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Snake vs John 117
Topic Started: Jun 3 2015, 03:04 AM (654 Views)
lazerbem
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John is out of his suit and Snake is in his prime. Both are armed only with a knife and are bloodlusted
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Tinny
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Bit of a nit pick, but you did not specify which, someone could assume this is Naked Snake, or Solid Snake, or Liquid Snake, or Ocelot Snake, or Solidus Snake.

Well, I think Snake probably seems like the underdog here, at first at least. He hasn't had thirty years of war for example, most of his most famous examples of prowess was in espionage missions. That said he is resourceful and crafty, sneaky as well. I assume bloodlusted means they both aim to kill the other, rather than them getting all angry and rushing at each other. As such Snake will likely not fight directly if he can avoid it, and strike from the shadows.

I said Snake was the underdog and with good reason, in his teen years John took down and I think even killed much more experienced members of the army, and he's only gotten tougher and stronger since. He's a monster in physical combat, and could probably kill Snake with a solid enough blow and choke hold. In addition he has alot of experience in war, though while that certainly helps as he's had to look out for ambushes and snipers, most of it was spent fighting armies, not assassins.

I presume he probably knocks over or simply runs away Master Chief before running off and hiding, looking for a better opportunity to take on the Chief. From there it'd be a game of cat and mouse, both trying to find the other and in the latter's case, looking for an opening to sneak up and slit his throat before running off again to wait for him to die of blood loss, Chief on the other hand would probably rush him before physically overwhelming him, and stabbing him to death.

Honestly the deciding factor I think here is where they are. If they're in an arena, Chief will win more often than Snake. If this is a crowded place with many twists and turns and places to hide, Snake will most likely win as this is his area of expertise, even if he doesn't even have a gun this time. In a compromise between the two, I imagine it'll be 55/45, depending entirely on who notices who first. That said I believe Snake would have the advantage in the compromise situation, with him more likely to look for shadows, footsteps, and himself being quieter and knowing to sneak, while Chief will stand tall, rather than hunched over or hiding in a dumpster.

So uh... I think I'll side with Snake, with no bias to be seen at all. :errm:
Edited by Tinny, Jun 4 2015, 12:15 AM.
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lazerbem
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I was referring to Solid Snake. And I think you're underestimating his physical prowess

The man jumps on missiles of all things before shooting down a helicopter. And forgive the music, it was the first one I found.

If Chief gets into CQC, it's not exactly an insta kill. Snake can keep up in speed, might be faster
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Tinny
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lazerbem
Jun 4 2015, 12:15 AM
I was referring to Solid Snake. And I think you're underestimating his physical prowess

The man jumps on missiles of all things before shooting down a helicopter. And forgive the music, it was the first one I found.

If Chief gets into CQC, it's not exactly an insta kill. Snake can keep up in speed, might be faster
It's fine, just look at my favorite anime ;)

Thing is, Snake is at the peak of humanity, but John 117 is straight up beyond it.
Snake is fast, but John has had reaction times of about 20 milliseconds -possibly shorter in a combat situation-, and enough strength to lift three times his weight, which is quite a bit more than a normal person can lift, considering his bones have been augmented in such a way that they're nearly indestructible, he's survived from about two kilometers, granted the cinimatic where it happens, implies he survived due to dumb luck and the Armour's Gel. In addition when getting ready to drag him away, they were about to radio for Heavy Lift Gear, which while this is a bit of assumption on my part, I believe they use that stuff for things like Cars, and if we take gameplay at face value (not always trust worthy ironically) he can flip a tank on his own (though I'm not so sure about this).

Snake can take just about every human in a physical confrontation, and probably quite a few people more than human. But that's usually through weaponry rather than fisticuffs. There's simply no way that Snake can break his bones, short of driving a car into him or collapsing a roof.
In Straight up knife to knife fights, I do believe that Snake either dodges and maybe nicks him a bit, preferably in a vein or artery, or he gets hurt, possibly killed.

The physical difference is just impossible to surmount in an ordinary fight, which isn't to say Snake couldn't win in CQC, it's just that he's gonna have a hell of a time winning from there. Snake can jump on a missile yes, but that's something Chief could easily match if he weren't in half ton armor. Which he isn't here.
Edited by Tinny, Jun 4 2015, 12:58 AM.
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lazerbem
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Snake is not peak human. Him reacting to a missile like that is way beyond human. There's also this
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Dodging a shot from a railgun sniper thing.

