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Which version of Cell is Dabra equal to?
Topic Started: Oct 7 2015, 10:39 PM (9,733 Views)
EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

The thing is, Gohan's previous forms be they SSJ or SSJ2 all lost power. While Gohan's lack of rage (Which at this point may be more along the lines of helping him reach SSJ2) may play a part in his weakness, its made almost explicit that Gohan's lack of training is what has dropped him so low.

Quote:
 
Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”

Quote:
 

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”


People are constantly trying to bring up that Gohan's lack of anger is what's making him weak when that's not the case at all. He's weak because as quotes state, he's a lazy piece POS that hasn't done jack in the last seven years. That's obviously going to effect Gohan overall and not just a specific form he's in.
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+ Pyrus
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Suppressed Dabura? Now that's foolish.
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What is your gap for Perfect Cell and Perfect Cell's full power and Ssj1 Gohan (Cell arc)?


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Suppressed Dabura? Now that's foolish.


What? I wasn't hinting that Dabura is suppressed, if anything I was suggesting Goku might be wrong. You remember what p123 wrote about expecting the person to be at 100% full power unless otherwise stated that person wasn't. I was pointing out that 1. Goku felt and knows Cell's full power at the cell games, 2. Goku compared him to Cell and stated Dabura was stronger due to magic, which leads me to asking was Goku wrong?


Edited by Zoom, Oct 11 2015, 05:48 AM.
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SSj4 Gotenks
Oct 11 2015, 05:22 AM
This is what confuses me, was Goku simply wrong about Dabura being stronger due to magic or was Toriyama confused?

If we back up, Goku felt and was present when Perfect Cell showed his full powers when he faced SSj2 Gohan (kid).

Quote:
 
Goku: This.. is Cell's full power at last.

Volume 19, pg. 15


Unless Gohan's SSj1 form didn't loose any power, only his SSj2 form was effected by his lack of rage, then I'm confuse because someone was wrong about Dabura or Gohan.
Apparently AT intended for Dabura to be Cell tier but messed up in his own manga and made him a weakling.
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Raiken
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SSj4 Gotenks
Oct 11 2015, 05:22 AM
This is what confuses me, was Goku simply wrong about Dabura being stronger due to magic or was Toriyama confused?

If we back up, Goku felt and was present when Perfect Cell showed his full powers when he faced SSj2 Gohan (kid).

Quote:
 
Goku: This.. is Cell's full power at last.

Volume 19, pg. 15


Unless Gohan's SSj1 form didn't loose any power, only his SSj2 form was effected by his lack of rage, then I'm confuse because someone was wrong about Dabura or Gohan.
This is basically what I believe.

Gohan was only weaker in relation to Skill/Battle Sense when it came to Base/MSSJ, he might have gotten a little weaker in relation to Ki over the time-skip, but not by a noticeable amount.
And if it was a somewhat noticeable amount, he likely brought it back up a bit closer to what it was against Cell with his training for the Tournament.

SSJ2 and Hidden Power are often interlinked as though they are in fact, the same thing.
Every time someone wants Gohan to go SSJ2, they are like, get mad, show them your Hidden Power.
Everyone relates the transformation Gohan used against Cell to Gohan unleashing his Hidden Power.

Gohan getting mad = unleashing his Hidden Power = Going SSJ2
SSJ2 = MSSJ+Hidden Power Unleashed.

Everyone has varying levels of Hidden Power, Gohan has a lot of it though, but can only control so much.
At the Tournament, the amount of Hidden Power he managed to use to go SSJ2 was likely smaller than the amount he used against Cell to go SSJ2.

Vegeta's statements at the Tournament show that Gohan in SSJ2 was weaker than when he killed Cell. This is true.
But the statements made against Gohan against Dabura were primarily in relation to his skill and performance.
Gohan had powerful enough Ki for Goku and Vegeta to think he can take Dabura, otherwise they wouldn't have been so care free about letting him fight Dabura.
And Gohan holds his own quite well against someone who is compared to Cell in regards to power.

So it probably makes the most sense to compare Dabura in relation to Ki as Cell@Goku in his fight against Gohan as it appeared Gohan had an ever so slight power advantage.
Which makes sense with Gohan not loosing much or any power, as MSSJ Kid Gohan would have a slight physical advantage over Perfect Cell@Goku.
However, Dabura was more skilled than Gohan as a fighter and had Magic, which was likely why it was infuriating for Vegeta.
Vegeta could likely sense that Gohan was slightly more powerful than Dabura, but was loosing because Gohan's skills were rusty; on top of that, Dabura had Magic.

