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Multipliers and...stuff.
Topic Started: Aug 8 2015, 05:15 AM (3,387 Views)
Sjk8
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史上最強の孫悟空

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Aug 8 2015, 04:53 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 04:43 PM
SSGSS is not even 2x base Goku/Vegeta's forms in FnF.
Unlikely considering Goku says this:
RoF Synopsis
 
This just annoys Freeza even further. Goku powers up, whipping up a cloud of dust, and after a moment, Freeza expresses his confusion; isn’t Goku going to become a Super Saiyan? Goku says there’s no need to go that far.


And what does this prove?
Goku absorbed SSG powers in his base form during BoG, indeed, despite begin a little weaker than his SSG state, he was still capable to fight decently against 70% Beerus.
Then, in FnF, base Goku and base Vegeta are training with Whis: this means that base Goku (FnF) > base Goku (post God, BoG) < SSG Goku (BoG).
Now, we could assume that SSGSS Goku is 50x base Goku as normal Ssj multiplier used to be if Whis, in FnF, didn't flat out state that SSGSS Goku is still weaker than 100% Beerus.
However, we know that trained SSGSS Goku in FnF is stronger than BoG SSG Goku: in fact, him and Vegeta together could probably be capable to take 100% Beerus.

Whis > 100% Beerus >= SSGSS Goku + SSGSS Vegeta > 100% Golden Freeza > SSGSS Goku/Vegeta > 70% Beerus > BoG SSG Goku > base Goku/Vegeta (FnF) > base Goku (BoG, post God)

And since we know that it is:

100% Beerus: 10
70% Beerus: 7
SSG Goku: 6

and that base Goku post God in BoG is not that much weaker than his SSG transformation, it's easy to understand that the SSGSS multiplier over the FnF base form can't nowhere be more than 2X.
A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has even a chance to get its pants on
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Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 05:14 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Aug 8 2015, 04:53 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 04:43 PM
SSGSS is not even 2x base Goku/Vegeta's forms in FnF.
Unlikely considering Goku says this:
RoF Synopsis
 
This just annoys Freeza even further. Goku powers up, whipping up a cloud of dust, and after a moment, Freeza expresses his confusion; isn’t Goku going to become a Super Saiyan? Goku says there’s no need to go that far.


And what does this prove?
Goku absorbed SSG powers in his base form during BoG, indeed, despite begin a little weaker than his SSG state, he was still capable to fight decently against 70% Beerus.
Then, in FnF, base Goku and base Vegeta are training with Whis: this means that base Goku (FnF) > base Goku (post God, BoG) < SSG Goku (BoG).
Now, we could assume that SSGSS Goku is 50x base Goku as normal Ssj multiplier used to be if Whis, in FnF, didn't flat out state that SSGSS Goku is still weaker than 100% Beerus.
However, we know that trained SSGSS Goku in FnF is stronger than BoG SSG Goku: in fact, him and Vegeta together could probably be capable to take 100% Beerus.

Whis > 100% Beerus >= SSGSS Goku + SSGSS Vegeta > 100% Golden Freeza > SSGSS Goku/Vegeta > 70% Beerus > BoG SSG Goku > base Goku/Vegeta (FnF) > base Goku (BoG, post God)

And since we know that it is:

100% Beerus: 10
70% Beerus: 7
SSG Goku: 6

and that base Goku post God in BoG is not that much weaker than his SSG transformation, it's easy to understand that the SSGSS multiplier over the FnF base form can't nowhere be more than 2X.
The implication is that there's a significant difference between his base and Super Saiyan self. If that's not enough, there's Beerus merely sneezing an attack powerful enough to defeat base Goku and Vegeta. There's also a very weakened Golden Freeza claiming Vegeta couldn't beat him as he was. There are myriad of implications within the movie that base Goku is much weaker than SSGSS Goku. As for why base Goku could keep up with Beerus in Battle of Gods, I merely assume his power was slowly decreasing and it had to be maintained by his Super Saiyan form.
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In BoG, it got to the point where SSJ Goku (Post-God) threw a full power Kamehameha at Beerus and it did absolutely nothing.
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Aug 8 2015, 05:11 PM
...Did I miss anything?
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Sjk8
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史上最強の孫悟空

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Aug 8 2015, 05:19 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 05:14 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Aug 8 2015, 04:53 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 04:43 PM
SSGSS is not even 2x base Goku/Vegeta's forms in FnF.
Unlikely considering Goku says this:
RoF Synopsis
 
This just annoys Freeza even further. Goku powers up, whipping up a cloud of dust, and after a moment, Freeza expresses his confusion; isn’t Goku going to become a Super Saiyan? Goku says there’s no need to go that far.


