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- Krillin or Tien?
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| Krillin or Tien? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 17 2015, 09:10 AM (5,522 Views) | |
| Thiln | Sep 20 2015, 11:21 PM Post #91 |
 
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The Cell Jr fight when Krillin was felled in only one blow whereas Tien was able to remain upright and continue fighting after the first strike before ultimately going down in a situation where contextually only the stronger fighters remained. Not that Tien fared much better, but it was noticeable that he could still fight despite receiving a kick to the head. |
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| + Clearin | Sep 20 2015, 11:24 PM Post #92 |
 
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Krillin's Cell Jr broke his spine... It's not really a fair comparison considering Tien's Cell Jr wasn't shown doing any paralyzing injuries. Using the Cell Jr fight as proof for the humans is a bad idea anyway, since the Cell Jrs could have killed them all in one hit, so any survivability they had in the fight was due to the Cell Jrs holding back. |
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| FutureProtagonist | Sep 20 2015, 11:27 PM Post #93 |
Quwrof Wrlccywrlir
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Just means that that Cell Junior toyed with Tenshinhan differently than Krillin. Krillin took two hits, Tenshinhan took one. Yamcha was standing up after that panel with Ten standing up, albeit he was having his arm broken, but who's to say that the Cell Junior wasn't doing something similar to Ten? Tenshinhan hit the ground at the exact same moment as Yamcha did. |
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| Thiln | Sep 20 2015, 11:38 PM Post #94 |
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The Cell Jr kneed Krillin in the back after he was already on the ground from the first strike. If we apply this logic, Tien should have suffered a fractured skull and quite possibly trauma to his brain when considering the amount of physical momentum that kick to the head must have been carrying. Playing around or not, the Cell Jrs were instructed to torture everyone; that becomes difficult to accomplish when your prey is still trying to hold you off. More than that, during that same panel where Tien is show to be retaliating against Cell Jr in the background, Cell is literally talking to Gohan about those who are and aren't putting up a fight against his spawn.
Actually, Tien took two hits to the head and collision against the rocks before going down. Yamcha in the aforementioned panel where Cell is conversing with Gohan is in a posture indicative of falling backward, as though he were attacked, which he was. He was never depicted as trying to fight back and I would argue that suffering trauma to your skull is worse than having your arm broken. Edited by Thiln, Sep 20 2015, 11:42 PM.
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| + Clearin | Sep 20 2015, 11:41 PM Post #95 |
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Yeah Krillin got knocked to the ground on the first strike. Tien may have been knocked to the ground by the kick he received too. The difference being Krillin's Cell Jr caused an injury that made it impossible to stand again. Yamcha was also up for longer than Krillin so you'd be arguing he's stronger too. Also if the goal of the Cell Jrs was to make everybody immobile, why did Yamcha and Tien not get taken down in a single hit? The Cell Jrs are at a bare minimum as strong as SSj Vegeta, and SSj Vegeta at this point could easily one shot the humans. |
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| FutureProtagonist | Sep 20 2015, 11:44 PM Post #96 |
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Quwrof Wrlccywrlir
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There isn't enough detail to conclude that he's throwing a punch. It's certainly not anywhere near its mark even if it is. If anything it looks like he's holding both of his arms out, his left arms seems to be mirroring his right. The Cell Juniors wouldn't crack Ten's skull because they weren't going for the kill. |
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| Thiln | Sep 20 2015, 11:49 PM Post #97 |
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We never actually see Tien collapse after the first hit; whether he did or not is just speculation. If Krillin was of a similar calibre then it should haven't been difficult to gather his bearings before hitting the ground. Then again, in just about every major fight Krillin has been in since the beginning of Z, he has a habit of being beaten in just one hit for whatever reason. We see this with Nappa, Vegeta, and Recoome. Power discrepancy or not, that's just flimsy. Gohan was of a similar level in those fights and it took more effort to bring him down. I don't know why the Cell Jrs didn't immediately use full power against the humans. It might have been for the same reasons why Base Goku was able to recover from damage inflicted by 50% Frieza, which the tyrant commended him for, it should be noted.
Spoiler: click to toggle Tien can be seen in a posture that's commonly used for fighters in this series who are actively fighting. Unless he just decided to protract his arm for whatever reason, he was making an effort to fight back. They're unwilling to crack Tien's skull because they're afraid it may kill him, yet they have no qualms with shattering Krillin's spinal cord, a very important part of the human body that's responsible for many essential functions including their respiratory system and ability to breath? Edited by Thiln, Sep 21 2015, 12:01 AM.
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| + Clearin | Sep 21 2015, 12:01 AM Post #98 |
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Krillin also threw a punch, doesn't mean anything. And again, the Cell Jrs COULD have knocked the humans out in one hit if they wanted. How on Earth are you going to argue that Tien can stand after being hit at full power by an SSj Vegeta level opponent. |
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| Thiln | Sep 21 2015, 12:10 AM Post #99 |
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Krillin threw a punch before ever getting attacked. That's quite different to having already incurred damage, but managing to recover enough so you can fight back, albeit only momentarily. I base much of it off the fact that it was occurring at exactly the same moment when Cell is looking around and explaining to Gohan who is and isn't able to fight back. It's all about visual context. To be fair, Krillin already proved himself capable of surviving a light tap from Perfect Cell while heavily suppressed. I don't find it unreasonable to believe that fighters who might be in the low millions at this time to survive and quite possibly recover from attacks made by playful enemies that are probably doing the equivalent to tapping them lightly. |
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| FutureProtagonist | Sep 21 2015, 12:14 AM Post #100 |
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Quwrof Wrlccywrlir
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What you're saying is, the Cell Junior couldn't have stopped him from the throwing the punch? In a fight that uneven, every move the humans made was because the Cell kids allowed them to. I know he took two hits, when he was standing up, he had only taken one hit, while Krillin had taken two. Edited by FutureProtagonist, Sep 21 2015, 12:18 AM.
