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Stronger than SSJG?
Topic Started: May 31 2015, 06:48 PM (2,177 Views)
TheACE
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The Last GT Fighter

Aside from the functionality? Performance. Easil ability to multiply techniques by ten. A proven track record of killing corrupted godly incarnations of the elements. Little things like that. We SAW Goku picking up cities, racing across continents, atomizing the surrounding landscape, deflecting planetary range and no selling planetary range moves. Proof is in the visuals. And Feats do trump statements. Besides, when was the last time someone got a new form and DIDNT get surprised about reaching a realm of power they didn't even know existed? That's an actual DBX Troupe.
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Slifer
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Easil ability to multiply techniques by ten.


So Kaioken > SSJG?

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A proven track record of killing corrupted godly incarnations of the elements.


I'm talking about Bebi-arc SSJ4 Goku, not SD. Big big difference.

Quote:
 
We SAW Goku picking up cities,


SSJG Goku was never in a situation where he had to lift a city. Not a fair comparison.

Quote:
 
racing across continents, atomizing the surrounding landscape, deflecting planetary range and no selling planetary range moves.


Namek-arc Freeza and SSJ Goku feats.

Quote:
 
Besides, when was the last time someone got a new form and DIDNT get surprised about reaching a realm of power they didn't even know existed?


Well, if we want to make a direct comparison to his SSJG reaction, then SSJ4 Goku.

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And Feats do trump statements.


You're right. SSJG has the edge in both of those.

Also worth nothing that pre-God Base Goku and GT Base Goku are on entirely different realms of power. Give the SSJG boost to GT Goku and he damn well might clear GT.




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TheACE
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What... What feats have you presented? What statements have you presented? You didn't give me anything Hashbro.
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Slifer
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What... What feats have you presented?


Your feats have been done by weaklings like Namek-arc Freeza and SSJ Gotenks pre.

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What statements have you presented?


I gave you Goku saying fusion wouldn't be enough against Beerus, then having SSJG pushing him at 70% power.

Goku outright said it's a level of power he couldn't have imagined, putting it significantly higher than SSJ3 Vegetto.

SSJG boost >>>> Potara + SSJ3 boost

SBV1 was the first person to surpass SSJ Vegetto's power (ignoring the new movies for obvious reasons). Standard multipliers would put SSJ3 Vegetto 8x higher than SSJ.

> SBV1 > SSJ Vegetto

SBV2 is somewhat stronger than that. Probably safe to put him above SSJ2 Vegetto by this point, but not SSJ3.

SSJ3 Vegetto > SBV2 > SSJ2 Vegetto >= SBV1 > SSJ Vegetto

SSJ4 Goku spanked SBV2. A hefty gap between the two.

SSJ4 Goku >>> SBV2 > SSJ2 Vegetto >= SBV1 > SSJ Vegetto

Great Ape Bebi was, at the very least, on par with SSJ4 Goku. If you run with the 10x Oozaru boost, that means SSJ4 Goku is 10x SBV2 max, and less than 10x SSJ3 Vegetto.

Great Ape Bebi >= SSJ4 Goku >> SSJ3 Vegetto > SBV2 > SSJ2 Vegetto >= SBV1 > SSJ Vegetto

If SSJG Goku is less than 10x SSJ3 Vegetto, his statement if that level of power being "unimaginable" doesn't really make sense.

That's probably a mess and I probably didn't proofread enough but oh well.

Edited by Slifer, Jun 26 2015, 03:33 AM.
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TheACE
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Those are some pretty hefty assumptions about Vegetto in relation to Baby. And Goku still held a controlling edge on his duel with Baby. No decisively, but enough to give him his win, so if nothng, Goku still hits the top of your gt chain.

