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Thoughts on SSJ2, what exactly is it?; Goku and Vegeta's SSJ2 boost capped, Gohan's limit much higher?
Topic Started: Oct 3 2015, 06:39 PM (1,231 Views)
Raiken
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THIS IS FOCUSED ON MANGA CANON, IGNORE SUPER.

SSJ2 was originally not SSJ2 at all. It was simply Gohan unleashing and controlling his hidden power as a Super Saiyan, implied to be something unique to him alone.

Later this was retconed into something that all Sayains, as long as they were powerful/skilled enough could achieve.
However, while it was retconed, I believe the initial premise and idea of what SSJ2 is still remains the same.

I believe what SSJ2 actually is, is as a Super Saiyan, unleashing and controlling your hidden power. SSJ+Hidden Power=SSJ2.
Also perhaps you need to have mastered SSJ to have the Ki control to accomplish such a feat? Who knows, but that is likely the case.
So MSSJ+Hidden Power=SSJ2.

So basically, during the 7 year gap, Goku and Vegeta both learn how to tap into, control and augment their Super Saiyan forms with their dormant/hidden power, just like Gohan did against Cell.
I do not believe SSJ2 is simply a next level transformation that you can just unlock and that's it, there's gotta be more to it than that as that just seems like bulls***, it makes far more sense for it to relate more to what SSJ2 was originally implied to be.

While the standard multiplier people use is 2x, that's just an average figure given by a Databook.
I believe the SSJ2 boost would be dependant on the individual's respective hidden/dormant power and how much of it they can draw on and control.
Gohan clearly had a boost bigger than 2x against Cell, as the amount of Hidden Power he unleashed was larger than normal, as Gohan is known for having incredible reserves of hidden power; which was Goku's whole game plan for defeating Cell.
So understandably, Gohan's SSJ2 boost could potentially be a much larger boost than Goku's or Vegeta's. Which is why Goku believes if Gohan fights with his feelings like he did against Cell and draws out his true power, no one can beat him.
So as stated, the boost SSJ2 provides is capped depending on the amount of hidden/dormant power the user has. Goku and Vegeta both seemed to reach their "peak" as SSJ2's in that they were capped.
In that there was no more hidden power to unleash. But with Gohan, it appears to be much larger than what Goku and Vegeta possess.

Goku may have originally pushed Gohan to become the first SSJ2 because it would have been easier and quicker for him, because Gohan's hidden power was known for spilling out because of how large it was.
Goku unleashing and controlling his hidden power because of how less prominent it was, may have taken much more time, skill and training to master. Which was why he placed his hopes on Gohan against Cell and not himself.

At the World Tournament, as an SSJ2, Gohan was stated to be weaker than when he was when he fought Cell.
But yet as an MSSJ, he's matching Dabura, who was compared to Perfect Cell.
People sometimes use the 2x boost for SSJ2 all-round, so naturally, they downscale Gohan because they assume he gets much weaker, but then in that case, Dabura should defeat MSSJ Gohan with little difficulty.
But no, It's because Gohan at the Cell Games had a much larger SSJ2 boost than he did at the World Tournament.
The SSJ2 he displayed at the World Tournament could be compared to the kind of boost that Goku and Vegeta get, around 2x. Basically, Gohan at the Tournament could not tap into the same extent of hidden power that he could against Cell.
Which is why Gohan is weaker at the Tournament than against Cell.

And just to add on, not really the main point of this thread, for MSSJ Gohan matching Dabura who was compared to Cell, it also doesn't make sense for Base/MSSJ Gohan to have gotten weaker over the time-skip in relation to Ki, otherwise he'd be easily defeated.
He was clearly matching Dabura in Ki, in that he wasn't getting overwhelmed, he was being berated primarily because of his lack of battle sense and combat skill.
If it was a matter of Ki, they simply wouldn't have let Gohan fight Dabura, they in their minds thought Gohan was strong enough to be able to take Dabura, but despite having enough Ki to match him, he was loosing because of sloppy skills.

So as for Teen Gohan, only his Battle Sense/Combat Skill suffered over the 7 year Time-Skip.
His Ki stayed the same, so roughly...

