Goku does not have greater natural talent than Vegeta

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Goku does not have greater natural talent than Vegeta
Tweet Topic Started: Sep 27 2015, 02:11 AM (1,267 Views)
FutureSaiyan	Sep 27 2015, 02:11 AM Post #1
Posts: 924 Group: Member Member #11,997 Joined: January 18, 2015 Gender Male Country Australia Favourite Anime Dragonball Z, Naruto, Bleach, AoT, Death Note, FMAB Favourite Manga DBZ	So i'll begin by saying the point of this isnto explain why Vegeta is not naturally behind Goku in power, more so that Goku plays better cards. So to begin with in the saiyan saga, Vegeta is a lot stronger than Goku (minus kioken), Then as we transfer into the namek saga, Hoku has access to gravity training which propels his power through the roof, while vegeta gets stronger by constantly reaching near death. Due to plot Goku becomes significantly superior to Vegeta by the time Trunks arrives, however in 3 years not only did Vegeta close the massive gap (keeping in mind Goku was still getting stronger) but Vegeta even surpassed Goku. This demonstrates an incredible rate if power growth and potential. Now here's where Goku starts playing his cards better, His methods in ascending past super saiyan were far superior to Vegeta, hence he became far more powerful but more so due to the fact that their training took them each in diffeent directions, Goku's being more effective. Now here i contradict myself a little because Vegeta re enters the hyperbolic time chamber and assuming he used Goku's training method did not get nearly as much progression as Goku, but i put that more to plot. Then in the Buu saga, both Saiyans grow immensly, Goku gaining ss3 and once again superior to Vegeta, however Goku states it was a technique learnt in other world and it's a lot harder to maintain on earth. It is heavily implied Goku had access to various unique training methods in other world that no amount of training alone in a gravity chamber could match. (hence how he learnt fusion). So my general consensus is that Goku isn't necessarily a matural prodigy compared to Vegeta, bht more so has had greater oppertunities to grow his power. Now we see in RnF when they both have access to the same training, they are more or less equal in power. Let me know what you think



Thiln	Sep 27 2015, 02:54 AM Post #2
Posts: 2,481 Group: Member Member #12,166 Joined: March 23, 2015 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball, Attack on Titan What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Hokuto no Ken, Berserk, Dragon Ball, Rurouni Kenshin, Attack on Titan, Kuroshitsuji	By "natural talent" I assume we're talking about power acquirement - in which case, the honour of being deemed the most talented could be given to Frieza or Gohan if the selection pool is limited to the circle of protagonists. Goku and Vegeta only became the up-and-coming prodigies destined to become greater than the deities when Toriyama and Toei decided to centralise the limelight to the point where only they were allowed to steer the plot in any significant way. Usually when the phrase "natural talent" is used my mind associates it with attributes separate from raw strength attainment like skill, intelligence, resourcefulness, ect. My question then becomes why people immediately jump to the conclusion that Vegeta or Goku are the most talented. Taking power levels out of the equation, what makes them any more capable than the likes of Piccolo or Roshi? But I digress. Original question: You make a compelling argument about Goku's superiority largely being thanks to circumstantial training methods than some inborn talent allowing him to making stronger gains when the playing board is equalised for both characters. Although, I would argue that Goku's willingness to diversify his roster of techniques so that it can encompass other abilities like the Instant Transmission and Taiyoken makes him the more resourceful fighter when compared to Vegeta's technique repertoire which you can sum up as being "Ki blast spam" followed up with "Ki blast lasers" and maybe an explosion wave or two. Edited by Thiln, Sep 27 2015, 02:56 AM.



+ Clearin	Sep 27 2015, 03:01 AM Post #3
Posts: 12,580 Group: Elite Member Member #6,372 Joined: June 18, 2011 Gender Not Specified Country United Kingdom	Their training in the RoSaT proves that Goku is a much smarter trainer when on equal training grounds, calling that "plot" is just a cop-out. Vegeta sums it up: I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am… Goku has more teachers, but Vegeta has access to better training conditions on average. Vegeta likely surpassed Goku in the Android saga due to him having the 300x gravity, which I guess in this case was better than training with partners (if anything Gohan and Piccolo may have held Goku back). If we're talking raw potential then we know Vegeta had far more potential when they were younger, since Vegeta was stronger than King Vegeta, while Goku having his potential released as a kid brought him up to King Piccolo, a pretty massive gap. But in the Boo saga Vegeta had his potential brought past its limits and he was only equal to Goku. We're not exactly told that Goku has reached his limit in the Boo saga, so effectively we get a potential-chain of: Goku (potential) > Goku (Boo) ~ Majin Vegeta (aka Vegeta past his potential) > Vegeta (Potential) >or~ Vegeta (Pre-Babidi powerup)



Billa	Sep 27 2015, 09:40 AM Post #4
Thala na Gethu! Posts: 4,218 Group: Member Member #7,273 Joined: February 3, 2012 Favourite Anime Nothin What Browser do you use? Nothin Favourite Manga Nothin	Goku's ascension in ROST was just plot-device to nerf ASSJ Veggie & USSJ Trunks imo.. Like really. You have Top 2 Fav Heroes training & hypin potential big showdown against Cell. Outta nowhere Veggie comes & squashes Cell. Readers can RIP fantasizing abt all those special moves Goku trained... Though, I'd say the gap was crazy. FPSSJ Goku could match Cell blow 4 blow, yet ASSJ Veggie got destroyed in less than 3 moves. Buu Arc was the TRUE dividing point imo. SSJ2 Goku vs Majin Vegeta for instance. We all know Toriyama hates Veggie like anything. Making Veggie NEEDING Babidi's Magic JUST to get even with Goku. That too by making the fight a dead stalemate, while Majin Spopovitch vs Videl a brutal one-sided beatdown is quite...insulting



SuperSaiyan1993	Sep 27 2015, 03:19 PM Post #5
Super Saiyan among Super Saiyans Posts: 3,294 Group: Member Member #7,044 Joined: December 7, 2011 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Dragonball Z, Avatar	It can be argued that Goku and Vegeta have approximately equal potential. The key issue is the fact Goku chooses to let others teach him, and he lets himself rest after strenuous training sessions. If Vegeta did those things, he would likely always be equal with Goku. Say what you want about RoF, but at least Vegeta seems like an equal rival of Goku for the first time since the Majin Vegeta battle.
	We Super Saiyans are in a league of our own.


