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Broly's creator... response to new material
Topic Started: Jul 4 2015, 07:47 PM (4,387 Views)
TheGmGoken
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Dark Matter
Jul 4 2015, 11:48 PM
How? This is Broly's story.

Broly was a baby, he heard another baby crying and decided to lose his absolute ungodly s*** over it and become a deranged evil villain.

This is literally the equivalent of if I was a baby and I heard some baby of color crying and grew up being a racist because of it. I mean you can present me some information on Broly being a far more complex character but right now the bar is set quite low.
It's actually deeper than that. It requires you to think and know Chinese stories. Are you familiar with Sun Wukong?

Broly does make an interesting 'dark' counterpart to Goku. Credit to rereboy

This is because they both take influence from Son Wukong, as Goku gets all the good stuff from Son Wukong's character such as the numbus and nyoi bo, Broly gets the bad things such as being exiled and having a painful power limiting headband. And while they are both OP like Wukong, Goku gets his power slowly at a rate he can manage while Broly gets it all at once and it drives him insane. He wants to murder him because he, instinctively, recognizes that he is somehow different but the same. That he somehow poses a threat to him. Hence, he recognizes him as a challenger, a rival. And the movie goes out of its way to show us clues to this, and it culminates the action by proving that Broly was absolutely right to have that instinct since Goku manages to find a way to beat him, despite being weaker, just like he managed to find a way to annoy him when they were babies despite Goku being way weaker.
The movie goes out of its way to show us that it was his own power that drove him mad, like it's very clear in the scene where he takes out one of the eyes of his father. It really has nothing to do with Goku crying.

As for that crying scene, it exists because Movie 8 goes out of its way to establish a symbolic representation of Goku's and Broly's relationship by having the weakling baby Goku still managing to annoy prodigy baby Broly who had a power level of 10.000 despite their power differences. It has nothing to do with Broly going crazy by hearing a cry when he was a baby, its a representation of their relationship and a metaphor for what happens later in the movie when Goku manages to find a way to beat Broly, which is why a flashback of that scene is played when Goku beats Broly.

As for Broly not liking Goku, that's simply because he instinctively recognizes Goku as his rival and instinctively feels the need to crush him as his rival. That's why in the movie they felt the need to even make Goku be born on the same day as Broly, to really accentuate how they are meant to be rivals, even though they are so very different, and the crying scene accentuates this even further.

If you want to believe that the carefully placed scenes of their interaction together as children (especially when Goku defeats him) and all the coincidences and parallels between the two of them are completely random, including the elements in his design that eco parts of the Sun Wukong mythology that Goku is also based on, and that Broly is mad because he simply heard crying as a baby, you are free to do so. To me, that's completely ridiculous and shows a lack of ability to grasp subtle parallels in storytelling, which aren't even that subtle, they are just subtle for DB's standards.

As for the problems you mentioned:

1. That's the whole point. Broly IS more powerful than Goku, just like he was when they were babies. However, despite that, Goku STILL finds a way to make that not matter. As a kid, he still managed to make Broly cry with his own crying despite being massively weaker, and, as an adult, with the help of his allies (something that Broly doesn't have and something that only Goku could achieve, since most of the gang are former enemies), he once again finds a way to overcome the difference between them despite being clearly weaker.

2. Broly never met Vegeta before or King Vegeta. And Broly instinctively recognizes Goku as his rival, as his counterpart. This goes beyond being powerful or being a SSJ or what they did to him in the past. He realizes that Goku has the ability to overcome the difference in their powers and ultimately overcome him. He feels it on instinct, so he recognizes him as his personal rival. And he is proven correct since, what do you know, Goku manages to do just that, overcome the difference between them and defeat him. Vegeta might be powerful and a SSJ but he was never meant to be Broly's rival and he doesn't posses Goku's ability to overcome the difference between them. The story goes out of its way to show us that the relationship, the rivalry and confrontation between Goku and Broly is meant to be and fated to happen.