And what does this prove?
Goku absorbed SSG powers in his base form during BoG, indeed, despite begin a little weaker than his SSG state, he was still capable to fight decently against 70% Beerus.
Then, in FnF, base Goku and base Vegeta are training with Whis: this means that base Goku (FnF) > base Goku (post God, BoG) < SSG Goku (BoG).
Now, we could assume that SSGSS Goku is 50x base Goku as normal Ssj multiplier used to be if Whis, in FnF, didn't flat out state that SSGSS Goku is still weaker than 100% Beerus.
However, we know that trained SSGSS Goku in FnF is stronger than BoG SSG Goku: in fact, him and Vegeta together could probably be capable to take 100% Beerus.

Whis > 100% Beerus >= SSGSS Goku + SSGSS Vegeta > 100% Golden Freeza > SSGSS Goku/Vegeta > 70% Beerus > BoG SSG Goku > base Goku/Vegeta (FnF) > base Goku (BoG, post God)

And since we know that it is:

100% Beerus: 10
70% Beerus: 7
SSG Goku: 6

and that base Goku post God in BoG is not that much weaker than his SSG transformation, it's easy to understand that the SSGSS multiplier over the FnF base form can't nowhere be more than 2X.
The implication is that there's a significant difference between his base and Super Saiyan self. If that's not enough, there's Beerus merely sneezing an attack powerful enough to defeat base Goku and Vegeta. There's also a very weakened Golden Freeza claiming Vegeta couldn't beat him as he was. There are myriad of implications within the movie that base Goku is much weaker than SSGSS Goku. As for why base Goku could keep up with Beerus in Battle of Gods, I merely assume his power was slowly decreasing and it had to be maintained by his Super Saiyan form.


Goku absorbed most of the power of SSG in his base form during BoG, yet nobody in FnF tells us that base Goku (FnF) got weaker than his post God base form in BoG.
Golden Freeza at his full power was stronger than SSGSS Goku/Vegeta, so it makes perfectly sense, even with a 2X multiplier at most, that a drained Golden Freeza was still superior to base Goku/Vegeta.

Nagito Komaeda
Aug 8 2015, 05:21 PM
In BoG, it got to the point where SSJ Goku (Post-God) threw a full power Kamehameha at Beerus and it did absolutely nothing.


Ssj Goku post-God = base Goku post-God in BoG, there's no hinted difference between them and the fact that his Kamehameha did nothing to Beerus fits perfectly with a bad-mood Beerus capable to kill them, in base, with that blast in FnF.

- We got specifically stated that Goku absorbed most of the godly Ki in his base form during BoG
- In FnF, we see base Goku training with even Whis, and nothing states that base Goku (FnF) is < base Goku (post-God BoG). On the contrary, everything hints at base Goku getting even stronger.
- SSGSS is stated by Whis to still be < 100% Beerus.

You can't escape from these constraints, they automatically determine the power-chain and the gaps, and Golden Freeza still perfectly fits in it.

A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has even a chance to get its pants on
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Never argue with ignorant people, because they drag you down to their level and then they beat you with experience
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Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 05:59 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Aug 8 2015, 05:19 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 05:14 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Aug 8 2015, 04:53 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 04:43 PM
SSGSS is not even 2x base Goku/Vegeta's forms in FnF.
Unlikely considering Goku says this:
RoF Synopsis
 
This just annoys Freeza even further. Goku powers up, whipping up a cloud of dust, and after a moment, Freeza expresses his confusion; isn’t Goku going to become a Super Saiyan? Goku says there’s no need to go that far.


And what does this prove?
Goku absorbed SSG powers in his base form during BoG, indeed, despite begin a little weaker than his SSG state, he was still capable to fight decently against 70% Beerus.
Then, in FnF, base Goku and base Vegeta are training with Whis: this means that base Goku (FnF) > base Goku (post God, BoG) < SSG Goku (BoG).
Now, we could assume that SSGSS Goku is 50x base Goku as normal Ssj multiplier used to be if Whis, in FnF, didn't flat out state that SSGSS Goku is still weaker than 100% Beerus.
However, we know that trained SSGSS Goku in FnF is stronger than BoG SSG Goku: in fact, him and Vegeta together could probably be capable to take 100% Beerus.