and, unimaginable is subjective. Even getting close to a fused fighter's power for Goku probably blew his monkey mind, never the less stepping it up. And its still all relative. And incredibly vague, the statements dont even directly correlate. And feats wise, God Goku still didnt DO anything. He floated and talked, then powered down, then actually got up to kick some a***. Just onnthat, technically Super Saiyan Goku is more effective than 3 AND God Mode.
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TheACE
Jun 26 2015, 02:05 AM
How, how would you even know that?
How do I know that? SSJG made Goku from far far weaker than Base Gotenks while using SSJ3 to a lot stronger than SSJ3 Vegito, that's a boost of the thousands. SSJ4 is a mere potential unlock unless you're impling that Goku was thousands of times stronger in SSJ4 and he had such a massive potential, then it's fine.
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TheACE
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SSJ4 Goku
Jun 28 2015, 05:31 PM
TheACE
Jun 26 2015, 02:05 AM
How, how would you even know that?
How do I know that? SSJG made Goku from far far weaker than Base Gotenks while using SSJ3 to a lot stronger than SSJ3 Vegito, that's a boost of the thousands. SSJ4 is a mere potential unlock unless you're impling that Goku was thousands of times stronger in SSJ4 and he had such a massive potential, then it's fine.
Pretty much that actually.
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So you think Goku's potential is so great that it granted him a boost of the tens of thousands even though in DBZ and DB he wasn't ever implied to get even a 10x increase? I clearly disagree cause that would make the GT powerscalling literally insane, but whatever you like I guess :p .
Edited by Majin Vegeta, Jun 28 2015, 06:02 PM.
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TheACE
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SSJ4 Goku
Jun 28 2015, 06:01 PM
So you think Goku's potential is so great that it granted him a boost of the tens of thousands even though in DBZ and DB he wasn't ever implied to get even a 10x increase? I clearly disagree cause that would make the GT powerscalling literally insane, but whatever you like I guess :p .
Closer to 4 to 8 thousand off of his base, depending on what the plot demands, but pretty much yeah. It's literally no more Ludacris ludicrous than anything else I've seen on the show. Super Saiyan Four is a legendary thing known only by the oldest and wisest of the Kais. Super Saiyan God Mode is known only to Shenron and older gods like Beerus and Whis. Similar backgrounds, similar effects, even the color is the same. I honestly don't see why it couldn't be insanely powerful. It's got the track records to prove the form's ridiculous power, so it can have an absolutely absurd arbitrary number.
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Slifer
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TheACE
Jun 28 2015, 06:49 PM
SSJ4 Goku
Jun 28 2015, 06:01 PM
So you think Goku's potential is so great that it granted him a boost of the tens of thousands even though in DBZ and DB he wasn't ever implied to get even a 10x increase? I clearly disagree cause that would make the GT powerscalling literally insane, but whatever you like I guess :p .
Closer to 4 to 8 thousand off of his base, depending on what the plot demands, but pretty much yeah. It's literally no more Ludacris ludicrous than anything else I've seen on the show. Super Saiyan Four is a legendary thing known only by the oldest and wisest of the Kais. Super Saiyan God Mode is known only to Shenron and older gods like Beerus and Whis. Similar backgrounds, similar effects, even the color is the same. I honestly don't see why it couldn't be insanely powerful. It's got the track records to prove the form's ridiculous power, so it can have an absolutely absurd arbitrary number.
Hypothetical question.

Do you think Bebi-arc SSJ4 Goku is stronger than a hypothetical Bebi-arc SSJ3 Vegetto?
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TheACE
Jun 28 2015, 06:49 PM
SSJ4 Goku
Jun 28 2015, 06:01 PM
So you think Goku's potential is so great that it granted him a boost of the tens of thousands even though in DBZ and DB he wasn't ever implied to get even a 10x increase? I clearly disagree cause that would make the GT powerscalling literally insane, but whatever you like I guess :p .
Closer to 4 to 8 thousand off of his base, depending on what the plot demands, but pretty much yeah. It's literally no more Ludacris ludicrous than anything else I've seen on the show. Super Saiyan Four is a legendary thing known only by the oldest and wisest of the Kais. Super Saiyan God Mode is known only to Shenron and older gods like Beerus and Whis. Similar backgrounds, similar effects, even the color is the same. I honestly don't see why it couldn't be insanely powerful. It's got the track records to prove the form's ridiculous power, so it can have an absolutely absurd arbitrary number.
But the question remains, where is the basis for such a huge boost? SSJG has a basis but there's literally no reason to have SSJ4 so high, it's merely a potential unlock, even weaker than Elder Kai's. You're basically saying that Goku's potential >>>> Gohan's and that goes against what we've seen so far and you are also forgetting that Goku has received a potential unlock before and he didn't even become 3x stronger. Just because it's red like SSJG doesn't make it just as powerful, SSJG is a godly boost, SSJ4 is just a mere potential unlock, heck not even Gohan with Elder Kai's got this insane boost, not even close.

