so then it already was at base. Sorry Nagito, but that doesn't suggest why he needs to check something in form he's familiar with after all these years. Pyrus - It is man, I guess you rubbed off on me somewhat since 2011.
Are you suggesting that Piccolo can't tell how strong Gotenks is, despite saying in that same statement that Gotenks' ki is 'incredible'?
Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”
He can't afford to be careless, so he's making sure Gotenks' speed is adequate. As Pyrus said, fusion is an entirely new concept to him, and he's not the type of person to just assume Gotenks is fast enough just because he's strong enough.
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Nov 7 2015, 12:03 AM
Post #44
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滅Are you frightened?
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Fair enough, though I think his understanding should be kinda good considering that the end result was a merger (which he should be familiar with).
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4:43 PM Jul 13