Whis > 100% Beerus >= SSGSS Goku + SSGSS Vegeta > 100% Golden Freeza > SSGSS Goku/Vegeta > 70% Beerus > BoG SSG Goku > base Goku/Vegeta (FnF) > base Goku (BoG, post God)

And since we know that it is:

100% Beerus: 10
70% Beerus: 7
SSG Goku: 6

and that base Goku post God in BoG is not that much weaker than his SSG transformation, it's easy to understand that the SSGSS multiplier over the FnF base form can't nowhere be more than 2X.
The implication is that there's a significant difference between his base and Super Saiyan self. If that's not enough, there's Beerus merely sneezing an attack powerful enough to defeat base Goku and Vegeta. There's also a very weakened Golden Freeza claiming Vegeta couldn't beat him as he was. There are myriad of implications within the movie that base Goku is much weaker than SSGSS Goku. As for why base Goku could keep up with Beerus in Battle of Gods, I merely assume his power was slowly decreasing and it had to be maintained by his Super Saiyan form.


Goku absorbed most of the power of SSG in his base form during BoG, yet nobody in FnF tells us that base Goku (FnF) got weaker than his post God base form in BoG.
Golden Freeza at his full power was stronger than SSGSS Goku/Vegeta, so it makes perfectly sense, even with a 2X multiplier at most, that a drained Golden Freeza was still superior to base Goku/Vegeta.
He did, but I assume it was slowly decreasing and had to be maintained with Super Saiyan, and Resurrection F does point to his base form being a great deal weaker, with the evidence I already pointed out. Golden Freeza wasn't that much stronger than SSGSS Goku, and he eventually got to a point where he couldn't even budge an also fatigued Goku with a blow to the face.
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Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 05:59 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Aug 8 2015, 05:19 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 05:14 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Aug 8 2015, 04:53 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 04:43 PM
SSGSS is not even 2x base Goku/Vegeta's forms in FnF.
Unlikely considering Goku says this:
RoF Synopsis
 
This just annoys Freeza even further. Goku powers up, whipping up a cloud of dust, and after a moment, Freeza expresses his confusion; isn’t Goku going to become a Super Saiyan? Goku says there’s no need to go that far.


And what does this prove?
Goku absorbed SSG powers in his base form during BoG, indeed, despite begin a little weaker than his SSG state, he was still capable to fight decently against 70% Beerus.
Then, in FnF, base Goku and base Vegeta are training with Whis: this means that base Goku (FnF) > base Goku (post God, BoG) < SSG Goku (BoG).
Now, we could assume that SSGSS Goku is 50x base Goku as normal Ssj multiplier used to be if Whis, in FnF, didn't flat out state that SSGSS Goku is still weaker than 100% Beerus.
However, we know that trained SSGSS Goku in FnF is stronger than BoG SSG Goku: in fact, him and Vegeta together could probably be capable to take 100% Beerus.

Whis > 100% Beerus >= SSGSS Goku + SSGSS Vegeta > 100% Golden Freeza > SSGSS Goku/Vegeta > 70% Beerus > BoG SSG Goku > base Goku/Vegeta (FnF) > base Goku (BoG, post God)

And since we know that it is:

100% Beerus: 10
70% Beerus: 7
SSG Goku: 6

and that base Goku post God in BoG is not that much weaker than his SSG transformation, it's easy to understand that the SSGSS multiplier over the FnF base form can't nowhere be more than 2X.
The implication is that there's a significant difference between his base and Super Saiyan self. If that's not enough, there's Beerus merely sneezing an attack powerful enough to defeat base Goku and Vegeta. There's also a very weakened Golden Freeza claiming Vegeta couldn't beat him as he was. There are myriad of implications within the movie that base Goku is much weaker than SSGSS Goku. As for why base Goku could keep up with Beerus in Battle of Gods, I merely assume his power was slowly decreasing and it had to be maintained by his Super Saiyan form.


Goku absorbed most of the power of SSG in his base form during BoG, yet nobody in FnF tells us that base Goku (FnF) got weaker than his post God base form in BoG.
Golden Freeza at his full power was stronger than SSGSS Goku/Vegeta, so it makes perfectly sense, even with a 2X multiplier at most, that a drained Golden Freeza was still superior to base Goku/Vegeta.