Base Kid Gohan = Base Teen Gohan.
MSSJ Kid Gohan = MSSJ Teen Gohan
True-SSJ2 Kid Gohan > SSJ2 Teen Gohan

It was simply that Gohan's SSJ2 had gotten weaker and that his battle sense/skill had gotten weaker as a whole; his Base/MSSJ were just as strong.
Edited by Raiken, Oct 3 2015, 08:15 PM.
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Tl;dr but I'm pretty sure it's just a super charged ssj1
IT'S CHEESE
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Raiken
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Ssj3vegito96
Oct 3 2015, 07:45 PM
Tl;dr but I'm pretty sure it's just a super charged ssj1
Pointless posting if you didn't read it.
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Billa
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Thala na Gethu!

As a kid, I thought Super Saiyan 2 form as a "mystique" state.

Like Gohan was all-emo & gave a pissed look throughout Cell Games

Like-wise, Goku & Vegeta showed initially during their transformations, but cool down later

Either way, I really feel its something special..
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Instant Transmission
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SSJ2 is not a transformation. and neither is SSJ3. Both are powered up states of the same transformation, Super Saiyan.
Ascended Super Saiyan=SSJ2. It's taking Super Saiyan, to the next level. that's all..
as for multipliers, imo there is no such thing. they just get a boost that fits the plot. i highly doubt Super Saiyans have a fixed power.. if nothing is said in series, i think there's not point thinking about regardless of who said what off universe. if Toriyama for example really took anything seriously, he'd retcon it in universe.

Also, didn't Goku say Dabura was AROUND Cells level? in the cell games. not to mention he never said whether it was Cell before or after his power up. just Cell.
l
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* Ketchup Revenge
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

Toriyama recently simply stated that SSj2 and SSj3 were simply powered up versions of SSj.

This in my mind says that they are Super Saiyan, but modifications have been made to the transformation to allow it to have the limits extended beyond that of regular Super Saiyan. In other words, all these forms are actually the same form, just different versions of it.

It's more like Super Saiyan "version" 2, Super Saiyan "version" 3.
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Raiken
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Saiyajin Perfection
Oct 4 2015, 12:30 PM
Toriyama recently simply stated that SSj2 and SSj3 were simply powered up versions of SSj.

This in my mind says that they are Super Saiyan, but modifications have been made to the transformation to allow it to have the limits extended beyond that of regular Super Saiyan. In other words, all these forms are actually the same form, just different versions of it.

It's more like Super Saiyan "version" 2, Super Saiyan "version" 3.
I also find it's quite clear Toriyama in his old age has no idea what he's doing anymore.

It was quite clearly originally established that what Gohan did against Cell, was unleash and control his hidden power as a mastered Super Saiyan.
By logical thought, that is what SSJ2 is, tapping into and maintaining your dormant/hidden power as a Super Saiyan.

SSJ2 and SSJ3 are clearly not simply "powered up", that's SSJ G2 / G3.
Yes they are all forms of Super Saiyan at their base, I agree, but they're not simply powered up states.
SSJ G2 / G3 are purely powered up states of Super Saiyan.
SSJ2 is clearly to do with Hidden/Dormant Power and controlling it as a Super Saiyan.
SSJ3 is more to do with transformation, perhaps tapping into 100% of the Saiyans Genetic Potential or something, which explains the Oozaru feature (raised brow bone), and instead of growing hair all over their body, it's all focused on the head hair; just some thoughts since SSJ3 is less explained.
Edited by Raiken, Oct 4 2015, 01:26 PM.
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* Ketchup Revenge
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Raiken
Oct 4 2015, 01:10 PM
Saiyajin Perfection
Oct 4 2015, 12:30 PM
Toriyama recently simply stated that SSj2 and SSj3 were simply powered up versions of SSj.

This in my mind says that they are Super Saiyan, but modifications have been made to the transformation to allow it to have the limits extended beyond that of regular Super Saiyan. In other words, all these forms are actually the same form, just different versions of it.

It's more like Super Saiyan "version" 2, Super Saiyan "version" 3.
I also find it's quite clear Toriyama in his old age has no idea what he's doing anymore.

