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Super Episode 8 Discussion
Topic Started: Aug 30 2015, 12:46 AM (13,325 Views)
Xfing
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Kyo
Aug 31 2015, 04:36 PM
Xfing
Aug 31 2015, 04:26 PM
The episode screws with canon so badly. It made me very sad.

As much as 1/10th of Beerus' full power is necessary to take down an enraged SSj2 Vegeta? SSj2 Vegeta has to be considerably stronger than SSj3 Goku in that case, which is fine I guess. But that makes him even stronger than Ultimate Gohan, which is not ok.

It would mean we have to seriously re-evaluate what we think about Ultimate Gohan's power. And it's not cool at all.
If you can just accept that AT has forgotten power relations, then you don't need to reevaluate anything.
Yeah, but think about all those chumps who think SSj3 Goku ~ Ultimate Gohan. This episode actually gives them ammo, as nothing here made those two stand apart from each other.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

If you think of it as Beerus taking out Gohan first because he was the biggest threat, it makes things a little easier to accept. Gohan got caught completely off-guard. I hate it, and the fact that it happened is a huge slap in the face to any Gohan fan, but all it means is that SSJ2 Vegeta (Rage) > Ultimate Gohan. Goku doesn't have to be anywhere near that realm of power.
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Xfing
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Well going by official numbers SSj3 is 4x stronger than SSj2. So Vegeta had to become more than 8x as strong as he usually is as a SSj2 to be of any threat to Beerus - the bigger this number, the more ludicrous things get IMO.

Why? Because this completely craps on Gohan's own rage boosts, for which he had always been known. Just how much stronger is SSj2 Gohan during the Cell Games from a regular, typical SSj2? I guess a lot.

Not to mention that Vegeta would need to become at least like 10x stronger than Goku to have a showing clearly better than Gohan's.
Edited by Xfing, Aug 31 2015, 04:48 PM.
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Mihawk
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Aug 31 2015, 04:39 PM
I honestly think that is an absurd argument. If this is supposed to a continuation of Toriyama's story, we sorta have to reevaluate our positions.


Uhh ok. Makes more sense to me to just accept that the guy can forgot what he wrote in the original story. Like if (hypothetical example)

Cell arc Gohan stated age: 14
Time elapsed to Boo arc: 1 Year
Boo arc Gohan stated age: 19

I'm just gonna go with AT forgot the story and I'm going with what makes more intellectual sense, rather than a contrived hyperspace portal jump; because, uhh, you know, one of the two is absurd.

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+ Clearin
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To be honest, I don't think Goku was even thinking of Vegetto when he said merge with Vegeta. Goku only wanted to fight Beerus, not kill him. He's not gonna permanently lose his body for a single good fight.
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Kyo
Aug 31 2015, 04:49 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Aug 31 2015, 04:39 PM
I honestly think that is an absurd argument. If this is supposed to a continuation of Toriyama's story, we sorta have to reevaluate our positions.


Uhh ok. Makes more sense to me to just accept that the guy can forgot what he wrote in the original story. Like if (hypothetical example)

Cell arc Gohan stated age: 14
Time elapsed to Boo arc: 1 Year
Boo arc Gohan stated age: 19

I'm just gonna go with AT forgot the story and I'm going with what makes more intellectual sense, rather than a contrived hyperspace portal jump; because, uhh, you know, one of the two is absurd.
I'm sure George Lucas forgot plenty of things about the original trilogy when he made the prequels. They're still canon, retcons and all. As for your example, there's never been such a huge discrepancy, so I don't see why people are so quick to disregard anything Toriyama has done in recent years.
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Mihawk
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I'm OK with accepting things as retcons (actually not but that's a different story for a canon argument thread), but not OK with coming up with ridiculous contrived explanations and pretending they've always been right.

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Kyo
Aug 31 2015, 04:57 PM
I'm OK with accepting things as retcons (actually not but that's a different story for a canon argument thread), but not OK with coming up with ridiculous contrived explanations and pretending they've always been right.
"pretending a new explanation was the way it always was" is the very definition of a retcon:
Quote:
 
a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.
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Mihawk
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Hmm not necessarily. "imposes a different interpretation" means opening another pathway to look at the past, not to accept that it's always been that way. From this page: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Retcon, there seems to be quite a few different versions of retcons. I'm also open to the idea of reinterpretation for the sake of retcon. As long as it's clear that we're talking retcon and not "it's always been this way".

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Xfing
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Well, I think the easiest thing we can do is just assume that Vegeta has gotten so much more powerful than usual SSj2 that he starts straddling near Vegetto level (like say, 50%). Make him like 30x more powerful than usual. It is an asspull, but things like that have happened in DBZ multiple times and we've accepted them.

10% Beerus ~ Super Vegetto >>> SSj2 Vegeta >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ultimate Gohan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSj3 Goku and dassit.

And we're all good.
Edited by Xfing, Aug 31 2015, 05:17 PM.
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sekzee
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Clearin
Aug 31 2015, 04:52 PM
To be honest, I don't think Goku was even thinking of Vegetto when he said merge with Vegeta. Goku only wanted to fight Beerus, not kill him. He's not gonna permanently lose his body for a single good fight.
Except Earth is in danger.

He may not want to kill him, but he sure wants to defeat him.
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魔王子

Here's the official line regarding Beerus using 10% of his strength:
Herms
 
Context: After Beerus defeats angry Vegeta
Beerus: "It's been a long time since I've used 10% or so of my full strength. Well, this was more fun than with that Saiyan over at North Kaio's place."

Also, here's Beerus claiming he can destroy the Solar System:
Herms
 
Context: Goku asks Beerus for one final chance to discover the truth about Super Saiyan God
Beerus: "If this next thing doesn't work out, then I'll destroy the Earth...no, the entire solar system."
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My Dear Melancholy,

Is that impressive? Cell could do the same right? Solar Kamehameha I believe it's called.
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QueenTD
Sep 2 2015, 01:51 AM
Is that impressive? Cell could do the same right? Solar Kamehameha I believe it's called.
Depends on whether you believe Cell was bluffing I guess.
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Mihawk
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Cell was at max power, I think it's likely Beerus is more casual. Also, purely from a physics perspective, him being able to destroy the sun makes the most sense.

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