Nagito Komaeda
Aug 8 2015, 05:21 PM
In BoG, it got to the point where SSJ Goku (Post-God) threw a full power Kamehameha at Beerus and it did absolutely nothing.


Ssj Goku post-God = base Goku post-God in BoG, there's no hinted difference between them and the fact that his Kamehameha did nothing to Beerus fits perfectly with a bad-mood Beerus capable to kill them, in base, with that blast in FnF.

- We got specifically stated that Goku absorbed most of the godly Ki in his base form during BoG
- In FnF, we see base Goku training with even Whis, and nothing states that base Goku (FnF) is < base Goku (post-God BoG). On the contrary, everything hints at base Goku getting even stronger.
- SSGSS is stated by Whis to still be < 100% Beerus.

You can't escape from these constraints, they automatically determine the power-chain and the gaps, and Golden Freeza still perfectly fits in it.

Why did he turn Super Saiyan, then? I think he transformed in order to keep his power as high as possible. It was slowly decreasing, so he had to push his body as hard as possible to try and keep as much of the ki as he could.

SSJG Goku > SSJ Goku (God Ki fading) > Base Goku (God Ki fading)

Can you give me the quote where it said most of the godkly ki? As far as I recall, it was only stated that Goku's body had adapted to the ki and, as a result, gotten a lot stronger.

I think we're talking about different things here.

I'm talking about Goku as soon as he dropped out of God form. The Ki didn't suddenly disappear, otherwise Goku would've noted a power drop. Instead, he's surprised himself when he realises that his God form has gone.
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Sjk8
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史上最強の孫悟空

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Aug 8 2015, 06:04 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 05:59 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Aug 8 2015, 05:19 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 05:14 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Aug 8 2015, 04:53 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 04:43 PM
SSGSS is not even 2x base Goku/Vegeta's forms in FnF.
Unlikely considering Goku says this:
RoF Synopsis
 
This just annoys Freeza even further. Goku powers up, whipping up a cloud of dust, and after a moment, Freeza expresses his confusion; isn’t Goku going to become a Super Saiyan? Goku says there’s no need to go that far.


And what does this prove?
Goku absorbed SSG powers in his base form during BoG, indeed, despite begin a little weaker than his SSG state, he was still capable to fight decently against 70% Beerus.
Then, in FnF, base Goku and base Vegeta are training with Whis: this means that base Goku (FnF) > base Goku (post God, BoG) < SSG Goku (BoG).
Now, we could assume that SSGSS Goku is 50x base Goku as normal Ssj multiplier used to be if Whis, in FnF, didn't flat out state that SSGSS Goku is still weaker than 100% Beerus.
However, we know that trained SSGSS Goku in FnF is stronger than BoG SSG Goku: in fact, him and Vegeta together could probably be capable to take 100% Beerus.

Whis > 100% Beerus >= SSGSS Goku + SSGSS Vegeta > 100% Golden Freeza > SSGSS Goku/Vegeta > 70% Beerus > BoG SSG Goku > base Goku/Vegeta (FnF) > base Goku (BoG, post God)

And since we know that it is:

100% Beerus: 10
70% Beerus: 7
SSG Goku: 6

and that base Goku post God in BoG is not that much weaker than his SSG transformation, it's easy to understand that the SSGSS multiplier over the FnF base form can't nowhere be more than 2X.
The implication is that there's a significant difference between his base and Super Saiyan self. If that's not enough, there's Beerus merely sneezing an attack powerful enough to defeat base Goku and Vegeta. There's also a very weakened Golden Freeza claiming Vegeta couldn't beat him as he was. There are myriad of implications within the movie that base Goku is much weaker than SSGSS Goku. As for why base Goku could keep up with Beerus in Battle of Gods, I merely assume his power was slowly decreasing and it had to be maintained by his Super Saiyan form.


Goku absorbed most of the power of SSG in his base form during BoG, yet nobody in FnF tells us that base Goku (FnF) got weaker than his post God base form in BoG.
Golden Freeza at his full power was stronger than SSGSS Goku/Vegeta, so it makes perfectly sense, even with a 2X multiplier at most, that a drained Golden Freeza was still superior to base Goku/Vegeta.
He did, but I assume it was slowly decreasing and had to be maintained with Super Saiyan, and Resurrection F does point to his base form being a great deal weaker, with the evidence I already pointed out. Golden Freeza wasn't that much stronger than SSGSS Goku, and he eventually got to a point where he couldn't even budge an also fatigued Goku with a blow to the face.


