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Absolving the Saiyans
Topic Started: Oct 8 2015, 01:26 PM (570 Views)
ekrolo2
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I'm probably not the first or last guy to encounter this but does anyone else find it annoying that people try to absolve the Saiyan's and by extension Vegeta of their natural behavior by putting the blame squarely on Freeza for how they act/think?

One of the things I always liked about the Saiyan's is that they aren't some poor, innocent race that the evil meanie Freeza molded into weapons. They were all born vicious bastards (Minus be damned) who got off on destruction and genocide. Just a pack of vicious dogs Freeza found one day, "domesticated" enough for them to know who's boss and sent off to go bite whatever he told them to bite.

It added a nice bit of moral ambiguity to the whole Goku vs Freeza fight particularly when Freeza said "Compared to you brutes I'm a saint!" with Goku responding with "We paid for our crimes."

So, why do some people keep on wanting to victimize the Saiyan's? Do they simply want to find a victim in a situation that's essentially one evil bastard murdering a whole bunch of other evil bastards? Or do you think it's because they think that's too dark for Dragon Ball and try to work around this?
Edited by ekrolo2, Oct 8 2015, 01:26 PM.
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Thiln
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The Saiyans aren't victims by any stretch of the imagination. What Frieza did is no different than one cruel and barbaric civilisation persecuting another cruel and barbaric civilisation. The only difference is the means and efficiency for how they can go about bringing suffering onto other species. Before contact with the Planet Trade Organisation, the Saiyans were a primitive race. Frieza ended up enslaving them for some time, but in the process they were given access to advanced technologies like body armour, space pods, healing chambers, and power reading scouters. In fact, I would argue that Saiyans like Vegeta were given some measure of prestige in the PTO as well. Notice how everyone besides Cui seemed to defer to him on Planet Frieza 79 like he was a superior officer? Besides Vegeta's personal resentment for being controlled by others, it seems like he may have lived a fairly decent life as a warrior of some notoriety in Frieza's army - the only ones who outrank him being Dodoria, Zarbon, and the Ginyu Force.
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ekrolo2
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Nor does Vegeta himself seem to mind them being stronger until they become obstacles in his way. As long as he held the title of most powerful Saiyan, his pride wasn't particularly bothered by having someone like Qui be his equal in terms of power.
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ekrolo2
Oct 8 2015, 01:26 PM
One of the things I always liked about the Saiyan's is that they aren't some poor, innocent race that the evil meanie Freeza molded into weapons. They were all born vicious bastards (Minus be damned) who got off on destruction and genocide.
Excuse me, but Bardock is still committing genocide in the first few pages of minus. Just because he has feelings for his wife and son doesn't mean he isn't a genocidal maniac.

In regards to your overall question, people victimize the Saiyans because they were less evil, I guess. I can't help but roll my eyes though when people try to victimize Vegeta. The dude was f***ed in the head for the longest time. He got what he deserved when he was beaten up, was killed, or decided to sacrifice himself in vain. However, he has died and has gone to hell twice, so I'd say he's paid his dues.
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Oct 8 2015, 10:07 PM.
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lazerbem
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From what we can tell, the average Saiyan has a horrible case of racial supremacy and apathy towards other races. However, they have loyalty and can be friends with other Saiyans. My basis for this is Nappa and Bardock, who seem a good average. Raditz and Vegeta seem to be variants. Raditz cowers and begs unlike any other Saiyan and Vegeta is just a plain douche even to his own allies
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ekrolo2
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I think you can infer why they're both a bit abnormal. Raditz has spent roughly the same time Goku's been alive with Vegeta and Nappa both of who outclass him and can back him up if need be, out on his own and at someone else' mercy after living so long in a team like that probably would make someone freak out once their teammates aren't there to help them. As for Vegeta, he's royalty and basically stronger than any other Saiyan which likely made him worse personality wise than his kin.
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* Ketchup Revenge
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The Saiyans are more animalistic or brutish in nature than humans, with them having a love for physical competition. This seems to make them less capable of compassion.

Even them loving training doesn't seem to actually be the case, Goku and Vegeta seem to be the exception to this.

