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- Krillin or Tien?
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| Krillin or Tien? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 17 2015, 09:10 AM (5,523 Views) | |
| Kblo247 | Sep 20 2015, 06:22 AM Post #76 |
 
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Piccolo impressed Nail, yes. Piccolo also was at a wtf is going on point in his head when he touched down and 4 cats were all bigger powers than him. Gohan, Krillin, Vegeta, and Frieza were all classed as big powers to him. We know that they went from 1500 - 2000 area to 13-14k at Guldo. That basically meant Gohan shot up ASAP from the power up, whereas Krillin got a power jump from the time he first went back and got followed by Vegeta to the Ginyu force level, so you can reasonably see his power up went 1500 to 8000 to 13000 to 75000 to a 6 figure fighter since Vegeta notes both Gohan and Krillin are constantly getting stronger. As for Gohan losing strength, yes he did, but part of the problem with getting a handle on what he can do is that he was driven by his anger vs cell. Vegeta calls him trash, Goku agrees, but both more or less add a BUT IF HE GETS MAD exemption. Gohan got weaker and he got sloppier, the sloppiness especially was shown because he couldn't fight in his grown up body at all vs Dabura (thus needing a senzu bean). But most of all Gohan couldn't tap into his power anymore the same way because he couldn't find that anger within and use it like he did vs cell. It continuing into the movies post Buu has become a running joke. That said there's nothing concrete that says Krillin stopped the whole 7 years after the cell game from training or fighting. It's said he's settled down, grew his hair out, and has a family. That can be seven years or it could simply be 3-4 years he's retired. Tien trains the same way with the same person he's trained with since he's introduced, I'm not saying he didn't get stronger, but that doesn't mean he ever caught up. Heck Krillin will always have Gurus power up, a martial arts master he can go to for advice in Roshi , and a more capable sparring partner with ssj level power and infinite stamina. Add all that up with him being a guy who is perceptive and sees things like powers being hidden or Vegeta following Goku at the Ginyus and it's not hard to say he will find a way to stay ahead. By the way in present day it's said Tien farms, and that he basically spends his time hanging out with Chaiotzu, Yamcha, Puar, and Oolong. Krillin spends his time as a police officer. Its reasonable to say they both always stay in shape. That doesn't mean they train for anything more than to maintain their power though Edited by Kblo247, Sep 20 2015, 06:26 AM.
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| + Pyrus | Sep 20 2015, 07:20 AM Post #77 |
 
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"Character X trained for Y amount of time so he MUST have increased by Z amount, it doesn't make sense otherwise." "Piccolo got at least 10x stronger in 6 days, so it makes sense the humans got way better gains since they stayed longer." What? Why? Since when? (Not picking on you, Thiln. It's the train of thought.) |
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| Thiln | Sep 20 2015, 08:26 AM Post #78 |
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What we understand concerning Krillin's gradual increase in power from the beginning of the fight with Frieza in his first form to his untimely death against the tyrant at 50% of his maximum is that with each and every form he never felt assured enough in trying to challenge him except when Vegeta suggested that he and Gohan have a chance against the 530,000 form. The only clear cut estimate for his power level is 75,000, which was estimated at the end of the arc, iirc. It should be noted that Vegeta was making special consideration of Gohan's power during said quote of their ever increasing power. Krillin was most certainly going to be acting as the supplementary third member. Moreover, we have Gohan with a projected estimate of over 200,000 after receiving how many zenkais from previous battles? Two? One from Recoome and another from 2nd form Frieza - that would have substantially raised his level beyond Krillin's, possibly several magnitudes higher when considering how out of hand the power increases from zenkais were becoming at that late stage.
The bolded part is what I'm most interested in. Regardless of whether or not his ability to tap into his dormant power or skills were marred by lack of training, the point is that his general power weakened during the early Buu arc. This is a strong indication that the potential unlock from Guru doesn't act as a natural preventive to loss of power or that it's indefinitely increasing the user's strength.