Golden Freeza wasn't that much stronger than SSGSS, otherwise he would be Beerus level; yet, he was stronger on a solid basis and the only reason he lost was because his stamina drained awfully quickly: the same Goku tells him (and thus us) that if he had worked on that aspect during his training (taking for example some more time in order to get used to the new form), he would have won.
I've read what you wrote, but nothing points out that base Goku (FnF) is weaker than post-God BoG Goku.

- Whis = 15
- Beerus (100%) = 10
- Golden Freeza (100%) = 9.25-9.5 (albeit for a very short amount of time)
- SSGSS Goku/Vegeta = 9 (working together, they could have put down Beerus, as stated by Whis)
- Beerus (70%) = 7
- SSG Goku (100%) = 6
- SSG Goku (80%) = 4.8
- Base/Ssj Goku (BoG, post God) <= 4.8 but > 3 (absorbed most (most means > 50%) of the godly Ki, his Kamehameha did nothing to 70% Beerus)
- Base Goku/Vegeta (FnF) >= 4.8 (after having absorbed most of the godly Ki they are now training with Whis, an uncontrolled blast from an annoyed Beerus could still kill them while off-guard)
- Drained Golden Freeza 4.8 < x < 9 (he can be put anywhere you want in this gap, since he is stronger than base FnF saiyans but weaker than their SSGSS forms)
- 4th form Freeza (FnF) < 4.8 (weaker than base FnF saiyans)

Everything fits in and the SSGSS isn't even a 2x boost.


Edited by Sjk8, Aug 8 2015, 06:48 PM.
A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has even a chance to get its pants on
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Sjk8
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史上最強の孫悟空

Nagito Komaeda
Aug 8 2015, 06:22 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 05:59 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Aug 8 2015, 05:19 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 05:14 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Aug 8 2015, 04:53 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 04:43 PM
SSGSS is not even 2x base Goku/Vegeta's forms in FnF.
Unlikely considering Goku says this:
RoF Synopsis
 
This just annoys Freeza even further. Goku powers up, whipping up a cloud of dust, and after a moment, Freeza expresses his confusion; isn’t Goku going to become a Super Saiyan? Goku says there’s no need to go that far.


And what does this prove?
Goku absorbed SSG powers in his base form during BoG, indeed, despite begin a little weaker than his SSG state, he was still capable to fight decently against 70% Beerus.
Then, in FnF, base Goku and base Vegeta are training with Whis: this means that base Goku (FnF) > base Goku (post God, BoG) < SSG Goku (BoG).
Now, we could assume that SSGSS Goku is 50x base Goku as normal Ssj multiplier used to be if Whis, in FnF, didn't flat out state that SSGSS Goku is still weaker than 100% Beerus.
However, we know that trained SSGSS Goku in FnF is stronger than BoG SSG Goku: in fact, him and Vegeta together could probably be capable to take 100% Beerus.

Whis > 100% Beerus >= SSGSS Goku + SSGSS Vegeta > 100% Golden Freeza > SSGSS Goku/Vegeta > 70% Beerus > BoG SSG Goku > base Goku/Vegeta (FnF) > base Goku (BoG, post God)

And since we know that it is:

100% Beerus: 10
70% Beerus: 7
SSG Goku: 6

and that base Goku post God in BoG is not that much weaker than his SSG transformation, it's easy to understand that the SSGSS multiplier over the FnF base form can't nowhere be more than 2X.
The implication is that there's a significant difference between his base and Super Saiyan self. If that's not enough, there's Beerus merely sneezing an attack powerful enough to defeat base Goku and Vegeta. There's also a very weakened Golden Freeza claiming Vegeta couldn't beat him as he was. There are myriad of implications within the movie that base Goku is much weaker than SSGSS Goku. As for why base Goku could keep up with Beerus in Battle of Gods, I merely assume his power was slowly decreasing and it had to be maintained by his Super Saiyan form.


Goku absorbed most of the power of SSG in his base form during BoG, yet nobody in FnF tells us that base Goku (FnF) got weaker than his post God base form in BoG.
Golden Freeza at his full power was stronger than SSGSS Goku/Vegeta, so it makes perfectly sense, even with a 2X multiplier at most, that a drained Golden Freeza was still superior to base Goku/Vegeta.