So to conclude, I believe that:

In Ki: Dabura = Perfect Cell@Goku
In Ki: Base/MSSJ Teen Gohan = Base/MSSJ Kid Gohan
In Ki: SSJ2 Kid Gohan > SSJ2 Teen Gohan
Dabura w/ Magic = Perfect Cell@Gohan => Dabura = Perfect Cell@Goku
Edited by Raiken, Oct 11 2015, 02:58 PM.
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lazerbem
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What skill did Dabra show except in sneak attacking and failing miserably at it?
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Notaka
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Pyrus
Oct 11 2015, 05:36 AM
Suppressed Dabura? Now that's foolish.
He could suppress himself in order to Revive buu.

Buu won't gain any energy if Dabra one shotted Gohan.
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Dabura didn't actually hurt Gohan, though. What's the point of suppressing to a point where you have no advantage?
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Notaka
Oct 11 2015, 07:24 PM
Pyrus
Oct 11 2015, 05:36 AM
Suppressed Dabura? Now that's foolish.
He could suppress himself in order to Revive buu.

Buu won't gain any energy if Dabra one shotted Gohan.
Wait, you can supply evidence of that? I saw no powerup or no statement of further power.
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Notaka
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Always Wright

Chapter: 459 (DBZ 265), P2.2-3
Badidi: “How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?”
Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.”

If this doesn't mean that Dabura is stronger than Gohan, Then I don't know what it would mean.

@Nagito Komaeda:
Gohan did actually take some damage.


Choose either one:
Dabura is as strong as Cell(Because Goku actually states this, and even changes his opinion saying that Dabura is even stronger than Cell because of his magic.And no, Full power Cell is a possibility, because goku witnessed his power), or SSJ Gohan is stronger than Suppressed perfect cell against Goku(Which I very doubt)
Edited by Notaka, Oct 11 2015, 08:16 PM.
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Notaka
Oct 11 2015, 08:14 PM
Chapter: 459 (DBZ 265), P2.2-3
Badidi: “How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?”
Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.”

If this doesn't mean that Dabura is stronger than Gohan, Then I don't know what it would mean.

@Nagito Komaeda:
Gohan did actually take some damage.
What's Dabura going to say? ''Sorry, Master Babidi, I'm not strong enough to take him out.''?

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6
Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

Goku specifies stamina, not ki.
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Notaka
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Nagito Komaeda
Oct 11 2015, 08:18 PM
Notaka
Oct 11 2015, 08:14 PM
Chapter: 459 (DBZ 265), P2.2-3
Badidi: “How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?”
Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.”

If this doesn't mean that Dabura is stronger than Gohan, Then I don't know what it would mean.

@Nagito Komaeda:
Gohan did actually take some damage.
What's Dabura going to say? ''Sorry, Master Babidi, I'm not strong enough to take him out.''?

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6
Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

Goku specifies stamina, not ki.
But he didn't.

About the quote you gave us, Gohan at his best IS stronger than Dabura.SSJ1 Gohan isn't.

Come on, Goku LITERALLY stated that Dabura is as strong, if not stronger than Cell.
Either one is stronger than Gohan.

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Vegeta states that Gohan is pathetic and should have been able to defeat dabura.

Let me ask you this:
If Gohan was stronger, why didn't he kill dabura ?
Simple answer, He's weaker than Him.
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Notaka
Oct 11 2015, 08:25 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Oct 11 2015, 08:18 PM
Notaka
Oct 11 2015, 08:14 PM
Chapter: 459 (DBZ 265), P2.2-3
Badidi: “How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?”
Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.”

If this doesn't mean that Dabura is stronger than Gohan, Then I don't know what it would mean.

@Nagito Komaeda:
Gohan did actually take some damage.
What's Dabura going to say? ''Sorry, Master Babidi, I'm not strong enough to take him out.''?

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6
Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

Goku specifies stamina, not ki.
But he didn't.

About the quote you gave us, Gohan at his best IS stronger than Dabura.SSJ1 Gohan isn't.

Come on, Goku LITERALLY stated that Dabura is as strong, if not stronger than Cell.
Either one is stronger than Gohan.

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Vegeta states that Gohan is pathetic and should have been able to defeat dabura.

Let me ask you this:
If Gohan was stronger, why didn't he kill dabura ?
Simple answer, He's weaker than Him.
He didn't beat Dabura right away because Dabura was focusing on using tricks and magic to fight. Notice how Dabura uses his stone spit against Gohan. If he was suppressing, why would he use a technique that would rob Babidi of an energy source? Not exactly the MO of a superior fighter, is it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Babidi comment on Dabura's poor performance, saying that he needs to cause more damage? Even Dabura's magic attack, which hit Gohan head-on, hardly did anything. Gohan just flies back up and rips off his torn gi.
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Notaka
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Nagito Komaeda
Oct 11 2015, 08:28 PM
Notaka
Oct 11 2015, 08:25 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Oct 11 2015, 08:18 PM
Notaka
Oct 11 2015, 08:14 PM
Chapter: 459 (DBZ 265), P2.2-3
Badidi: “How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?”
Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.”