It says in the Daizenshuu that Krillin and #18 married in Age 770, which happens to be three years following the Cell Games. Now I doubt they chose to tie the knot immediately the next time they saw each other. There probably was a courtship period preceding the actual marriage, which already sets him on a civilian path more akin to Yamcha's lifestyle that's set apart from Tien's who has no interest in romantic relationships and can therefore dedicate more of his time to training. Marron was born the following year, presumably after a normal 9 month pregnancy. This may just be my personal opinion, but I would rather have a sparring partner who can at least function on the level of a Z-Warrior with a power level in the thousands that's helping me train in the harsh extremities of the planet compared to Roshi on his tiny domesticated island who really can't offer much benefit except for advice and unique techniques that we never saw Krillin use. Regarding a possible regimen with #18 - the only window of time where this seems feasible would be the training period that took place before the 25th tournament. How many fans came to the conclusion that Krillin trains with #18 stems from a filler scene in the anime. The only actual panel from the manga showing his training is this one... Spoiler: click to toggle He's training on a nondescript tropical island, probably one similar to the kind he and Goku first started off on many years ago.
Under any other circumstances I would agree with you, but there's also Gohan who chose to become a crime fighter before training or the 25th tournament crossed his mind. No matter how much they deteriorate, characters of Krillin's calibre are probably going to remain vastly superior compared to the common person. Roshi was considered a legend back in the original DB and he had been in retirement for what must have been decades if his last students before Goku and Krillin were the Ox King and Grandpa Gohan. Gohan's actions establish a precedent whereby you can still stop general wrongdoing in DB society while not actively training or working out in your spare time. Tien has always been one to push himself to succeed, even when realising how severely outmatched he is. I don't believe he would limit his training to just maintaining what he already has. Moreover, there's this panel from the Buu arc depicting him with a blue undershirt that's commonly associated with weighted clothing and rigourous training. Spoiler: click to toggle Unless Tien just happened to be scouting for arable land in what looks like dry barren terrain while having on a top that's generally seen with those who are in intensive training then I'm inclined to say that he may have done more than just keep in shape. ~~~~~~~~~~~ Pyrus
You're right, Pyrus. There's really not much to establish just how much the humans improved after training. Much of what's used is conjectural assumption based off earlier gains that were incredible at the time. The humans made substantial gains with Roshi, Karin, and Kami, so why wouldn't the same outcome happen with King Kai? That's the logic of those of us who advocate strong gains for the humans. Whenever they followed in Goku's footsteps, it often lead to results that were either equal to or greater than his. Granted, they're usually stronger than he is when starting out. |
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| Graffiti | Sep 20 2015, 09:06 AM Post #79 |
MGD.
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I'd have to go for Tien. He's been training constantly up until the end of GT, where as Krillin settled down with his family (Android 18 & Maron). |
DBZF Original, 2005-present  "When backed into a corner, you are the most fearsome fighter!" Piccolo [Portifolio | Str8 Outta Namek (DBZF's only Hip Hop Club) | MyAnimeList] | |
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| + Clearin | Sep 20 2015, 01:35 PM Post #80 |
 
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Actually if you're counting GT then Krillin trained with #18. |
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| Kblo247 | Sep 20 2015, 07:44 PM Post #81 |
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Krillin at 75k isn't help if Vegeta states Goku at 90k wouldn't be. Gohan and Krillin both wre mentioned as getting stronger. They both were 6 figure fighters. Gohan was singled out later because well he can go hulk but doesn't know it. |
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| Thiln | Sep 20 2015, 08:34 PM Post #82 |
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I'm looking over the chapter where Vegeta makes reference to Goku helping him fight Frieza. He only mentions that Goku's strength will be useful and that he needs to recover. Vegeta certainly couldn't have anticipated just how much of a zenkai he would receive due to the injuries. They were a wild card that I can't find any specific reference to in that chapter. Even at just 75,000, that's still roughly 14% of 1st form Frieza's maximum power. It's better than nothing, and considering how Vegeta was a first hand witness to Krillin's ingenuity and craftiness when he landed several blows on Nappa and almost killed him with the Kienzan, he must have arrived at the conclusion that Krillin is a fighter worth having on his team. It's not like he was going to be handling the brunt of the effort. My guess is that his role would play similarly to the one seen during the Saiyan arc where the enemy is preoccupied with the main combatant and he manages to inflict some surprise damage. |
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| + Pyrus | Sep 20 2015, 08:37 PM Post #83 |
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The logic is, well, logical, but the problem arises when comparing conjecture to solid implications and statements. Ten, Yamcha, and Chaozu could've gotten 30x stronger on Kaio's but we don't know since their strength is completely irrelevant and largely unmentioned after their deaths at the hands of Nappa. On the other hand, we have it by good word that Krillin's boost on Namek was very substantial, enough for Vegeta to consider him helpful in the fight with Freeza, when he previously told a 60k Goku he "absolutely can't win" against the same opponent, twice. We're also shown previous fights in the same saga with a team against one where the team got demolished by the stronger fighter (Vegeta/Gohan/Krillin vs. Reacoom, Jhees/Burta vs. 60k Goku). Vegeta specified his battle power alongside Gohan's, so we know he wasn't leaning toward Krillin's techniques (which Vegeta possesses the most deadly of, the Kienzan). If Krillin was to be a team player against even 530k Freeza, he'd need to be quite strong, and 75k doesn't quite cut it from what we've seen of previous fights, not when Freeza is the opponent. Tenshinhan also mentioned being unable to surpass Goku doing the same training on Kaio's, for what it's worth. Chapter: 261 (DBZ 67), P8.4 Context: talking about Kaio’s training Tenshinhan: “I can’t surpass Goku doing the same training…I’ll have to just quickly grasp the point of the training and polish my techniques in my unique way…I just won’t accept the sort of pathetic showing as last time…” Do we know for sure that the humans gained more from the training Goku previously did? I can't remember. 