It was quite clearly originally established that what Gohan did against Cell, was unleash and control his hidden power as a mastered Super Saiyan.
By logical thought, that is what SSJ2 is, tapping into and maintaining your dormant/hidden power as a Super Saiyan.

SSJ2 and SSJ3 are clearly not simply "powered up", that's SSJ G2 / G3.
Yes they are all forms of Super Saiyan at their base, I agree, but they're not simply powered up states.
SSJ G2 / G3 are purely powered up states of Super Saiyan.
SSJ2 is clearly to do with Hidden/Dormant Power and controlling it as a Super Saiyan.
SSJ3 is more to do with transformation, perhaps tapping into 100% of the Saiyans Genetic Potential or something, which explains the Oozaru feature (raised brow bone), and instead of growing hair all over their body, it's all focused on the head hair; just some thoughts since SSJ3 is less explained.
It never was established as exclusively for Gohan. There's no evidence to this at all.

If you use the same logic to apply it to that, then you could argue that the same thing applies to Goku when it comes to Super Saiyan. Advancement of the plot always changes intentions of the events that happen previously. We see this happen with almost everything that Toriyama has written in the series.

Also to counter your point, Grades 2 and 3 are power ups from modifying an unmastered form of Super Saiyan. Just because the details aren't the same between the grades and levels doesn't mean that the two aren't actually the same concept.

One could argue that SSj3 is just as flawed as SSj Grade 3, just in a different way. Grade 2 could be argued to be the same thing as SSj2, just the details have changed, making one a more efficient power up from their respective Super Saiyan states than the other.
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Oct 4 2015, 03:42 PM.
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...

ssj2 and ssj3 are all single ssj, just exaggerating formations.

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Raiken
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Saiyajin Perfection
Oct 4 2015, 03:39 PM
Raiken
Oct 4 2015, 01:10 PM
Saiyajin Perfection
Oct 4 2015, 12:30 PM
Toriyama recently simply stated that SSj2 and SSj3 were simply powered up versions of SSj.

This in my mind says that they are Super Saiyan, but modifications have been made to the transformation to allow it to have the limits extended beyond that of regular Super Saiyan. In other words, all these forms are actually the same form, just different versions of it.

It's more like Super Saiyan "version" 2, Super Saiyan "version" 3.
I also find it's quite clear Toriyama in his old age has no idea what he's doing anymore.

It was quite clearly originally established that what Gohan did against Cell, was unleash and control his hidden power as a mastered Super Saiyan.
By logical thought, that is what SSJ2 is, tapping into and maintaining your dormant/hidden power as a Super Saiyan.

SSJ2 and SSJ3 are clearly not simply "powered up", that's SSJ G2 / G3.
Yes they are all forms of Super Saiyan at their base, I agree, but they're not simply powered up states.
SSJ G2 / G3 are purely powered up states of Super Saiyan.
SSJ2 is clearly to do with Hidden/Dormant Power and controlling it as a Super Saiyan.
SSJ3 is more to do with transformation, perhaps tapping into 100% of the Saiyans Genetic Potential or something, which explains the Oozaru feature (raised brow bone), and instead of growing hair all over their body, it's all focused on the head hair; just some thoughts since SSJ3 is less explained.
It never was established as exclusively for Gohan. There's no evidence to this at all.

If you use the same logic to apply it to that, then you could argue that the same thing applies to Goku when it comes to Super Saiyan. Advancement of the plot always changes intentions of the events that happen previously. We see this happen with almost everything that Toriyama has written in the series.

Also to counter your point, Grades 2 and 3 are power ups from modifying an unmastered form of Super Saiyan. Just because the details aren't the same between the grades and levels doesn't mean that the two aren't actually the same concept.

One could argue that SSj3 is just as flawed as SSj Grade 3, just in a different way. Grade 2 could be argued to be the same thing as SSj2, just the details have changed, making one a more efficient power up from their respective Super Saiyan states than the other.
Actually, what became known as SSJ2 in the Buu Arc, was originally entirely established as Gohan unleashing his Hidden Power.