And on another note, Whis had no idea about SSJG and Beerus heard it in his dream, he also had no idea.
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TheACE
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Mr. Hashbrowns
Jun 28 2015, 06:53 PM
TheACE
Jun 28 2015, 06:49 PM
SSJ4 Goku
Jun 28 2015, 06:01 PM
So you think Goku's potential is so great that it granted him a boost of the tens of thousands even though in DBZ and DB he wasn't ever implied to get even a 10x increase? I clearly disagree cause that would make the GT powerscalling literally insane, but whatever you like I guess :p .
Closer to 4 to 8 thousand off of his base, depending on what the plot demands, but pretty much yeah. It's literally no more Ludacris ludicrous than anything else I've seen on the show. Super Saiyan Four is a legendary thing known only by the oldest and wisest of the Kais. Super Saiyan God Mode is known only to Shenron and older gods like Beerus and Whis. Similar backgrounds, similar effects, even the color is the same. I honestly don't see why it couldn't be insanely powerful. It's got the track records to prove the form's ridiculous power, so it can have an absolutely absurd arbitrary number.
Hypothetical question.

Do you think Bebi-arc SSJ4 Goku is stronger than a hypothetical Bebi-arc SSJ3 Vegetto?
That's a tough one. Usually a fused fighter seems to jump a stage or two above their non fused counter-part. I'd say power-wise Vegetto might have an edge, but stats-wise Goku has it hands down. Durability, stamina, endurance, the works. Saiyan Ascended Even Further Beyond is a radically flawed form.
Tough to gauge since Goku's power is consistently in flux during GT, at least until Super 17.

Quote:
 
But the question remains, where is the basis for such a huge boost? SSJG has a basis but there's literally no reason to have SSJ4 so high, it's merely a potential unlock, even weaker than Elder Kai's. You're basically saying that Goku's potential >>>> Gohan's and that goes against what we've seen so far and you are also forgetting that Goku has received a potential unlock before and he didn't even become 3x stronger. Just because it's red like SSJG doesn't make it just as powerful, SSJG is a godly boost, SSJ4 is just a mere potential unlock, heck not even Gohan with Elder Kai's got this insane boost, not even close.

And on another note, Whis had no idea about SSJG and Beerus heard it in his dream, he also had no idea.


You're making a staggering amount of assumptions. First, there isn't an actual consensus on wether Super Saiyan Four is a potential unlock or an actual power up. If anything it's relative to Blutz Waves. The more someone takes in, the stronger it seems to make a Golden Oozaru and by extension a Super Saiyan Four. So regardless of potential levels, power is power. Super Saiyan God Mode is a godly boost, but its amazing how very little good it actually did. And how do you gauge the potential unlock? There are no numbers. At all. Any formal number is arbitrary and theoretical. It's seriously just a theorem (And I hesitate to use that word since it can't honestly be proven on paper.) Now if there was a way to find out how the blutz waves proportionately multiply a Saiyan's power, then maybe it could be quantified. But honestly as it stands, boosts from either form are just "What the plot demands."
Edited by TheACE, Jun 28 2015, 07:07 PM.
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Slifer
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TheACE
Jun 28 2015, 07:02 PM
Mr. Hashbrowns
Jun 28 2015, 06:53 PM
TheACE
Jun 28 2015, 06:49 PM
SSJ4 Goku
Jun 28 2015, 06:01 PM
So you think Goku's potential is so great that it granted him a boost of the tens of thousands even though in DBZ and DB he wasn't ever implied to get even a 10x increase? I clearly disagree cause that would make the GT powerscalling literally insane, but whatever you like I guess :p .
Closer to 4 to 8 thousand off of his base, depending on what the plot demands, but pretty much yeah. It's literally no more Ludacris ludicrous than anything else I've seen on the show. Super Saiyan Four is a legendary thing known only by the oldest and wisest of the Kais. Super Saiyan God Mode is known only to Shenron and older gods like Beerus and Whis. Similar backgrounds, similar effects, even the color is the same. I honestly don't see why it couldn't be insanely powerful. It's got the track records to prove the form's ridiculous power, so it can have an absolutely absurd arbitrary number.
Hypothetical question.

Do you think Bebi-arc SSJ4 Goku is stronger than a hypothetical Bebi-arc SSJ3 Vegetto?
That's a tough one. Usually a fused fighter seems to jump a stage or two above their non fused counter-part. I'd say power-wise Vegetto might have an edge, but stats-wise Goku has it hands down. Durability, stamina, endurance, the works. Saiyan Ascended Even Further Beyond is a radically flawed form.
Tough to gauge since Goku's power is consistently in flux during GT, at least until Super 17.
Why would the two be even remotely close in power?

SBV1 was the first person to surpass Z SSJ Vegetto. GT Base Goku > Boohan. Throw in a hefty Vegeta gain and the gap between the Bebi-arc and Boo-arc Vegetto's becomes enormous.

