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Goku coming back "alive" in Buu Arc
Topic Started: Oct 17 2015, 07:58 AM (625 Views)
Billa
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Thala na Gethu!

For me it was a great move by Toriyama

Not great. By far the best.

Buu Arc started off great, but lost every momentum post Majin Vegeta's sacrifice.

Fusion, Z-Sword Training, Old Kai power-up, Mr. SATAN's key role: everything was there, but the series felt "decayed"

Back-to-back worst fights namely Gotenks vs Buu & overall was just a mess

UNTIL, Goku's entry!

Him, along with Vegeta literally saved the Buu Arc & the series as whole imo

Their crackling chemistry & subsequent fights against Buu were top-notch

As a fan, I felt Goku's ressurection was by far the greatest fan-service Toriyama utilized for DB's final arc

Thought?
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Thiln
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It helped further the Goku/Vegeta dynamic while offering significant character development for the latter. Even though it was already done before, I also like the concept of an ultimate form where all of the person's latent potential was brought to the surface in a unique manner that helped to break the series from the constant rehashing of Super Saiyan forms. Fusion was also an interesting concept which unfortunately never went anywhere. Other than that, I don't have much good to say about the Buu arc because it tarnished what was being built up to with Gohan taking up the mantle of hero. It's had a lasting detrimental impact on his character ever since.

Another fault about the arc is that the antagonist flip-flopped constantly while pulling out new abilities and forms at the convenience of Toriyama's drawing pen until finally reaching a point where he could be taken out by Goku. Toriyama originally didn't even want to create this arc but he was compelled to by the editors and popular demand. His lack of enthusiasm shows with the declining quality of his artwork and inconsistent writing. You know there's a reason why the Buu arc is often considered to be the most divisive in the series. Take that away and how many controversial topics would there be? Some, but far less than what we have now.
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+ Pyrus
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That's rather a myth that Toriyama was set to end the series after Cell, yes?
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Billa
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Thala na Gethu!

Gohan was never meant to be the Hero of Buu Arc was the impression Toriyama gave me

Gohan fans shouldn't even be having a reason to say otherwise as the whole "succesor" aspect came outta nowhere at tail end of Cell Games Saga

Saiyan Saga emphasized on Saiyans, specifically Goku

Frieza Saga again emphasized on Goku's heritage & his ability to accept his Super Saiuan status

Android Saga had zero build-up/fore-shadowing of Gohan taking-up the mantle & in fact came as a suprise with Gohan's potential being exploited

Buu Arc was perfect the way it was.

Gohan had his moments. Became a student, developed friendship with Videl & everything else is history

I disagree on Toriyama being forced to continue part

His love for his work was evident, perhaps till Mid-Super Buu vs Ultimate Gohan.

His artstyle evolved over the time, with precise details (that'll put some current top shounen mangas to shame)

But after drawing for over 10 years, burnout is expected

Then again, he never left his work on hiatus for over 20 years or making a laughing stock of his creation by giving a "been there, done that" finish.
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Thiln
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I can't find the specific interview, but whether he intended to end it at the Cell arc or not, that doesn't justify his mediocre handling of the arc. Toriyama was never known for being an exceptional writer, but the Buu arc is commonly discredited as being the least consistent in the series. That - plus the aforementioned decline in artistic quality suggests authorial fatigue with the series.
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Thiln
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Billa
Oct 17 2015, 08:44 AM
Gohan was never meant to be the Hero of Buu Arc was the impression Toriyama gave me

Gohan fans shouldn't even be having a reason to say otherwise as the whole "succesor" aspect came outta nowhere at tail end of Cell Games Saga

Saiyan Saga emphasized on Saiyans, specifically Goku

Frieza Saga again emphasized on Goku's heritage & his ability to accept his Super Saiuan status

Android Saga had zero build-up/fore-shadowing of Gohan taking-up the mantle & in fact came as a suprise with Gohan's potential being exploited

Buu Arc was perfect the way it was.

Gohan had his moments. Became a student, developed friendship with Videl & everything else is history

I disagree on Toriyama being forced to continue part

His love for his work was evident, perhaps till Mid-Super Buu vs Ultimate Gohan.

His artstyle evolved over the time, with precise details (that'll put some current top shounen mangas to shame)

But after drawing for over 10 years, burnout is expected

Then again, he never left his work on hiatus for over 20 years or making a laughing stock of his creation by giving a "been there, done that" finish.
Gohan's actual succession of the hero role may not have unveiled until the Cell Games, but the series was definitely shifting away from Goku ever since the Saiyan arc. We first have the introduction Raditz who proves to be too much for him. Now there has been incidents in the past where Goku was overwhelmed by an opponent. However, the common responce for him was to train or seek further depths of strength in order to guarantee a fighting chance for himself that ultimately sees him coming out on top. With Raditz, this isn't the case. Piccolo appears and they form a temporary alliance in order to remove the greater threat. So right there from the beginning of Z, we have this dependency on Goku for everything being challenged when he has his rival going with him to fight; a departure from the conventional one-on-one duel that characterised his big fights in DB.