It makes no sense for SSJ2 simply to be a correctly powered up SSJ (as opposed the the Grade Forms), since that wasn't what it was established to be at all.

It is stated that the hope was for Gohan to unleash his hidden power and he'd be able to beat Cell; and to do that, he needed to get mad.
Nothing is even mentioned of Super Saiyan appart from the fact he already was one.

Goku when trying to figure out how to get more powerful, even said the best thing to do was to master the normal Super Saiyan Form and not try to power up further like Vegeta and Trunks did as he deemed it pointless.
Which implies there IS NO correct way to power up Super Saiyan; unless you're tapping into different areas of Ki, e.g. Hidden/Dormant Power.
Goku later caught on to the concept of tapping into ones hidden power and unleashing it through Gohan, who's Hidden/Dormant Power was vast and had a habbit of slipping to the surface. So Goku placed his bets on Gohan.
Clearly later on, Goku realised he could achieve something similar himself through training.

He states Gohan was already starting to awaken that power already in the Room of Spirit and Time.
Spoiler: click to toggle

Along with the above panel, all these panels support the notion of what Gohan did against Cell as unleashing his Hidden Power, as a Super Saiyan.
Spoiler: click to toggle

Spoiler: click to toggle

Spoiler: click to toggle

Spoiler: click to toggle


SSJ2 is not a correctly powered up Super Saiyan, in that the Grade Forms Trunks and Vegeta used were the Incorrect way.
SSJ2 is being able to tap into your dormant/hidden power as a Super Saiyan and maintain and control it.

If not, if SSJ2 is simply a correctly powered up SSJ, where as the Grade Forms are the incorrect way.
All the statements about Gohan and why he was to fight and be able to beat Cell, make no sense.
Edited by Raiken, Oct 4 2015, 05:00 PM.
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

Raiken
Oct 4 2015, 04:56 PM
Saiyajin Perfection
Oct 4 2015, 03:39 PM
Raiken
Oct 4 2015, 01:10 PM
Saiyajin Perfection
Oct 4 2015, 12:30 PM
Toriyama recently simply stated that SSj2 and SSj3 were simply powered up versions of SSj.

This in my mind says that they are Super Saiyan, but modifications have been made to the transformation to allow it to have the limits extended beyond that of regular Super Saiyan. In other words, all these forms are actually the same form, just different versions of it.

It's more like Super Saiyan "version" 2, Super Saiyan "version" 3.
I also find it's quite clear Toriyama in his old age has no idea what he's doing anymore.

It was quite clearly originally established that what Gohan did against Cell, was unleash and control his hidden power as a mastered Super Saiyan.
By logical thought, that is what SSJ2 is, tapping into and maintaining your dormant/hidden power as a Super Saiyan.

SSJ2 and SSJ3 are clearly not simply "powered up", that's SSJ G2 / G3.
Yes they are all forms of Super Saiyan at their base, I agree, but they're not simply powered up states.
SSJ G2 / G3 are purely powered up states of Super Saiyan.
SSJ2 is clearly to do with Hidden/Dormant Power and controlling it as a Super Saiyan.
SSJ3 is more to do with transformation, perhaps tapping into 100% of the Saiyans Genetic Potential or something, which explains the Oozaru feature (raised brow bone), and instead of growing hair all over their body, it's all focused on the head hair; just some thoughts since SSJ3 is less explained.
It never was established as exclusively for Gohan. There's no evidence to this at all.

If you use the same logic to apply it to that, then you could argue that the same thing applies to Goku when it comes to Super Saiyan. Advancement of the plot always changes intentions of the events that happen previously. We see this happen with almost everything that Toriyama has written in the series.

Also to counter your point, Grades 2 and 3 are power ups from modifying an unmastered form of Super Saiyan. Just because the details aren't the same between the grades and levels doesn't mean that the two aren't actually the same concept.

One could argue that SSj3 is just as flawed as SSj Grade 3, just in a different way. Grade 2 could be argued to be the same thing as SSj2, just the details have changed, making one a more efficient power up from their respective Super Saiyan states than the other.
Actually, what became known as SSJ2 in the Buu Arc, was originally entirely established as Gohan unleashing his Hidden Power.

