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What justifies these ridiculous power losses? (mainly Gohan)
Topic Started: Oct 11 2015, 10:04 PM (1,199 Views)
+ Steve
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

I'm just now watching Resurrection of F in the English dub, this could go in movies but it applies to the main series as well I guess.

So yeah if you haven't seen the movie SPOILERS
SPOILERS AHEAD
NOT GOING IN SPOILER TAGS

YOU'VE BEEN WARNED


Anyway so Gohan is pretty f***ing pessimistic about being able to take on just Frieza's henchmen and he's not even confident he can go Super Saiyan.
What in the f***? I understand they know Frieza is pretty much unbeatable to them(but seriously they don't even consider SSj3 Gotenks?) but how in crap are they all so weak after like a couple of years?

I know it's all 'cause the plot, can't have Gohan having relevant strength after all but how the hell do they justify this stupidity?
After Cell it was fair enough Gohan got a lot weaker, he stopped training for 7 whole years and he grew up a lot physically.
But now it makes no damn sense.

Chaiotzu and Yamcha are also apparently too weak to take on the henchmen and Piccolo is fighting the good fight but clearly not a million leagues above them like he should be.


I just don't get it. How can the writers make any sense out of this?
To top that off you have Roshi in there too who's apparently as strong as the others or are they as weak as him?
Do you think anyone ever thought that "plot" perhaps wasn't a good reason behind this? This goes back to Gohan with the 7 years too, though that one was somewhat understandable and at least he wasn't so pathetic he could barely go SSj.


Honestly, not happy with the direction the series has been going for a long time it's just Goku & Vegeta with the occasional fanservice moment like Roshi having relevant strength.
Maybe I'm taking it too seriously but I don't consider myself a good writer what so ever and I could probably think up more sensible s*** in 5 minutes.
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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魔王子

Honestly, they just needed a Super Saiyan in the film, and they didn't want to use Goten and Trunks. I personally can't think of a reasonable in-universe answer. Props to someone who can, but I feel this movie wasn't trying to be consistent, what with Freeza's mention of obtaining a battle power of 1.3 million, Piccolo supposedly struggling with a Zarbon-level opponent, and Gohan using Super Saiyan instead of his ultimate state, etc. Here's to hoping they actually let Ultimate Gohan put up a fight against Freeza in Super, initially.
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+ Pyrus
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This movie was just there to be there. It wasn't supposed to be a serious go at continuing the series. It couldn't be, anyway...
Spoiler: click to toggle
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Thiln
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The internal logic of RoF is flimsy at best. There's really no justification for characters like Gohan and Piccolo to have weakened to the extent where they can't even be considered a shadow of the shadow of their former primes. This film's main conflict would have been halted right out of the starting gate since Piccolo or Gohan could annihilate the entire army, including Frieza, without needing to exert themselves if there was any semblance of logic involved. Even Krillin and Tien individually could probably give Frieza in his 1st form, maybe second form as well, trouble until he decides to transform.
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+ Steve
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

I have no problems with Frieza being powerful honestly, I mean yeah it's f***ing stupid that he becomes literal God tier in a few months but whatever, he is the villain of the movie.

But that army should have been a joke.

No, they were considering Roshi took tons of them out.


Inconsistent doesn't cover it, I can't think of a word that does.
Don't even want to talk about Goku nearly being killed let alone hurt by a ray gun. The dub says a "common ray gun" too, would be fine if it was like an enchanted one hit kill gun.

The whole movie seems like a pointless fan fiction written by a 7 year old, does Toriyama know nothing about the actual fanbase of the series?


Hopefully Gohan goes Ultimate in Super but at this point I'd be willing to bet £1000 he still won't be relevant.
Also they mentioned Buu still being around yet he doesn't at all show up..wut.
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Tinny
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To be fair the ray gun is a good idea, Goku letting his guard down and leaving himself vulnerable lets weaker fighters potentially fight against stronger ones. Maybe how it's done wasn't perfect but still.
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lazerbem
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I believe that the "common ray gun" line is even more insulting in the subs. IIRC, Freeza says "standard issue beam gun" in that.
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+ Steve
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

tin man
Oct 11 2015, 11:25 PM
To be fair the ray gun is a good idea, Goku letting his guard down and leaving himself vulnerable lets weaker fighters potentially fight against stronger ones. Maybe how it's done wasn't perfect but still.
Well, his guard was down right enough but he was still in SSGSS so...

Ray gun is God tier apparently :D


I literally just burst out laughing.
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+ Kaboom
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I've started to form a head-theory that says these "beyond your limits" power-ups, especially ones from outside forces, may tend to deteriorate quickly if you don't train to maintain them. Almost as if your body wants to reject your new power and return to "normal" unless you take action to make that new power truly yours.

Kuririn got a huge boost on Namek, but he kept training after he was revived, so he kept his power. Gohan didn't train after Namek, and so his power may have dipped somewhat (enough that he got his butt kicked by powers between 150-200k in Movie 5). Gohan again didn't train after the Cell Games, so the new amazing power he unlocked (SS2) may have degraded a bit. Gohan once again didn't train at all after the Boo arc, so after 5-ish years his ridiculously inflated "Ultimate" power-up may have quickly faded away. Vegeta always trains, so the boost he received from Bobbidi stuck around. Etc.