SSJ4 needs to be comfortably ahead of SBV2, nothing more. So why push his power that high?
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TheACE
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The Last GT Fighter

Mr. Hashbrowns
Jun 28 2015, 07:08 PM
TheACE
Jun 28 2015, 07:02 PM
Mr. Hashbrowns
Jun 28 2015, 06:53 PM
TheACE
Jun 28 2015, 06:49 PM
SSJ4 Goku
Jun 28 2015, 06:01 PM
So you think Goku's potential is so great that it granted him a boost of the tens of thousands even though in DBZ and DB he wasn't ever implied to get even a 10x increase? I clearly disagree cause that would make the GT powerscalling literally insane, but whatever you like I guess :p .
Closer to 4 to 8 thousand off of his base, depending on what the plot demands, but pretty much yeah. It's literally no more Ludacris ludicrous than anything else I've seen on the show. Super Saiyan Four is a legendary thing known only by the oldest and wisest of the Kais. Super Saiyan God Mode is known only to Shenron and older gods like Beerus and Whis. Similar backgrounds, similar effects, even the color is the same. I honestly don't see why it couldn't be insanely powerful. It's got the track records to prove the form's ridiculous power, so it can have an absolutely absurd arbitrary number.
Hypothetical question.

Do you think Bebi-arc SSJ4 Goku is stronger than a hypothetical Bebi-arc SSJ3 Vegetto?
That's a tough one. Usually a fused fighter seems to jump a stage or two above their non fused counter-part. I'd say power-wise Vegetto might have an edge, but stats-wise Goku has it hands down. Durability, stamina, endurance, the works. Saiyan Ascended Even Further Beyond is a radically flawed form.
Tough to gauge since Goku's power is consistently in flux during GT, at least until Super 17.
Why would the two be even remotely close in power?

SBV1 was the first person to surpass Z SSJ Vegetto. GT Base Goku > Boohan. Throw in a hefty Vegeta gain and the gap between the Bebi-arc and Boo-arc Vegetto's becomes enormous.

SSJ4 needs to be comfortably ahead of SBV2, nothing more. So why push his power that high?
I honestly find it ridiculous to power scale without a matching feat or a character. Honestly the sliding scale of super villainy mixed with plot is the easiest way for me to figure it.
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Slifer
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TheACE
Jun 28 2015, 07:11 PM
Mr. Hashbrowns
Jun 28 2015, 07:08 PM
TheACE
Jun 28 2015, 07:02 PM
Mr. Hashbrowns
Jun 28 2015, 06:53 PM
TheACE
Jun 28 2015, 06:49 PM
SSJ4 Goku
Jun 28 2015, 06:01 PM
So you think Goku's potential is so great that it granted him a boost of the tens of thousands even though in DBZ and DB he wasn't ever implied to get even a 10x increase? I clearly disagree cause that would make the GT powerscalling literally insane, but whatever you like I guess :p .
Closer to 4 to 8 thousand off of his base, depending on what the plot demands, but pretty much yeah. It's literally no more Ludacris ludicrous than anything else I've seen on the show. Super Saiyan Four is a legendary thing known only by the oldest and wisest of the Kais. Super Saiyan God Mode is known only to Shenron and older gods like Beerus and Whis. Similar backgrounds, similar effects, even the color is the same. I honestly don't see why it couldn't be insanely powerful. It's got the track records to prove the form's ridiculous power, so it can have an absolutely absurd arbitrary number.
Hypothetical question.

Do you think Bebi-arc SSJ4 Goku is stronger than a hypothetical Bebi-arc SSJ3 Vegetto?
That's a tough one. Usually a fused fighter seems to jump a stage or two above their non fused counter-part. I'd say power-wise Vegetto might have an edge, but stats-wise Goku has it hands down. Durability, stamina, endurance, the works. Saiyan Ascended Even Further Beyond is a radically flawed form.
Tough to gauge since Goku's power is consistently in flux during GT, at least until Super 17.
Why would the two be even remotely close in power?

SBV1 was the first person to surpass Z SSJ Vegetto. GT Base Goku > Boohan. Throw in a hefty Vegeta gain and the gap between the Bebi-arc and Boo-arc Vegetto's becomes enormous.

SSJ4 needs to be comfortably ahead of SBV2, nothing more. So why push his power that high?
I honestly find it ridiculous to power scale without a matching feat or a character. Honestly the sliding scale of super villainy mixed with plot is the easiest way for me to figure it.
Alright, look at the gap between Boo-arc SSJ Vegetto and SSJ3 Goku. Hundreds, if not thousands of times stronger. Do you think SSJ4 would cover that gap?
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