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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Except the tale of Sun Wukong was never brought up or expressed within Movie 8's productivity. The tale of Sun Wunkong was a basis for the originality of Dragon Ball which soon began to take new steps into different directions. You make it sound like there's this complexity in Broly's character when in fact its just s***ty writing. Now you could have had something like, Paragas build up the hate in Broly and ultimately turned him into a slave of hatred and destruction.

That would've made sense. But the thing is, you can try to add complexity to something but that doesn't show up in the actual movie. Just in the same way that I can say that Freeza is a representation of corrupt business and how the corporation is trying to buy out the other businesses (or in this case planets) through a status of fear monger and murder.

But even though I can put that down on Freeza, that's obviously not what Freeza represents nor is it represented as such in the series. In the same way that Broly was never represented as a complex character but as nothing short of a raging brute. The exact opposite of Beerus who was represented as a complex character...or at least more complex.

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Darker
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The Lord of the Dark

I found Beerus to be much more interesting, entertaining and threatening. Broly was just a big brute with no good dialogue that came from his mouth, while Beerus was a comedic feline version of Galactus in the DBZ world. Considering how Beerus is the God of Destruction, that makes him far more enjoyable than the generic "Legendary" Ssj.

Ooooh, he has white eyes and he's big and muscly, so spoooooky.

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Piccolo: Just how many people have you sacrificed?!

Cell: Sacrifice? Hmph, rubbish! On the contrary, it is an honor to become a fraction of my power.
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Zoom
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i knew someone would compare him to the G. lolz
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TheACE
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Dark Matter
Jul 5 2015, 12:14 AM
Except the tale of Sun Wukong was never brought up or expressed within Movie 8's productivity. The tale of Sun Wunkong was a basis for the originality of Dragon Ball which soon began to take new steps into different directions. You make it sound like there's this complexity in Broly's character when in fact its just s***ty writing. Now you could have had something like, Paragas build up the hate in Broly and ultimately turned him into a slave of hatred and destruction.

That would've made sense. But the thing is, you can try to add complexity to something but that doesn't show up in the actual movie. Just in the same way that I can say that Freeza is a representation of corrupt business and how the corporation is trying to buy out the other businesses (or in this case planets) through a status of fear monger and murder.

But even though I can put that down on Freeza, that's obviously not what Freeza represents nor is it represented as such in the series. In the same way that Broly was never represented as a complex character but as nothing short of a raging brute. The exact opposite of Beerus who was represented as a complex character...or at least more complex.

Well this is a tad complex. In the INITIAL movie Broly was presented and had the potential to be the Anti-Christ to Goku's Messiah. Universes savior, universes destroyer. Both of them the first Super Saiyans Born in so many years on the same day. One of light and one of darkness. Theoretically Broly is a deeper and more complex character.

But, on the other hand, his constant resurrections brought him back for a good a*** fight, but nothing else was revealed. Broly never addresses his hatred of Goku directly, we don't see more of his troubled past. We *kinda* see him delve deeper into madness, but that's only because he keeps screaming "Kakarot" and quits talking.

Beerus really seems like the same sort of thing, being the perfect foil to the Kais. While both are good spirited and fun loving. Supreme/Kibito Kai are strict and very cautious. Beerus I wild and reckless. It takes care to create, much less to destroy (assuming you're not concerned about fall out.) again, two sides of the same coin. Beerus is fun and cool too, though honestly I thought he made a much better counterpart to Kibito Kai than Goku.