If this doesn't mean that Dabura is stronger than Gohan, Then I don't know what it would mean.

@Nagito Komaeda:
Gohan did actually take some damage.
What's Dabura going to say? ''Sorry, Master Babidi, I'm not strong enough to take him out.''?

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6
Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

Goku specifies stamina, not ki.
But he didn't.

About the quote you gave us, Gohan at his best IS stronger than Dabura.SSJ1 Gohan isn't.

Come on, Goku LITERALLY stated that Dabura is as strong, if not stronger than Cell.
Either one is stronger than Gohan.

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Vegeta states that Gohan is pathetic and should have been able to defeat dabura.

Let me ask you this:
If Gohan was stronger, why didn't he kill dabura ?
Simple answer, He's weaker than Him.
He didn't beat Dabura right away because Dabura was focusing on using tricks and magic to fight. Notice how Dabura uses his stone spit against Gohan. If he was suppressing, why would he use a technique that would rob Babidi of an energy source? Not exactly the MO of a superior fighter, is it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Babidi comment on Dabura's poor performance, saying that he needs to cause more damage? Even Dabura's magic attack, which hit Gohan head-on, hardly did anything. Gohan just flies back up and rips off his torn gi.
He used the technique so he can Immobilize Gohan to rake out Gohan's energy sending him to Buu.

It's easy to damage an immobilized opponent.

Babidi's quote just proves my point further, Because he knows that Dabura is much more capable of this, hinting that he was suppressed against Gohan.

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P2.5-6
Babidi: "Thr... 3,000 kiri...!! H-how does an Earthling have 3,000 kiri of energy...?!!
Dabra: “3,000 kiri…That’s strange…There shouldn’t be any human race like that.”

He's not even remotely shocked about Goku's power, after 7 YEARS of TRAINING.
He's just surprised.

Unless you have SSJ Gohan stronger than SSJ Goku.
Edited by Notaka, Oct 11 2015, 08:34 PM.
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Notaka
Oct 11 2015, 08:34 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Oct 11 2015, 08:28 PM
Notaka
Oct 11 2015, 08:25 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Oct 11 2015, 08:18 PM
Notaka
Oct 11 2015, 08:14 PM
Chapter: 459 (DBZ 265), P2.2-3
Badidi: “How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?”
Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.”

If this doesn't mean that Dabura is stronger than Gohan, Then I don't know what it would mean.

@Nagito Komaeda:
Gohan did actually take some damage.
What's Dabura going to say? ''Sorry, Master Babidi, I'm not strong enough to take him out.''?

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P4.4-6
Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

Goku specifies stamina, not ki.
But he didn't.

About the quote you gave us, Gohan at his best IS stronger than Dabura.SSJ1 Gohan isn't.

Come on, Goku LITERALLY stated that Dabura is as strong, if not stronger than Cell.
Either one is stronger than Gohan.

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Vegeta states that Gohan is pathetic and should have been able to defeat dabura.

Let me ask you this:
If Gohan was stronger, why didn't he kill dabura ?
Simple answer, He's weaker than Him.
He didn't beat Dabura right away because Dabura was focusing on using tricks and magic to fight. Notice how Dabura uses his stone spit against Gohan. If he was suppressing, why would he use a technique that would rob Babidi of an energy source? Not exactly the MO of a superior fighter, is it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Babidi comment on Dabura's poor performance, saying that he needs to cause more damage? Even Dabura's magic attack, which hit Gohan head-on, hardly did anything. Gohan just flies back up and rips off his torn gi.
He used the technique so he can Immobilize Gohan to rake out Gohan's energy sending him to Buu.

It's easy to damage an immobilized opponent.

Babidi's quote just proves my point further, Because he knows that Dabura is much more capable of this, hinting that he was suppressed against Gohan.

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P2.5-6
Babidi: "Thr... 3,000 kiri...!! H-how does an Earthling have 3,000 kiri of energy...?!!
Dabra: “3,000 kiri…That’s strange…There shouldn’t be any human race like that.”

He's not even remotely shocked about Goku's power, after 7 YEARS of TRAINING.
He's just surprised.

Unless you have SSJ Gohan stronger than SSJ Goku.
You mean, immobilise him by turning him to stone? He can't hurt him when he's stone, otherwise he'd just die. The stone spit was a move made in desperation.

Yeah, and apparently (according to Daiz 7, iirc) you only need 300 kiri to destroy a planet or two. We know that Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga is capable of destroying a planet, so even if we low-ball it and say 300 kiri = 10,000, that would mean SSJ Goku is 100,000.
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