It makes no sense for SSJ2 simply to be a correctly powered up SSJ (as opposed the the Grade Forms), since that wasn't what it was established to be at all.

It is stated that the hope was for Gohan to unleash his hidden power and he'd be able to beat Cell; and to do that, he needed to get mad.
Nothing is even mentioned of Super Saiyan appart from the fact he already was one.

Goku when trying to figure out how to get more powerful, even said the best thing to do was to master the normal Super Saiyan Form and not try to power up further like Vegeta and Trunks did as he deemed it pointless.
Which implies there IS NO correct way to power up Super Saiyan; unless you're tapping into different areas of Ki, e.g. Hidden/Dormant Power.
Goku later caught on to the concept of tapping into ones hidden power and unleashing it through Gohan, who's Hidden/Dormant Power was vast and had a habbit of slipping to the surface. So Goku placed his bets on Gohan.
Clearly later on, Goku realised he could achieve something similar himself through training.

He states Gohan was already starting to awaken that power already in the Room of Spirit and Time.
Spoiler: click to toggle

Along with the above panel, all these panels support the notion of what Gohan did against Cell as unleashing his Hidden Power, as a Super Saiyan.
Spoiler: click to toggle

Spoiler: click to toggle

Spoiler: click to toggle

Spoiler: click to toggle


SSJ2 is not a correctly powered up Super Saiyan, in that the Grade Forms Trunks and Vegeta used were the Incorrect way.
SSJ2 is being able to tap into your dormant/hidden power as a Super Saiyan and maintain and control it.

If not, if SSJ2 is simply a correctly powered up SSJ, where as the Grade Forms are the incorrect way.
All the statements about Gohan and why he was to fight and be able to beat Cell, make no sense.
Super Saiyan is the dormant power, Super Saiyan 2 is simply deeper into dormant power.

And Goku knew nothing about further transformations beyond FPSSj, all he knew was that Gohan's hidden ki being released while he was a Super Saiyan would make him unbelievably powerful, just like it always had. Goku had no way of knowing that it would make Gohan transform into another state from Super Saiyan.

And technically, Super Saiyan 2 was originally known as "Super Saiyan Grade 5", as according to the History of Trunks guide that was published with the movie (1993). It wasn't considered a second Super Saiyan stage until the Boo Arc.
ref:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2013/01/26/what-was-super-saiyan-2-before-it-was-named/

This means that prior to the introduction of levels, it was simply considered (and written) as simply another grade of Super Saiyan.
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Anthonest
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The Penultimate Saiyan

You lost me when you tried to argue against the Daizenshuu, beyond that everything you're saying is pure speculation.
Edited by Anthonest, Oct 5 2015, 08:15 AM.
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Anthonest
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The Penultimate Saiyan

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Oct 4 2015, 03:19 AM
SSJ2 is not a transformation. and neither is SSJ3. Both are powered up states of the same transformation, Super Saiyan.
Ascended Super Saiyan=SSJ2. It's taking Super Saiyan, to the next level. that's all..
as for multipliers, imo there is no such thing. they just get a boost that fits the plot. i highly doubt Super Saiyans have a fixed power.. if nothing is said in series, i think there's not point thinking about regardless of who said what off universe. if Toriyama for example really took anything seriously, he'd retcon it in universe.

Also, didn't Goku say Dabura was AROUND Cells level? in the cell games. not to mention he never said whether it was Cell before or after his power up. just Cell.
False, SSJ2 and SSJ3 alike have been referred too as transformations countless times throughout the series and I doubt there's any evidence stating there not 'transformations'.
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Raiken
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Don't most of them Daizenshuu contradict each other a hell of a lot.
Pretty sure one says Gohan was SSJ2 against Dabura.

They are clearly not reliable sources.
I'm just looking into what the Manga has displayed to us.
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I'm not entirely sure where you're getting the idea that Gohan's form at the Cell Games was just him unleashing his potential. In one of the guidebooks, before Super Saiyan 2 was even a thing, it was labeled as Super Saiyan Grade 5, so I'd definitely argue it was a higher level of Super Saiyan.
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