Nagito Komaeda
Aug 8 2015, 05:21 PM
In BoG, it got to the point where SSJ Goku (Post-God) threw a full power Kamehameha at Beerus and it did absolutely nothing.


Ssj Goku post-God = base Goku post-God in BoG, there's no hinted difference between them and the fact that his Kamehameha did nothing to Beerus fits perfectly with a bad-mood Beerus capable to kill them, in base, with that blast in FnF.

- We got specifically stated that Goku absorbed most of the godly Ki in his base form during BoG
- In FnF, we see base Goku training with even Whis, and nothing states that base Goku (FnF) is < base Goku (post-God BoG). On the contrary, everything hints at base Goku getting even stronger.
- SSGSS is stated by Whis to still be < 100% Beerus.

You can't escape from these constraints, they automatically determine the power-chain and the gaps, and Golden Freeza still perfectly fits in it.

Can you give me the quote where it said most of the godkly ki? As far as I recall, it was only stated that Goku's body had adapted to the ki and, as a result, gotten a lot stronger.


Here it is:

"As Goku struggles against Beerus' energy ball, Beerus tells Goku that Super Saiyan God's time limit ran out a long time ago. Goku apparently did not notice, because as he fought he absorbed that realm of power into his body. Due to this, even after returning to normal, Goku still did not power down very much. Beerus says that Goku is really something, a rare genius"

Official Kanzenshuu source here

A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has even a chance to get its pants on
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Aug 8 2015, 05:39 PM
Kaboom
Aug 8 2015, 05:11 PM
...Did I miss anything?
Legendary Super Saiyan
Oh, right. Went back and added it.
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Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 06:43 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Aug 8 2015, 06:22 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 05:59 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Aug 8 2015, 05:19 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 05:14 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Aug 8 2015, 04:53 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 04:43 PM
SSGSS is not even 2x base Goku/Vegeta's forms in FnF.
Unlikely considering Goku says this:
RoF Synopsis
 
This just annoys Freeza even further. Goku powers up, whipping up a cloud of dust, and after a moment, Freeza expresses his confusion; isn’t Goku going to become a Super Saiyan? Goku says there’s no need to go that far.


And what does this prove?
Goku absorbed SSG powers in his base form during BoG, indeed, despite begin a little weaker than his SSG state, he was still capable to fight decently against 70% Beerus.
Then, in FnF, base Goku and base Vegeta are training with Whis: this means that base Goku (FnF) > base Goku (post God, BoG) < SSG Goku (BoG).
Now, we could assume that SSGSS Goku is 50x base Goku as normal Ssj multiplier used to be if Whis, in FnF, didn't flat out state that SSGSS Goku is still weaker than 100% Beerus.
However, we know that trained SSGSS Goku in FnF is stronger than BoG SSG Goku: in fact, him and Vegeta together could probably be capable to take 100% Beerus.

Whis > 100% Beerus >= SSGSS Goku + SSGSS Vegeta > 100% Golden Freeza > SSGSS Goku/Vegeta > 70% Beerus > BoG SSG Goku > base Goku/Vegeta (FnF) > base Goku (BoG, post God)

And since we know that it is:

100% Beerus: 10
70% Beerus: 7
SSG Goku: 6

and that base Goku post God in BoG is not that much weaker than his SSG transformation, it's easy to understand that the SSGSS multiplier over the FnF base form can't nowhere be more than 2X.
The implication is that there's a significant difference between his base and Super Saiyan self. If that's not enough, there's Beerus merely sneezing an attack powerful enough to defeat base Goku and Vegeta. There's also a very weakened Golden Freeza claiming Vegeta couldn't beat him as he was. There are myriad of implications within the movie that base Goku is much weaker than SSGSS Goku. As for why base Goku could keep up with Beerus in Battle of Gods, I merely assume his power was slowly decreasing and it had to be maintained by his Super Saiyan form.


Goku absorbed most of the power of SSG in his base form during BoG, yet nobody in FnF tells us that base Goku (FnF) got weaker than his post God base form in BoG.
Golden Freeza at his full power was stronger than SSGSS Goku/Vegeta, so it makes perfectly sense, even with a 2X multiplier at most, that a drained Golden Freeza was still superior to base Goku/Vegeta.

Nagito Komaeda
Aug 8 2015, 05:21 PM
In BoG, it got to the point where SSJ Goku (Post-God) threw a full power Kamehameha at Beerus and it did absolutely nothing.


