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| @BruceFaulconer Thanks everyone for the recent tweets about DragonBall Z. ...... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 28 2015, 01:08 AM (6,909 Views) | |
| TheGmGoken | Jul 28 2015, 07:43 AM Post #16 |
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Actually the reason the original BGM wasn't used in Kai is because Toei lost most of the original BGM Tracks. They only have a few left in which is the reason why Kai replacement score was repetitive. Soo it's really because the lack of resources rather than not sounding modern. As the 2008 OVA used the original BGM as well. So....you're incorrect on that point. You need better straws my friend. Bruce being more memorable is nothing but an opinion. Giving examples where the original Bgm is far more memorable in Japan compared to both Kai and Bruce (Orange bricks are KINDA popular there due to cheapness). In Korea the new BGMs are bashed a lot actually. The original is talked about much more in those places. Hence making them memorable. Can it be addressed more (Bruce) . Probably. But doesn't mean people will remember it. They could watch a whole season and only remember about 2 tracks. Hell I remember the Kai score the most and Bruce the least. It depends on what you pick up. What you remember as you watching. As I said. Worldwide the original BGM is far more memorable. It's why the composer is so expensive to hire and why his music CDs are rare and high price. It's why his music is always remixed in most DB material. It's why almost 75% of fans associated DB with his music. |
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| Super-Namek | Jul 28 2015, 01:37 PM Post #17 |
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those companies have only done that to save money |
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| EMIYA | Jul 28 2015, 05:36 PM Post #18 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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There you go, you just literally just admitted to one of the major flaws of the Kikuchi score. It's repetitiveness and doesn't change. The fact that they lost so much in the past only makes the music harder to appreciate. Rare music one thing but to have no music is a completely different story. Yes, I do say without any hint of sarcasm or regret that Bruce Faulconer's music in the long run is more memorable than Kikuchi's score. Even if people think the latter is better composed, in our time, Faulconer's music is far better recognized because it at least has a modern feel to it that can be recognized. Kikuchi's score lacks that, it's not about whether you like it or not, its about being to able to fit within the modern times and if possible be unique as well. I don't even care about Cowboy Bebop's songs other than a select few but it'll still remain a great musical score until history changes Do you know why? I've said it countless times but it seems you can't get it through your head. It's because Cowboy Bebop's score is something that is modern, it has a modern touch that the modern audience enjoys. It has a unique trait to it that at the same time stands out from the modern times and that trait is exemplified. Kikuchi's orchestrated score has little modern touches to it and the trait it does have, that orchestrated score is relatively tame and doesn't hold any distinctive style. Perhaps that was the point I missed out before, there's little style to Kikuchi's score. You can take a completely new score from Yuki Kaijura and those who know her music will instantly recognize it because it has a specific substance and style to it. You don't get it do you? You think this is some of of subjective point of view and its not. It's not about what I think, its about the world thinks and that's what I've been talking about the entire time. This isn't about what I like or don't like, this is what is the clear cut and paste point. Why do you think the English Dub and Ocean Dub decided to produce an entirely new soundtrack? Why waste money producing something that already exists? Perhaps its because the quality of the music isn't as good as it is now. It was well known that sound quality was rather off back in the old days. But if that's the case then it only enhances the point while Kikuchi's score wouldn't be popular. But what if its something else? Why though? Why did they make changes that quite frankly the rest of you deem unnecessary. Unless it was necessary. And while we're at it. Why didn't the original Japanese continue using this music? Why did they use the modern music of Kenji Yamamoto? If the music was so popular and such a hit, why not just get Kikuchi to perform another score for them? if they can't get him, why not get someone who can produce a similar quality score? It is really not obvious? Because its a relic of the past. It doesn't fit with the modern times, its not as popular in today's world, it offers little to nothing unique in terms of substance or style. It is literally your basic, all around average sound track. And there is nothing memorable about something that is average. You claim Kikuchi's score is that popular? That's funny because I can look through the countless modern series now and I'll be hard pressed to find anything similar to his score. It's not what people like anymore. It's not what's popular anymore. It doesn't hold up now in a modern time. Edited by EMIYA, Jul 28 2015, 05:39 PM.