However, to say that these beings are inherently evil is going a little overboard imo. I believe that their culture as formed by Freeza made them that way. He just exploited the race's characteristics to his advantage.
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ekrolo2
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Oct 8 2015, 09:55 PM
ekrolo2
Oct 8 2015, 01:26 PM
One of the things I always liked about the Saiyan's is that they aren't some poor, innocent race that the evil meanie Freeza molded into weapons. They were all born vicious bastards (Minus be damned) who got off on destruction and genocide.
Excuse me, but Bardock is still committing genocide in the first few pages of minus. Just because he has feelings for his wife and son doesn't mean he isn't a genocidal maniac.

In regards to your overall question, people victimize the Saiyans because they were less evil, I guess. I can't help but roll my eyes though when people try to victimize Vegeta. The dude was f***ed in the head for the longest time. He got what he deserved when he was beaten up, was killed, or decided to sacrifice himself in vain. However, he has died and has gone to hell twice, so I'd say he's paid his dues.
Minus be damned was more of me stating that it's weird that a guy like Bardock would even find Gine appealing given how the Saiyan's usually act and think. In that kind of society, he'd probably go for someone more like himself instead. I. It's also weird they'd even let her stay on Vegeta since Tarble who's similar to her got kicked off. Could just be me not being able to get Toei Bardock out of my head since he's pretty ingrained into the fanbases' psyche.
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The English dub is to blamed a lot for making the Saiyans seem less "evil". I think it's quite well obvious in the original manga that the Saiyans are a cruel race and enjoy killing others and such, Frieza was just stronger and ordered the planet doesn't mean the Saiyans are now "good" even if Frieza wasn't there, every single Saiyan would kill people and fight for the joy.
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Majin Vegeta
Oct 10 2015, 10:30 AM
The English dub is to blamed a lot for making the Saiyans seem less "evil". I think it's quite well obvious in the original manga that the Saiyans are a cruel race and enjoy killing others and such, Frieza was just stronger and ordered the planet doesn't mean the Saiyans are now "good" even if Frieza wasn't there, every single Saiyan would kill people and fight for the joy.
The argument against this statement is Goku, and his good-hearted nature.

The bump on the head only erased his memory, and even people have suggested his "conditioning".
Simply the idea of conditioning suggests that the Saiyans aren't actually evil by nature.
If Goku was inherently evil because of a genetic predisposition to be like that, he wouldn't have lost that behavioral trait, even after he bumped his head. Yet Goku only enjoys competition, he doesn't actually enjoy hurting others, and even seems to try to avoid it whenever he can.

And in the bonus chapter in Jaco where we meet Bardock and Gine, as well as the other Saiyans, it seems quite clear that they're more roughnecks than evil.

Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Oct 11 2015, 12:08 AM.
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StrawHatCrew
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In Bardock's story they definitely seem to be depicted as evil. Even Goku says he isn't one of them. Raditz was evil, so was Vegeta at the beginning.

DragonBall doesn't really work by real-world logic, either I think.

Even AT himself said Bardock only had a little amount of humanity in him (even-though I'd say none).
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StrawHatCrew
Oct 11 2015, 12:08 AM
In Bardock's story they definitely seem to be depicted as evil. Even Goku says he isn't one of them. Raditz was evil, so was Vegeta at the beginning.

DragonBall doesn't really work by real-world logic, either I think.

Even AT himself said Bardock only had a little amount of humanity in him (even-though I'd say none).
If you read the bonus chapter in Jaco with Bardock and Gine, we see that he cares enough about his sons to not want them to die on Planet Vegeta, since he seemed to suspect what Freeza was up to.
Gine clearly cares about her children too, and her and Bardock are seen sending Goku off together in the pod.
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Oct 11 2015, 12:12 AM.
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Saiyajin Perfection
Oct 11 2015, 12:11 AM
StrawHatCrew
Oct 11 2015, 12:08 AM
In Bardock's story they definitely seem to be depicted as evil. Even Goku says he isn't one of them. Raditz was evil, so was Vegeta at the beginning.

DragonBall doesn't really work by real-world logic, either I think.

Even AT himself said Bardock only had a little amount of humanity in him (even-though I'd say none).
If you read the bonus chapter in Jaco with Bardock and Gine, we see that he cares enough about his sons to not want them to die on Planet Vegeta, since he seemed to suspect what Freeza was up to.
Gine clearly cares about her children too, and her and Bardock are seen sending Goku off together in the pod.
I was more talking about the TV Special.

DB-Minus seemed to have retconed it.
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