Ssj Goku post-God = base Goku post-God in BoG, there's no hinted difference between them and the fact that his Kamehameha did nothing to Beerus fits perfectly with a bad-mood Beerus capable to kill them, in base, with that blast in FnF.

- We got specifically stated that Goku absorbed most of the godly Ki in his base form during BoG
- In FnF, we see base Goku training with even Whis, and nothing states that base Goku (FnF) is < base Goku (post-God BoG). On the contrary, everything hints at base Goku getting even stronger.
- SSGSS is stated by Whis to still be < 100% Beerus.

You can't escape from these constraints, they automatically determine the power-chain and the gaps, and Golden Freeza still perfectly fits in it.

Can you give me the quote where it said most of the godkly ki? As far as I recall, it was only stated that Goku's body had adapted to the ki and, as a result, gotten a lot stronger.


Here it is:

"As Goku struggles against Beerus' energy ball, Beerus tells Goku that Super Saiyan God's time limit ran out a long time ago. Goku apparently did not notice, because as he fought he absorbed that realm of power into his body. Due to this, even after returning to normal, Goku still did not power down very much. Beerus says that Goku is really something, a rare genius"

Official Kanzenshuu source here

Fair enough, I concede on that point, but his power still dropped.

Beerus makes that claim while Goku's in SSJ. All that would mean is that SSJ Goku (Post-God) is close to SSJG Goku, not Base Goku (Post-God). Even though Goku didn't realise that he'd reverted back, him powering up to full caused him to transform into SSJ. Beerus never saw his true power either. As soon as Goku said he was going to be fully serious, he reverted back to Base.

SSJ Goku (God Ki fading) > SSJG Goku (80%) > Base Goku (God Ki fading)

The Kamehameha's amp is at least 2.22x, as we saw in the Saiyan Saga. Beerus was completely unaffected by it. That, along with the fact that Beerus was practically toying with Goku in the later part of their fight shows that his Ki dropped quite a bit.
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Sjk8
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史上最強の孫悟空

Nagito Komaeda
Aug 8 2015, 06:56 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 06:43 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Aug 8 2015, 06:22 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 05:59 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Aug 8 2015, 05:19 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 05:14 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Aug 8 2015, 04:53 PM
Sjk8
Aug 8 2015, 04:43 PM
SSGSS is not even 2x base Goku/Vegeta's forms in FnF.
Unlikely considering Goku says this:
RoF Synopsis
 
This just annoys Freeza even further. Goku powers up, whipping up a cloud of dust, and after a moment, Freeza expresses his confusion; isn’t Goku going to become a Super Saiyan? Goku says there’s no need to go that far.


And what does this prove?
Goku absorbed SSG powers in his base form during BoG, indeed, despite begin a little weaker than his SSG state, he was still capable to fight decently against 70% Beerus.
Then, in FnF, base Goku and base Vegeta are training with Whis: this means that base Goku (FnF) > base Goku (post God, BoG) < SSG Goku (BoG).
Now, we could assume that SSGSS Goku is 50x base Goku as normal Ssj multiplier used to be if Whis, in FnF, didn't flat out state that SSGSS Goku is still weaker than 100% Beerus.
However, we know that trained SSGSS Goku in FnF is stronger than BoG SSG Goku: in fact, him and Vegeta together could probably be capable to take 100% Beerus.

Whis > 100% Beerus >= SSGSS Goku + SSGSS Vegeta > 100% Golden Freeza > SSGSS Goku/Vegeta > 70% Beerus > BoG SSG Goku > base Goku/Vegeta (FnF) > base Goku (BoG, post God)

And since we know that it is:

100% Beerus: 10
70% Beerus: 7
SSG Goku: 6

and that base Goku post God in BoG is not that much weaker than his SSG transformation, it's easy to understand that the SSGSS multiplier over the FnF base form can't nowhere be more than 2X.
The implication is that there's a significant difference between his base and Super Saiyan self. If that's not enough, there's Beerus merely sneezing an attack powerful enough to defeat base Goku and Vegeta. There's also a very weakened Golden Freeza claiming Vegeta couldn't beat him as he was. There are myriad of implications within the movie that base Goku is much weaker than SSGSS Goku. As for why base Goku could keep up with Beerus in Battle of Gods, I merely assume his power was slowly decreasing and it had to be maintained by his Super Saiyan form.