Just a fan-theory, but it makes sense if you ask me. It's the type of one-off explanation you'd expect from Toriyama if asked such a tricky power-related question.
Edited by Kaboom, Oct 12 2015, 12:42 AM.
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* Yu Narukami
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- Freeza's just that powerful. Even though Gohan's insanely strong, he pales in comparison to Freeza's first form.
- Freeza's '1.3 million' line was a prediction. Everything shown later on contradicts it and it was already flimsy to begin with, so it can easily be ignored.
- In regards to Shisami being Zarbon-tier, he just trained. It's either increasing his strength or decreasing literally every other fighter's strength.
- Roshi only has to be strong enough to take on some Freeza soldiers. We saw he was having trouble with them, so saying that he managed to increase his power to, say 3/4,000 over the course of Z isn't far-fetched.
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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Yeah, to be fair to Kame-sennin, he has all the time in the world, and I'm sure he doesn't spend all day looking at porn. It's completely reasonable to assume he's been training.
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I understand what you're saying Steve, but when have the movies ever been consistent with the series? It was made to entertain, generate interest and earn some coin.

But i do agree, not only is the raygun feat inconsistent with the series, as Goku(nor anyone) was never known or shown to let his "guard" down like the movie suggests(he tanked bullets as a child), but it makes no sense. Vegeta HAD to power down so Krillin could hurt. Freeza apparently knew Goku lets his guard down from their fight on Namek(even though he never did), despite the fact that Freeza cant sense chi. Its ludicrous.

Hopefully Super changes it for the better,
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Thiln
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Kaboom
Oct 12 2015, 12:39 AM
I've started to form a head-theory that says these "beyond your limits" power-ups, especially ones from outside forces, may tend to deteriorate quickly if you don't train to maintain them. Almost as if your body wants to reject your new power and return to "normal" unless you take action to make that new power truly yours.

Kuririn got a huge boost on Namek, but he kept training after he was revived, so he kept his power. Gohan didn't train after Namek, and so his power may have dipped somewhat (enough that he got his butt kicked by powers between 150-200k in Movie 5). Gohan again didn't train after the Cell Games, so the new amazing power he unlocked (SS2) may have degraded a bit. Gohan once again didn't train at all after the Boo arc, so after 5-ish years his ridiculously inflated "Ultimate" power-up may have quickly faded away. Vegeta always trains, so the boost he received from Bobbidi stuck around. Etc.

Just a fan-theory, but it makes sense if you ask me. It's the type of one-off explanation you'd expect from Toriyama if asked such a tricky power-related question.
I do like your theory, but it opens up a very big can of worms with people like Krillin who did about as much training as Gohan in later timeskips, maybe even less if you consider the latter sparring with his powerful younger brother to be more valuable than working alone on some remote tropical island. For Gohan to go from being above Super Buu and Gotenks to questioning whether he can even turn normal SSJ and being defeated in one shot by 1st form Frieza with a confirmed power level of 1.3 million doesn't lend much confidence to others retaining much power either. Granted, Gohan did receive two potential unlocks in the past, but Krillin should be in even worse shape compared to Piccolo whom Shisami took care of if this standard holds true.
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* Yu Narukami
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Bullets are almost incomparable to laser beams. Goku didn't even have an aura. He was standing over his enemy with his guard completely down; if Freeza tried anything, he'd be able to react fast enough to raise his guard and not get hurt. He let it down on purpose, just like Vegeta did, because he knew Freeza was done. It's not like once you let your guard down, any attack launched at you will hit. As far as he knew, he had nothing to worry about; Sorbet's attack came from behind and took him by complete surprise. I think people underestimate how arrogant Goku was during that whole scene. Freeza was banking on Goku either giving him a lecture or telling him to leave so, if it came to it, that's when his back-up plan (Sorbet) would play out.
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+ Kaboom
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Thiln
Oct 12 2015, 01:13 AM
I do like your theory, but it opens up a very big can of worms with people like Krillin who did about as much training as Gohan in later timeskips, maybe even less if you consider the latter sparring with his powerful younger brother to be more valuable than working alone on some remote tropical island. For Gohan to go from being above Super Buu and Gotenks to questioning whether he can even turn normal SSJ and being defeated in one shot by 1st form Frieza with a confirmed power level of 1.3 million doesn't lend much confidence to others retaining much power either. Granted, Gohan did receive two potential unlocks in the past, but Krillin should be in even worse shape compared to Piccolo whom Shisami took care of if this standard holds true.



The idea is that Kuririn trained hard and soon enough after getting his unlock to permanently cement that power as his. It's no longer "beyond his limits," it's now firmly finalized as his normal power. Deciding to retire several years after that only means that he's not going to drastically improve.

Gohan, however, got his big unlocks and then just quit immediately. He didn't do anything to get a firm grasp on that power, and so it slipped away from him.
Edited by Kaboom, Oct 12 2015, 01:21 AM.
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