Delicieuxz	Sep 27 2015, 03:22 PM Post #6
Posts: 79 Group: Member Member #12,034 Joined: January 29, 2015	I think it's circumstance that Goku stayed ahead of Vegeta. First off, Goku drank that magic water as a child, which increased his strength and toughness. He also did some training in the time chamber, and has the benefits of sensu beans after some major fights to immediately get a big power boost. Vegeta, on the other hand partially grew up on planet Vegeta with higher gravity. On the way to Namek, Goku trained in 100x gravity with sensu beans to achieve rapid power growth. Goku says during the final Buu fight with Vegeta on the Kai's planet that Vegeta's body, after he's brought back to life, won't be able to withstand as much as before. Also, Goku says to Trunks and Goten at the lookout while training them that in Other World his body is able to handle high energy better. So that means when Goku trained on King Kai's planet, he was able to push his body more in training, and during the time that he was in Other World after fighting Cell he got to train with a huge advantage over Vegeta's efforts for many years. And despite all those advantages, when Goku fought Vegeta during Buu saga, they were still pretty close in strength. Vegeta also has a handicap of his anger, which works against his mind and ability to harness all of his power and direct it altogether as one. So I think that there isn't particularly a difference between their potentials or abilities, and that the difference is easily accounted for in all the different ways that Goku had circumstantial advantages in making progress over Vegeta. Without those advantages, or if Vegeta had trained in Other World after Cell during the same time that Goku did, he might have become more powerful than Goku.



+ Clearin	Sep 27 2015, 03:35 PM Post #7
Posts: 12,580 Group: Elite Member Member #6,372 Joined: June 18, 2011 Gender Not Specified Country United Kingdom	Delicieuxz Sep 27 2015, 03:22 PM So I think that there isn't particularly a difference between their potentials or abilities, and that the difference is easily accounted for in all the different ways that Goku had circumstantial advantages in making progress over Vegeta. Without those advantages, or if Vegeta had trained in Other World after Cell during the same time that Goku did, he might have become more powerful than Goku. How? Vegeta had a better training environment on Earth than Goku had in heaven - that being a gravity chamber that can go up to 300x gravity. Vegeta says it himself, he had more special training, but Goku is a greater genius, so it allowed Goku to surpass Vegeta without the better training conditions.



Delicieuxz	Sep 27 2015, 04:08 PM Post #8
Posts: 79 Group: Member Member #12,034 Joined: January 29, 2015	Clearin Sep 27 2015, 03:35 PM Delicieuxz Sep 27 2015, 03:22 PM So I think that there isn't particularly a difference between their potentials or abilities, and that the difference is easily accounted for in all the different ways that Goku had circumstantial advantages in making progress over Vegeta. Without those advantages, or if Vegeta had trained in Other World after Cell during the same time that Goku did, he might have become more powerful than Goku. How? Vegeta had a better training environment on Earth than Goku had in heaven - that being a gravity chamber that can go up to 300x gravity. Vegeta says it himself, he had more special training, but Goku is a greater genius, so it allowed Goku to surpass Vegeta without the better training conditions. Goku is shown training in Other World wearing 40 tons of weights, showing that Goku trained with enough weight to create his needed challenge in training, so I don't think that Vegeta's gravity room gave him an environment advantage. Also, Goku said to Vegeta said he went through the most intense training in Other World, so whatever Goku did there, it was pushing him to his limits - and his limits in Other World are further off than in the normal world. When Vegeta says that he had better training, but Goku is a greater talent... well, he never watched Goku train, and he also hadn't been to Other World before then, so his comment is just made in presumption, explaining away to himself why Goku must always be ahead of him. Vegeta has no source to substantiate those thoughts of his.



+ Clearin	Sep 27 2015, 04:16 PM Post #9
Posts: 12,580 Group: Elite Member Member #6,372 Joined: June 18, 2011 Gender Not Specified Country United Kingdom	Goku only trained with 40 tons in one scene, and only for King Kai to show off to the other Kai. Goku was training with 2 ton weights on his own terms. Vegeta knows Goku is a bigger genius because he's seen him fight, and the only time they went to the same training environment, Goku came out stronger in less than half the time.



Delicieuxz	Sep 27 2015, 06:08 PM Post #10
Posts: 79 Group: Member Member #12,034 Joined: January 29, 2015	Clearin Sep 27 2015, 04:16 PM Goku only trained with 40 tons in one scene, and only for King Kai to show off to the other Kai. Goku was training with 2 ton weights on his own terms. Vegeta knows Goku is a bigger genius because he's seen him fight, and the only time they went to the same training environment, Goku came out stronger in less than half the time. Yes, but Goku was training at 8 tons in a non powered up state, and still pushing himself according to what he determined would be the best to further his training. The point is that Goku had access to, and was choosing the training that would be the most productive for him. That's the only scene that's shown, but Goku trained for 7 years in Other World after the Cell fight, which are not shown in the series. When Goku described that training to Vegeta, he said it was the most intense training, meaning that he was pushing himself as much as possible. And he was able to push himself further in Other World than normal because his body there can handle more, and regulates energy better, and heals faster.



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