Goku absorbed most of the power of SSG in his base form during BoG, yet nobody in FnF tells us that base Goku (FnF) got weaker than his post God base form in BoG.
Golden Freeza at his full power was stronger than SSGSS Goku/Vegeta, so it makes perfectly sense, even with a 2X multiplier at most, that a drained Golden Freeza was still superior to base Goku/Vegeta.

Nagito Komaeda
Aug 8 2015, 05:21 PM
In BoG, it got to the point where SSJ Goku (Post-God) threw a full power Kamehameha at Beerus and it did absolutely nothing.


Ssj Goku post-God = base Goku post-God in BoG, there's no hinted difference between them and the fact that his Kamehameha did nothing to Beerus fits perfectly with a bad-mood Beerus capable to kill them, in base, with that blast in FnF.

- We got specifically stated that Goku absorbed most of the godly Ki in his base form during BoG
- In FnF, we see base Goku training with even Whis, and nothing states that base Goku (FnF) is < base Goku (post-God BoG). On the contrary, everything hints at base Goku getting even stronger.
- SSGSS is stated by Whis to still be < 100% Beerus.

You can't escape from these constraints, they automatically determine the power-chain and the gaps, and Golden Freeza still perfectly fits in it.

Can you give me the quote where it said most of the godkly ki? As far as I recall, it was only stated that Goku's body had adapted to the ki and, as a result, gotten a lot stronger.


Here it is:

"As Goku struggles against Beerus' energy ball, Beerus tells Goku that Super Saiyan God's time limit ran out a long time ago. Goku apparently did not notice, because as he fought he absorbed that realm of power into his body. Due to this, even after returning to normal, Goku still did not power down very much. Beerus says that Goku is really something, a rare genius"

Official Kanzenshuu source here

Fair enough, I concede on that point, but his power still dropped.

Beerus makes that claim while Goku's in SSJ. All that would mean is that SSJ Goku (Post-God) is close to SSJG Goku, not Base Goku (Post-God). Even though Goku didn't realise that he'd reverted back, him powering up to full caused him to transform into SSJ. Beerus never saw his true power either. As soon as Goku said he was going to be fully serious, he reverted back to Base.

SSJ Goku (God Ki fading) > SSJG Goku (80%) > Base Goku (God Ki fading)

The Kamehameha's amp is at least 2.22x, as we saw in the Saiyan Saga. Beerus was completely unaffected by it. That, along with the fact that Beerus was practically toying with Goku in the later part of their fight shows that his Ki dropped quite a bit.


I've rewatched the scenes: Beerus actually says the quote I posted to Ssj Goku, albeit the quote itself refers to Goku in his normal state.
I thus think that a case could be made for "normal" as Goku without his "godly" status (and so even Ssj Goku can be taken into account) or specifically for black hair Goku only.
In the first case, as ThePrinceOfSaiyajins said, the power gaps would be a little bigger and it would be easier to place post-God Ssj Goku in the power-chain; in the second case, the gaps would have to be tight, with Ssj Goku post-God >= base Goku post-God at best and necessarily a 2x boost at most for the SSGSS transformation.
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Saberoph
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To continue my terminology section.

1st Form Cell=Cell.
2nd Form Cell=Imperfect Cell.
Perfect Cell.
Super Perfect Cell=Ascended Perfect Cell.
Mr. Boo.
Evil Boo.
Fat Boo.
Chibi Boo=Majin Boo.
Super Boo.
Buff Boo.
Bootenks.
Booccolo.
Ultimate Boo.
1st Form Frieza=4th Form.
2nd Form Frieza=3rd Form.
3rd Form=2nd Form.
Final Form=Initial 1st Form.
Cooler's 5th Form=100%.

I can't think of anything else, so I guess this concluded my whole Multipliers and Terminology lists, I'm sure someone else will post there's so I'm looking forward to it.
Edited by Saberoph, Aug 10 2015, 06:19 AM.
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Zippy_Skillz
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I have everything all nice at
50x
2x
4x
10x for Oozaru. (Point it there would always be a way to work it out)
But the new movies seem to drop this judging by base Goku's results against Beerus in. Bog at best SSJG would be a 2x. I dont even bother with those multipliers post Buu saga when it comes to New material I use multipliers judging by user.
Fusion all on plot with possible rival boosts for Potara.
Edited by Zippy_Skillz, Aug 10 2015, 08:56 AM.
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