The fight with Raditz was by no means a one-man effort. Both Goku and Piccolo were totally committed with each one having an equally important role to fill. Goku stalled and subdued Raditz while Piccolo charged up the technique that would lead to his demise. It's in this fight that we're given a glimpse into the depths of Gohan's potential, who, by the way, also played an integral role.

After that, we're starting to see events really unfold through Gohan's eyes as he's kidnapped by Piccolo and the first day of his experience in being on his own is shown to the reader. Goku had probably an equal amount of exposure in seeking out King Kai for training, but it should be noted that there was a much greater focus on others besides just him during this intermission between fights.

Come the Saiyan invasion and we have the focus of the story directly shining on Gohan and the others. Hell! It was him and Piccolo that the Saiyans first sought out because they were the strongest on the planet at the time. Throughout important parts like the Saibaman fight, they appear as blurs at first from the perception of Gohan which the reader is exposed to before Piccolo advises him on how to follow the fight, that's when we can also see the fight. Many of Piccolo's team strategies depended on him and his inherent rage boosts to succeed. Goku appears to save the day, as normal, but it was ultimately he who needed saving from Vegeta when Oozaru was first used. Everyone assisted in that fight, yes, but Gohan was sort of at the forefront in stalling Vegeta, redirecting the Spirit Bomb, and using his own Oozaru form to cripple Vegeta.

Do you see a pattern beginning to form here? It's becoming somewhat less about Goku and more focused on the contributions made by other characters, more specifically Gohan.

By and large, the Namek arc was told through the perspectives of Krillin, Gohan, and Vegeta. Goku didn't even show up until the Ginyu Force arrived, which in normal fashion he easily defeated. However, in a strange twist that broke the mould once again, he's taken out of the forefront and we're once again seeing events through other people's eyes for some time. What's interesting is that Gohan was technically the only one who actually made any impact against more than just one form of Frieza. Vegeta only ever fought two of them personally (the second time he lost miserably without having done anything), Krillin mostly groveled in terror, and Piccolo was outmatched the moment 3rd form was unleashed. He was the only one still conscious and in fighting condition when Goku became a Super Saiyan - which, again, is establishing Gohan as an anomalous character who seems to possess a greater potential in terms of narrative prominence than almost anyone else, seeing as how he would be the only other person on the planet who could have felt the intense energy signatures of SSJ Goku and 100% Frieza.

The Android arc saw a massive decline in Gohan's involvement, as it did with Goku too. However, I feel like there were several implicative coincidences introduced that suggested Gohan maybe becoming lead character like his role in Trunks' timeline (the original impetus that helped jump start the arc itself). Here was this apocalyptic world where practically all of the Z-fighters were killed except for Gohan and Trunks. The latter of which was too young and weak to do much so it fell on the shoulders of Gohan to do what he can against the cyborgs. Goku's early death was one of the mainstays of that timeline and it forced Gohan to take up the fight in his place. I don't believe it was mere coincedence that Gohan in the present timeline happened to have the same arm broken which his future counterpart lost, or that Goku died again. If you ask me, the arm may have been a symbolical link or gesture to his counterpart while making amends for the shortcomings of the future. While many things did indeed change for the better, some of the core features of Trunks' timeline remained the same like Gohan spearheading the fight against the enemy and Goku's death forcing him to rise up.

My belief is that Toriyama was laying the groundwork for something different than just "Goku time". If not for Gohan becoming the hero, then at least a plot line that was less Goku-oriented. However, the Buu arc kind of ripped all of that potential and development to shreds when Toriyama deemed Gohan to not be "hero material". Instead of helping to develop Gohan's character so he could reach that preferred mark, he retreated into the old status quo of Goku once again correcting the "mistakes" of others and saving the day, except now he's got the Saiyan Prince who's well past his own original expiration date to keep things not so totally focused on Goku. Sure, the Kid Buu fight was won under a facade of everyone having a role to play, but it all ultimately leads back into Goku and his techniques. Factor in the smorgasbord of ideas that never went anywhere, plus the self-deprecating nature of the arc and you have a probable case of Toriyama being less enthused with it than previous arcs in spite of being given more creative freedom to do as he pleases with the arc. Apparently rehashing old comedic-based trappings that were largely abandoned back in the original DB was his preferred standard for whatever reason.
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+ Majin Vegeta
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The Buu Arc is my favorite arc from DBZ, and Goku been alive on it is one of the main reasons. Gohan did had a build up to be the hero in the end but he screwed up on it and bringing Goku and Vegeta to finish the fight was a great way to end the final villain. I mean really the best portion of the saga is when Goku and Vegeta are alive, or at least IMO. Gotenks was kinda lame, Mystic Gohan was cool but was outsmarted.
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"Its only when we're pushed to our limits that we can truly shine!"

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Raiken
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I completely disagree.

The whole Arc was built up around Gohan training to defeat Buu.
You'd have to be stupid not to see that.
Akira Toriyama changed his mind last moment and revived Goku and had Gohan defeated.
His original intent was for Gohan to defeat Buu.

One does not simply pass the touch (Cell Games), and then proceed to take it back (Goku's revival).