And no, John cannot lift a Scorpion. In the novels, he struggles with fighting off a Brute and lifting Warthog. Flipping tanks is just gameplay mechanics, even the ODSTs can do it. Furthermore, this is John without his armor. John without his armor can lift 1,170 lbs over his head. This is based on the fact that the Spartan 2 augmentations let you lift three times your own bodyweight and John weighs 390 lbs. He's not just going to overpower the same Snake who takes multiple punches from Liquid, someone who could dent the hull of a battleship with his punches. Another thing, John's reflexes are only tripled from the Spartan 2 augmentations. Are you telling me that tripled human reflexes let you jump on missiles and dodge railgun shots?
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滅Are you frightened?

I don't know much about John but in Solid Snake's defense, he bested Frank twice in Zanzibar and on Shadow Moses, and Frank himself was a product of The Perfect Soldier program, a genetic experimentation that heigthens the users reaction speed far greater than normal, and prior to this he killed experienced soldiers as a kid.

Professional Soldiers < Kid Frank < Frank post TPSP

Solid Snake bested him, and on Shadow Moses, Frank was in a powered exoskeleton suit further augmenting his physical capabilities (even able to somewhat fight on equal terms with REX).

To say Solid Snake's the underdog is a huge mishap.
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Tinny
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lazerbem
Jun 4 2015, 01:03 AM
Snake is not peak human. Him reacting to a missile like that is way beyond human. There's also this
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Dodging a shot from a railgun sniper thing.

And no, John cannot lift a Scorpion. In the novels, he struggles with fighting off a Brute and lifting Warthog. Flipping tanks is just gameplay mechanics, even the ODSTs can do it. Furthermore, this is John without his armor. John without his armor can lift 1,170 lbs over his head. This is based on the fact that the Spartan 2 augmentations let you lift three times your own bodyweight and John weighs 390 lbs. He's not just going to overpower the same Snake who takes multiple punches from Liquid, someone who could dent the hull of a battleship with his punches. Another thing, John's reflexes are only tripled from the Spartan 2 augmentations. Are you telling me that tripled human reflexes let you jump on missiles and dodge railgun shots?
Okay, good to know, I was pretty skeptical about the whole flipping scorpions thing.
As for the whole railgun thing...Yeah I plain forgot about that. Whoops >_<
With all that said, I do believe that John still has an advantage in close quarters combat.
As for the tripled human reflexes, I'll be honest from those two I think we can conclude that Humanity is alot tougher in the land of Metal Gear if these are clones of Big Boss. While they're both able to tank punches pretty well, I distinctly remember Snake getting stabbed pretty good by Ocelot Snake... which was then pulled out by Drebin despite Snake being unable to. In any case they're both vulnerable to a good knife cut.
As for the tripled human reflexes... I'm honestly not sure, I don't remember many specific feats from John 117 aside from the statistic I listed earlier. Considering he's been talked up as a Spartan and all, I want to give him benefit of the doubt and say that yes, he could dodge railgun shots and jump on a missile in a similar situation, but... yeah. I am unsure.
And in any case he is certainly tough enough that Snake is gonna have a hell of a time doing anything deeper than a flesh wound, though between the ribs, in the neck, stomach, and so on I imagine would probably get a good wound in.

This a silly question but do you get the feeling that we're concurring with each other? Granted I'm saying Snake wins if he gets to hide and John 117 wins if he gets to fight, but over all I see Snake winning more often than not with the three situations I laid out.
Edited by Tinny, Jun 4 2015, 01:55 AM.
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lazerbem
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As for the tripled human reflexes, I'll be honest from those two I think we can conclude that Humanity is alot tougher in the land of Metal Gear if these are clones of Big Boss. While they're both able to tank punches pretty well, I distinctly remember Snake getting stabbed pretty good by Ocelot Snake... which was then pulled out by Drebin despite Snake being unable to. In any case they're both vulnerable to a good knife cut.