Honestly I don't think any particular antagonist has been especially compelling, save Frieza and the Androids. Realistically Baby's character arc was more amazing, taking back everything from the saiyans from the inside out in his own twisted sense of poetic justice (Which technically was correct, while still wrong) and kinda made you wonder if you were cheering for the right race. Baby made me think that Goku and Vegeta had it coming. Everything had a perspective and the villain was three dimensional. He wasn't bent on destruction or a take over, just a restoration. Revenge? Yes! Justice too though? It was in his programming. He was the savior of his extinct race. Honestly GT had some of the best villain motivations in DB.
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lazerbem
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Beers is a child who needs an asskicking, Broly is an oversensitive musclehead who needs therapy. Both have rather primitive characters, but at least Broly isn't treated as a joke half the time

@TheACE
The Shadow Dragons were pretty good too, and a nice callback to when Old Kaioshin warned against using them too much
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* Yu Narukami
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I don't think absolutely annihilating the entire Z-senshi and two-shotting Goku while only using a fraction of his true power is treating him as a joke, and those fights more than make up for the other scenes where he is acting like a child. He's immature, stroppy and quite unlikeable in a lot of scenes, but when he's serious, he's not that bad, at least when compared with Broly.
Edited by Yu Narukami, Jul 5 2015, 12:47 AM.
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TheACE
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Agreed, love the Shadow Dragons. Dragon Ball finally had consequences and they were serious ones! Use magic to solve all of your problems, ruin the balance of the earth!

Personally I think even Super 17 was functionally a better villain. Not a big Bad, but he was the ultimate Anti-Saiyan weapon and it was nice to see Gero and Myuu both get their comeuppance. Granted Beerus isn't much different being the universes demolition team, but I just had an easier time taking 17 seriously. He just seemed more threatening. But of course Beerus technically isn't a Villain, so no harm done.
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lazerbem
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Nagito Komaeda
Jul 5 2015, 12:46 AM
I don't think absolutely annihilating the entire Z-senshi and two-shotting Goku while only using a fraction of his true power is treating him as a joke, and those fights more than make up for the other scenes where he is acting like a child. He's immature, stroppy and quite unlikeable in a lot of scenes, but when he's serious, he's not that bad, at least when compared with Broly.
I did say half the time. Half the time, he's eating, sleeping, or just in general acting like comic relief. Even when he doe get around to fighting, he has a pretty humiliating moment where Vegeta of all people tanks his punch, makes him bleed, and beats him up for a bit.

Broly maintained more intimidation throughout the film, whereas with Beers, it seemed as though you could jingle some keys in front of his face and he'd forget about destroying the Earth(I know he wouldn't, but that's the impression given).
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TheACE
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Yeah his personality did jump around a bit throughout the film. Like Super Saiyan Killer ADHD. Maybe he has Super ADHD.
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* Yu Narukami
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lazerbem
Jul 5 2015, 12:53 AM
Nagito Komaeda
Jul 5 2015, 12:46 AM
I don't think absolutely annihilating the entire Z-senshi and two-shotting Goku while only using a fraction of his true power is treating him as a joke, and those fights more than make up for the other scenes where he is acting like a child. He's immature, stroppy and quite unlikeable in a lot of scenes, but when he's serious, he's not that bad, at least when compared with Broly.
I did say half the time. Half the time, he's eating, sleeping, or just in general acting like comic relief. Even when he doe get around to fighting, he has a pretty humiliating moment where Vegeta of all people tanks his punch, makes him bleed, and beats him up for a bit.

Broly maintained more intimidation throughout the film, whereas with Beers, it seemed as though you could jingle some keys in front of his face and he'd forget about destroying the Earth(I know he wouldn't, but that's the impression given).
I was never intimidated by Broly. His fights were cool, but his character is so annoying (much more than Beerus', imo) and subsequent appearances in later movies just destroyed what little decency Broly had. Plus, Beerus' background and role is much, muuu~uuuuuch more interesting than Broly's.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Beerus was intentionally designed to straddle the line between a serious villain and a comical one. Broly was always intended to be a dark and serious villain with absolute no quirks to him.