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| Thiln | Sep 21 2015, 12:17 AM Post #101 |
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They could have easily stopped them, but at that moment they were just interested in toying with them. For whatever reason Tien happened to be standing somewhat longer compared to the other humans. The logic is similar to the kind used in justifying Piccolo being comparable to Vegeta and Trunks (which is another kettle of fish for another topic).
Tien took two hits to the head while standing, during which time Krillin was kicked to the ground and then had his back paralysed by Cell Jr's knee. Edited by Thiln, Sep 21 2015, 12:24 AM.
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| FutureProtagonist | Sep 21 2015, 12:24 AM Post #102 |
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Quwrof Wrlccywrlir
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No he didn't. Krillin took four hits before being knocked out, Ten took two. Edited by FutureProtagonist, Sep 21 2015, 12:25 AM.
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| Thiln | Sep 21 2015, 12:32 AM Post #103 |
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Two of those hits Krillin suffered involved being forced onto the ground and immobilised. The third involved being playfully kicked in the stomach, then the next time we see Krillin he's being thrown against an outcrop. Now this may just be me, but I think having someone kick you in the head twice would induce unconsciousness more quickly than being immobilised on the ground and kneed in the stomach region. |
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| FutureProtagonist | Sep 21 2015, 12:53 AM Post #104 |
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Quwrof Wrlccywrlir
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Both of Ten's hits were playful. Every hit (against the humans) was playful. Yamcha was knocked unconscious by having his arm broken. Makes no difference where they're hit. And hey, it's pretty clear that the Cell kids were more worried about Krillin retaliating than Ten, given their priority for immobilizing the former. Krillin was not felled in one blow, he was knocked to the ground, but he was still conscious and about to get back up, which the Cell Junior responded to by immobilizing him. You'll also notice that he was hit directly into the ground, and the hit seemed to have landed somewhere around his legs, as opposed to Ten, who was hit upward. The attack knocked him off his feet too. Yamcha also endured a hit without falling down. There is no fair comparison to be found here. Tenshinhan threw a punch (maybe), but he had only been hit once at that point. No point of comparison for Krillin, as he was immediately hit again before being allowed to recover. Every single human could have been killed instantly by the Cell juniors, and it is impossible for any of them to retaliate without their opponents allowing it. If Ten's Cell Junior wanted him down, he'd have gone down. Everything that occurred happened on their terms. Edited by FutureProtagonist, Sep 21 2015, 12:55 AM.
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| Thiln | Sep 21 2015, 02:39 AM Post #105 |
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Are we really equating a broken arm to head trauma? The former is incurred upon an extremity of the body. The victim will be in agonising pain immediately after the limb has been broken, but it's usually treatable and not too severe. A fractured skull can have a myriad of consequences including damage to brain tissue (including one's ability to think properly), swelling of the brain, loss of limb function, and even spinal injury. Playing around or not, we shouldn't be trying to establish some equivalency between an arm being broken vs having your head bludgeoned by two kicks. The Cell Jr literally was mocking Krillin with a big smile on his face before kicking him to the ground. Krillin was unable to recover in time so the Cell Jr made certain that his victim could be tortured at his leisure. It's not so much an indication that Krillin's opponent had singled him out for defeating quickly (were that true then Goku should have been down and out just as quickly), as it is Krillin not being able to get his bearings straight. Being defeated in one blow seems to be a curse for him throughout DBZ. Spoiler: click to toggle The manga doesn't show Krillin attempting to get back up. Cell Jr immediately follows his initial kick with a knee to the back the moment Krillin lands in the dirt. Krillin's exact posture was shifted downward with his upper body and arm veered at what looks like a 35 degree angle in the second top panel. It doesn't mean he couldn't have recovered in midair, though. He and the others were on top of a fairly big cliff when the fighting began. It would have taken a few seconds for him to descend where Gohan and Cell are. Kicking Krillin in the legs wouldn't have propelled him in the manner which it did. Not only is there less area in which to hit (making it less practical to hit), but the force behind Cell Jr's attack would have only caused it to fold/retract and force Krillin to his knees. What Cell Jr likely hit was the most advantageous spot for propelling on Krillin's body which is his centre of mass. Tien was kicked in the head, not punched or hit in any lower extremity of the body. Have you ever been kicked in the head? It's enough to disorientate someone and make them lose their centre of balance. I refer to my above statement explaining several different consequences that can come as a result of head trauma. It's difficult to believe that Cell Jr would not have exploited such a moment of weakness unless he was unable to because his adversary recovered quickly enough. You're right about the humans being easily killable at any moment, but given the objectives of the Cell Jrs at the time and the contextual imagery of the scene when Tien was retaliating during Cell's commenting to Gohan, it speaks to him performing relatively better than the other humans who were left at the mercy of the Cell Jrs after just one hit. |
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