Who even knows what those knives were made out of? Them being stabbed doesn't necessarily lower durability. It's kind of like how Spiderman takes being slammed through walls with no problem but a random knife pierces him without issue.
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As for the tripled human reflexes... I'm honestly not sure, I don't remember many specific feats from John 117 aside from the statistic I listed earlier. Considering he's been talked up as a Spartan and all, I want to give him benefit of the doubt and say that yes, he could dodge railgun shots and jump on a missile in a similar situation

It's not a feat, it's a statistic. It's a part of the Spartan 2 program that their reflexes are tripled. And 300% human reflexes does not equal dodging railgun shots or stepping on missiles. John tears his Achilles Tendon after running at just 65 mph, to even have the audacity of super sonic reflexes, that shouldn't have happened. Furthermore, he's usually slower than Kelly, who is 38.5 mph in her suit. I know travel speed isn't reflex speed, but I have a hard time visualizing Chief without his suit being capable of dodging bullets. Three times human reflexes is not enough to dodge projectiles moving at mach 2+
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And in any case he is certainly tough enough that Snake is gonna have a hell of a time doing anything deeper than a flesh wound, though between the ribs, in the neck, stomach, and so on I imagine would probably get a good wound in.

His flesh is not any different, we can see that when he ruined his Achilles Tendon from running at 65 mph. Getting a knife into his neck would still kill. His bones are tougher, but Snake is precise enough to avoid them.
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This a silly question but do you get the feeling that we're concurring with each other? Granted I'm saying Snake wins if he gets to hide and John 117 wins if he gets to fight, but over all I see Snake winning more often than not with the three situations I laid out.

I see Snake being able to win in a brawl and stomping in stealth.
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Who even knows what those knives were made out of? Them being stabbed doesn't necessarily lower durability. It's kind of like how Spiderman takes being slammed through walls with no problem but a random knife pierces him without issue.

What I was trying to say with that statement is for whatever reason, I believe the knives are gonna wound just as well as anything, probably better than most things actually.

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It's not a feat, it's a statistic. It's a part of the Spartan 2 program that their reflexes are tripled. And 300% human reflexes does not equal dodging railgun shots or stepping on missiles. John tears his Achilles Tendon after running at just 65 mph, to even have the audacity of super sonic reflexes, that shouldn't have happened. Furthermore, he's usually slower than Kelly, who is 38.5 mph in her suit. I know travel speed isn't reflex speed, but I have a hard time visualizing Chief without his suit being capable of dodging bullets. Three times human reflexes is not enough to dodge projectiles moving at mach 2+

Fair enough, I can understand that position (Though I have to wonder what the hell Snake is at that point since that definitely ain't human, but that's irrelevant).

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His flesh is not any different, we can see that when he ruined his Achilles Tendon from running at 65 mph. Getting a knife into his neck would still kill. His bones are tougher, but Snake is precise enough to avoid them.

I'm gonna have to agree on that. I'll admit after this I think I came in with a bit of an lower impression of Snake than I realized. I mostly think of him as human. I blame the gameplay of the Metal Gear series.

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I see Snake being able to win in a brawl and stomping in stealth.

I must confess, after all this I'll admit I think even though I thought Snake would win more often, I didn't quite realize how much he'd win. So much for the Spartan project I suppose. Thank you for informing me Lazerbem.

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To say Solid Snake's the underdog is a huge mishap.

I wouldn't that it's a huge mishap er, Solid Snake. But it's definitely a mishap, I'd probably place my initial impression due to how the two are presented, especially Snake in MGS4 (that's kind of how I got introduced to the series, I should play that again).
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

Yeah Snake should take this "peak human" in MGS is as realistic as "peak human" in Marvel :rofl: I would go so far as to say he's superhuman really.

I mean he defeats Gray Fox who towards the end of his life stops REX from stamping on Snake.

He obviously doesn't brofist straight up knock out Fox but doesn't die against a crazy cyborg ninja with a mad strong suit who can turn invisible and not because Fox runs in to Nikita rockets like he does in the game...


For durability there's also Old Snake walking through those corridors filled with microwave emitters, that's insane. Obviously his suit protects him there but only his body his head isn't protected at all, so hard to say how much the suit could have done when his brain would be getting cooked anyway.
And then after that he still pulls off beating Liquid.

As for dodging the railgun blast, that could certainly be chalked up to instinct rather than reaction speeds, Solid Eye might have helped there too.
He may not have as many years experience as John but he does have the genes of Big Boss who has way more than that under his belt, whatever made him the ultimate soldier is in Solid Snake too.

I'd definitely have that as instinctual though, him actually topping out with the missile feat(or anything else I've forgotten)
I guess you could also add Raiden in MGS2 being able to shoot thrown knives out of the air, he's vastly inferior to Snake. Thrown by Vamp too.
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