Which if you want to go with this whole "joke treatment"

Hey, at least Beerus didn't run into a wall and get peed on by children.
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TheGmGoken
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jul 5 2015, 12:00 AM
TheGmGoken
Jul 4 2015, 11:38 PM
ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jul 4 2015, 11:30 PM
TheGmGoken
Jul 4 2015, 11:24 PM
Beerus is unoriginal garbage who's an embarrassment to the DB franchise.
Hey man, whatever floats your boat. I thought he and Whis were a breath of fresh air.
Beerus - Someone with big power who been asleep for many years. Goofy personality and a crybaby. A bit of an attitude. Doesn't look scary but actually is. Stronger than SSJ form that debut. Names begin with B. Ruthless. Loves to fight and be challenged. Kais feared him. Job is to destroy

Boo - Someone with big power who been asleep for many years. Goofy personality and a crybaby. A bit of an attitude. Doesn't look scary but actually is. Stronger than a new SSJ form that debut. Names begin with B. Ruthless. Loves to fight and be challenged. Kais feared him. Live to destroy.
What a shallow comparison. Beerus hasn't been asleep, he sleeps in intervals. What's more, he isn't confined in a prison made by a wizard. Goku has a goofy personality too, would you compare him to Boo? I wouldn't. Also, crybaby? That's an exaggeration. Beerus is spoiled and impatient, certainly, but I certainly wouldn't classify him as a crybaby, unlike Boo. Yeah, Beerus has an attitude, but Boo's attitude is derivative of his stubbornness, while Beerus's is derivative of his superiority complex. Stronger than SSJ at his debut? What the f*** kind of comparison is that? That's been the case since the Artificial Humans... Seriously? What do the first letters of their names have to do with their characters? Uh, most people in this franchise love to fight, welcome to Dragon Ball. If you're going to criticize a character for being too similar to another, you may want to avoid comparing traits most other characters have. As for the Kaioshin fearing him, uh, they'd fear anyone stronger than them. Boo likes destroying, it's not his job, there is a difference.
Shallow but the truth. Beerus is nothing new. Just has a job title. Lame AF. I've bashed DB many times that too many characters are similar. So yeah you're right. Welcome to DB. As if I can't tell how Dragonball is. The They characters are rather basic . Vegeta, Ten, and Piccolo are all very similar characters with a new spin. Vegeta and Piccolo are PS and Xbox. Ten is a handheld. And please read whst I said. I said stronger than a SSJ when it debut. Boo > SSJ3. SSJ3 debut. Beerus > Kaioken..I men SSG. SSG debut. Ssj debut during Freeza not Cyborg arc. Kaioshin fear anyone with a M. And I clear said Boo destroy and it's Beerus job. Everything is the same between. Goofy a*** bi polar crybabies. OK..spoiled crybabies. Much better? They're people who enjoy destroying and was sleep for a long time. They also have big power. Quite lovely. Piccolo SR should sue both of them. Especially Boo. And I have and still will compare Boo and Goku.

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Except the tale of Sun Wukong was never brought up or expressed within Movie 8's productivity

You mean.. giving him negative Sun Wukong traits, Wukong's headband, and similar clothes is not a clear sign? How he has most of Wukong flaws? While Goku has Wukong pros? Evidence is there.

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s, you can try to add complexity to something but that doesn't show up in the actual movie

Except if you knew Sun Wukong you'll see that it's there.

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Hey, at least Beerus didn't run into a wall and get peed on by children.

Least Broly tanked Vegeta punch. Beerus can't say the same. Hell least Broly entertained. Beerus put me to Zzzzz. Lame cat he is.
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Frost Demon Mint
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I can't find someone who lets what happened to themselves as a baby be their motivation scary or interesting.
Edited by Frost Demon Mint, Jul 5 2015, 02:42 AM.
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TheGmGoken
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Frost Demon Mint
Jul 5 2015, 02:42 AM
I can't find someone who lets what happened to themselves as a baby be their motivation either scary nor interesting.
Ever watched Dexter?
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