Both Goku and Vegeta should have stayed dead. Could have had a cool epilogue moment of them fighting in Otherworld.
Edited by Raiken, Oct 17 2015, 12:44 PM.
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ekrolo2
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I like Goku coming back for the sake of finishing off Vegeta's development but not much else. The arcs biggest problem is that it constantly keeps hyping up more and more sure fire ways of beating the bad guy with two fusions and the unlock potential just to keep drag it out more and more. Gotenks is gonna win! Oh wait, no Gohan is gonna win now! Oh wait, Vegetto is gonna win for sure!
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Raiken
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Goku's final role in the story was to finish off Vegeta's unfinished character development.
He was unnecessarily brought back to life, Gohan should have defeated Majin Buu.
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Timothy
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Billa
Oct 17 2015, 08:44 AM
Gohan was never meant to be the Hero of Buu Arc was the impression Toriyama gave me

Gohan fans shouldn't even be having a reason to say otherwise as the whole "succesor" aspect came outta nowhere at tail end of Cell Games Saga

Saiyan Saga emphasized on Saiyans, specifically Goku

Frieza Saga again emphasized on Goku's heritage & his ability to accept his Super Saiuan status

Android Saga had zero build-up/fore-shadowing of Gohan taking-up the mantle & in fact came as a suprise with Gohan's potential being exploited

Buu Arc was perfect the way it was.

Gohan had his moments. Became a student, developed friendship with Videl & everything else is history

I disagree on Toriyama being forced to continue part

His love for his work was evident, perhaps till Mid-Super Buu vs Ultimate Gohan.

His artstyle evolved over the time, with precise details (that'll put some current top shounen mangas to shame)

But after drawing for over 10 years, burnout is expected

Then again, he never left his work on hiatus for over 20 years or making a laughing stock of his creation by giving a "been there, done that" finish.
What Gohan became perfectly fits his character
He's a pacifist who was raised to be a scholar
Now that Goku is back it makes sense for his main focus to not be training
Especially after that power boost from elder kai
Its just not everyday that you gotta worry about being fodderized by God tiers
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Thiln
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Timothy
Oct 18 2015, 10:19 PM
Billa
Oct 17 2015, 08:44 AM
Gohan was never meant to be the Hero of Buu Arc was the impression Toriyama gave me

Gohan fans shouldn't even be having a reason to say otherwise as the whole "succesor" aspect came outta nowhere at tail end of Cell Games Saga

Saiyan Saga emphasized on Saiyans, specifically Goku

Frieza Saga again emphasized on Goku's heritage & his ability to accept his Super Saiuan status

Android Saga had zero build-up/fore-shadowing of Gohan taking-up the mantle & in fact came as a suprise with Gohan's potential being exploited

Buu Arc was perfect the way it was.

Gohan had his moments. Became a student, developed friendship with Videl & everything else is history

I disagree on Toriyama being forced to continue part

His love for his work was evident, perhaps till Mid-Super Buu vs Ultimate Gohan.

His artstyle evolved over the time, with precise details (that'll put some current top shounen mangas to shame)

But after drawing for over 10 years, burnout is expected

Then again, he never left his work on hiatus for over 20 years or making a laughing stock of his creation by giving a "been there, done that" finish.
What Gohan became perfectly fits his character
He's a pacifist who was raised to be a scholar
Now that Goku is back it makes sense for his main focus to not be training
Especially after that power boost from elder kai
Its just not everyday that you gotta worry about being fodderized by God tiers
Gohan still kept some measure of enthusiasm to right the wrongs of criminals and villains even while going into the Buu arc when he decided to become a crime fighter. He may not share in his father's overzealous desire to push himself to his limits, but he's also not the sort of person to sit back and allow evil to run amok. And really, these pacifistic tendencies only really began to interfere with his ability to fight in the Cell Games. Yes, there were moments where he hesitated in the Saiyan arc, but that was quickly weaned out in the Namek arc when he became just as eager as Krillin, if not moreso, to jump into a fight (Dodoria preparing to kill Dende is a point in case). In fact, I would argue that strictly in terms of priorities, Gohan could make a better hero than Goku since he doesn't allow his inclinations for fair play or sport interfere with his desire to protect everyone. Granted, he did kind of fumble with Cell and Buu, but how was he to know that they were capable of self-destructing or absorption?

Personally, I get tired of Goku because he's an unending, ever stagnant caricature with the same one-dimensional motives for fighting. It's consistent with his character, sure, but it also makes him come across as stale and repetitive. More importantly, the fact that he's always appearing to "save the day" fosters a culture of dependency for everyone else because they don't try to come up with a way to safeguard the planet on their own.

Then there's Vegeta whom I believe has had his story and personal conflicts resolved, yet here we are still watching him play the deuteragonist because he happens to be a fan favourite. Why doesn't anyone ever complain about Vegeta overstaying his welcome or allowing his final redemption to remain unblemished by keeping him gone? It's the same kind of reasoning that's kept Castiel alive in Supernatural, who is still fumbling along with the writers not entirely set on what to do with him now when he was originally supposed to be killed off at the end of Season 4.
Edited by Thiln, Oct 18 2015, 11:05 PM.
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