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| + Kaboom | Jul 28 2015, 05:58 PM Post #19 |
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Musical quality doesn't matter. A score being perceived as repetitive or dated doesn't matter. Any verbose impassioned argument about which score is of higher quality or more memorable doesn't matter. All that matters is what was made for the show and placed there by its creators. A dubbing company's job is to present the same show in a new language. It is NOT their place to make "creative" changes like replacing BGM which alter the intended tone of the show. THE score for Dragon Ball and DBZ is that of Shunsuke Kikuchi. FUNimation should not have replaced the latter's with Faulconer's and whoever else's noise was before him. For GT, it's Akihito Tokunaga's score. FUNimation should not have replaced it with Mark Menza's "music." Thankfully they fixed that snafu with their remastered sets. For Kai, it was originally Kenji Yamamoto's score. However, in light of his plagiarism, Toei Animation opted to replace his score with Kikuchi's. This is entirely their responsibility and prerogative to do, as Kai was their production. Had FUNimation instead chose to replace music again, they would have been in the wrong. Thankfully, they know better nowadays. Today we've got Norihito Sumitomo handling the music for Kai's Boo arc, the new films, and now Super. His music is THE score for those productions, period. Some of his Boo Kai tracks are weird and low-quality, but that doesn't matter. It's still the music for the show. When FUNimation eventually gets to dub Boo Kai and Super, choosing to replace the music would be a foul move and cost them a lot of respect. But again, thankfully, they've vastly improved as a company and don't do that any more. Faulconer will almost definitely never come back to produce music for a Dragon Ball dub again. It's just not happening. FUNimation has grown up and left him behind. Edited by Kaboom, Jul 28 2015, 06:04 PM.
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| Tinny | Jul 28 2015, 06:06 PM Post #20 |
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You know, I do have to say, this does seem to have been left out, mainly that the manga had no score, which is silly to say because it's so obvious, but there is an issue of translating that to the animated medium, both English and Japanese and Spanish and so on. As a what if, if the audio as say, lost in transit to different dubbing companies like with rurouni kenshin, what then? Like they use their own composers to fill the void and such. |
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| EMIYA | Jul 28 2015, 06:07 PM Post #21 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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I will say this however. Thanks to a massive increase in sound quality, compared to the Z quality, Kikuchi's score in Kai comes off as far better to the ears. Which is a shame because it then becomes negated by the fact that his music in Kai becomes so repetitive at points. The mere difference in sound quality alone can really make or break something. That increase in sound quality, while not much I will say does give Kikuchi's music a more modern touch to it. It's not that much different from the Kai Voices and Original Z voices. The sound quality back then was...weak to say the least. Not going to get on the cases of the actors, some of them I enjoy, some of them i don't but that's another thing. But nobody can deny that the original sound quality back then was just lacking. So its nice to hear voices that don't sound like their being muffled through static in Kai and it comes off as much better. As much as I don't care about Nozawa's performance, I'll gladly take her performance in Kai over Z just because of the sound quality. It sounds so much better and the same goes for the music. In fact to be fair, Kai's version of Kikuchi's score better fits that point of modernity and uniqueness. The sound quality helps give it a more modern feel to it and being an orchestrated score helps to differentiate it from the usual stuff that we hear. If it wasn't so repetitive and just added a little bit more substance to that orchestrated score, it really could become something incredibly popular and memorable. Edited by EMIYA, Jul 28 2015, 06:08 PM.
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| TheGmGoken | Jul 28 2015, 06:07 PM Post #22 |
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Dark Matter... I said Kikuchi in DBZ KAI was repetitive because Toei lack resources. They don't have access to all of the original BGM no more. I never said it was in DBZ. PLEASE REREAD Once again. Memorable is subjective. As in certain countries that I listed. Kikuchi is Far more memorable there than Bruce productions. They have access to the music of BF productions as well. Yet Kikuchi is more memorable there. Even in Japan Kikuchi more memorable than Yammaoto. The reason for the replacement scores was to appeal to America audience however Ocean movies used the original BGM. And people often remember the Ocean 3 far more than Funimation versions. Why not use Kikuchi again? Toei CANT HIRE HIM. THEY CAN'T AFFORD HIM. Yammato was already known for his Dbz games BGM so it's a cheap hire for them. I actually don't remember Bebop score. Wasn't really a fan of it. Kikuchi BGM was considered old school even when Db first started. Edited by TheGmGoken, Jul 28 2015, 06:16 PM.
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| * Yu Narukami | Jul 28 2015, 06:18 PM Post #23 |
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Izanagi!