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| Thiln | Sep 20 2015, 09:12 PM Post #84 |
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Well Pyrus, you already know about the evidence pieces that I introduced in the other topic that seem to suggest Tien making substantial gains. I doubt Toriyama would so easily forget about Piccolo and the others being too weak to follow Frieza's Death Beam when writing for Gero's Eye Lasers just a few dozen chapters later. Forgetful as he may be, this is probably when he was most invested in the DBZ series (note that I'm distinguishing it from the original DB). Vegeta was at a notable disadvantage against Recoome. Most of the damage that was inflicted on him was superficial, and Vegeta wasn't being taken seriously at all. The contrary seems to the be case with Frieza in that he was grappling with the tyrant and they both appeared to be under enormous pressure in trying to overcome the other. If I had to guess, Vegeta was probably not too far off from equaling this form. I might put him around 480,000-500,000 since anything lower would put him below 90% of his opponent and generally that seems unfeasible for two fighters who appeared to be almost deadlocked with each other. Couple Vegeta with a kid who is notorious for insane upsurges of power while enraged and a genuinely crafty guy like Krillin who knows when to exploit a situation and I can understand why Vegeta believed that he had a good chance at victory. Regarding Tien's quote of not being able to surpass Goku - I believe this was in reference to following in his direct footsteps. Goku was constantly pulling ahead of the others despite how much they do to master the same training in order to close the gap. Even after training on King Kai's, Piccolo wasn't able to surpass Goku. It wasn't until he took an unorthodox approach in fusing with Kami that he finally managed to accomplish that goal, albeit it was only temporary. Tien's logic was probably along that same line in trying to differ from the set path Goku was on so he could pull ahead for a change. Edited by Thiln, Sep 20 2015, 09:14 PM.
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| Vegeta Blue | Sep 20 2015, 10:30 PM Post #85 |
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Tien imo |
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| + Emmeth | Sep 20 2015, 10:43 PM Post #86 |
I ♥ Yoeri
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Opinion doesn't matter here, because AT stated in an interview that he thought Krillin was stronger. AT's opinion > Your opinion. |
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| ILikeMySocks | Sep 20 2015, 10:51 PM Post #87 |
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I initially thought Tien, but after reading through 6 pages of this I actually changed my mind. It's rare that happens, but the only defense for Tien is his training. Krillin just has more things to back up AT's opinion on him being the strongest (One such thing being that it is AT's opinion). |
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| Thiln | Sep 20 2015, 11:13 PM Post #88 |
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Training, as well as a few additional feats in the Android/Cell arc that do not involve the Kikoho, one of which Krillin was exposed to the same challenge as Tien and was unable to replicate it. We know that factually speaking Krillin is the strongest. The argument has to do with whether his supremacy can stand on its own within the confines of the manga without Toriyama's word. |
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| + Clearin | Sep 20 2015, 11:14 PM Post #89 |
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What challenge was that? |
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| FutureProtagonist | Sep 20 2015, 11:14 PM Post #90 |
Quwrof Wrlccywrlir
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What would this be? |
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