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Honestly, Faulconer's BGM is much more memorable to me than Kikuchi's BGM. Sure, it played way too often and even played tracks when silence would've been much more appropriate, but that's an issue with the placement of the tracks, not the music itself. |
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| + Ssj3vegito96 | Jul 28 2015, 06:22 PM Post #24 |
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Kais music being recycled over and over was so stupid. The placement of it was good and the songs weren't bad but faulconer's variation was good and the songs were awesome |
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| + QueenTD | Jul 28 2015, 06:31 PM Post #25 |
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My Dear Melancholy,
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I wouldn't say Mr. Bruce is more modern... His music is just loud Lol. Loud and just noise with keys ^_^. Modern would be more beats, flow, and dope stuff. A bit of techno there. Both music scores are outdated kinda lol. Can't really see anyone listening to Bruce F. They're both just... out there . But memorable? Neither lol. I can't unless I'm editing pick out a single track between the two. Dbz doesn't really have iconic or memorable music xD. It's very basic Imo. I don't think anime has good music to be fair. They all sound alike. |
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| EMIYA | Jul 28 2015, 06:33 PM Post #26 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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I think one of Kikuchi's biggest issues is the simple point that his music never gets to evolve. It's the same thing over and over again. You don't have to throw in synthesizers or anything but goodness, let the music adapt and evolve over time. A great example I think and one I can easily relate back to Kikuchi's score is the music used in the Godzilla films. You watch an old Showa film back in the 70s and it sounds as such. You listen to that music from Godzilla vs MechaGodzilla (Showa) and you can feel that glorious 70s bit. But the thing is that doesn't fit anymore so through Heisei Era and Millenium era, the music continued to evolve. The same thing happened with Bruce Faulconer although not at the same level as there was as a big of a time gap here. Not decades at least. But his music changed and evolved and frankly got better and better, no only in substance but in sound quality as well. Again just the importance of how quality of sound can matter so much. Kikuchi's score is something that honestly would probably not feel too out of place from one of the older Showa Godzilla films. That orchestrated feel to it truly would match up to it. But its as I said, it feels that this music never got to evolve over time and was just set in that 70s or 80s era. Even DBZ isn't without evolution of its music. I'm sure you've listened to old gaming soundtracks from games like Final Bout. Which to be fair I think some of the music there is really good and quite catchy, far better than game itself that's for sure. But as the games evolved so did the music. You don't take something that was composed in the 80s and then chuck it onto something from the 90s, much less 2015 and expect it to have the same result. |
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| TheGmGoken | Jul 28 2015, 06:43 PM Post #27 |
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The sound quality suffered because Toei threw away or lost all their high quality and broadcast audio tapes and they had to use the low quality sound for DVDs. Toei loses a lot of things |
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| Yuli Ban | Jul 28 2015, 08:47 PM Post #28 |
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I genuinely prefer Faulconer over Kikuchi. It's just a subjective thing. That said, I'm also Yamamoto > Faulconer. What I love most in an OST is diversity and thematic purpose. Is it a diverse soundtrack? Does it fit the show/game/movie/etc.? Those two are most important to me. Faulconer used a lot of synths and guitars, while Yamamoto used more organic instruments with a mixture of synths and computers; sort of like a best of both worlds to me. Sometimes that works. To me, for Kai, it worked. Kikuchi just sounds too "classic" for my tastes (coming from a fan of stoner rock and traditional doom metal, go figure). Faulconer sounds too "cheap" to me, especially in tracks where you can clearly tell everything's synths. |
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| Super-Namek | Jul 29 2015, 12:38 AM Post #29 |
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just so u know outside of anime circles in the US, the bruce falconer soundtrack is widely popular, TO ME it appears its the hard-core anime fans, the people who more inclined to watched Sub'd not dubbed episodes that like the original music from japan. the orginal and kai music sounds like a old western soundtrack to me lol, like i said in the other thread, youtube the BF soundtrack themes, there are Hugely popular youtube is spammed with them, kinda speaks for it self..................on being memorable and popular Edited by Super-Namek, Jul 29 2015, 12:40 AM.
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| Cloud | Jul 29 2015, 01:47 AM Post #30 |
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I posted this in another forum already, but it was a panel I saw Chris Sabat in (tons of characters in DBZ FuniDub). He talks about how the process of dubbing was done back in the day. They didn't get the audio back in the 90s like they do now. The internet was awful and Japan was rather stingy with their content. Often times they had to get episodes from Mexico and dub over the Spanish dub. Now episodes are given with just the background music, just the japanese voices, japanese voices on music, just the sound effects, etc. So when they dubbed DBZ the first time they HAD to re-create the background music. |
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