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Toguro runs the Dragonball Z gauntlet.
Topic Started: May 21 2015, 03:57 PM (3,953 Views)
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Crazy Awesome Legend

Toguru from Yu Yu Hakusho runs the DBZ gauntlet. How far can he go?

Saiyan Saga

Radditz
Nappa
Vegeta

Freeza Saga

Cui
Vegeta
Dodoria
Zarbon
Monster Zarbon
Recoome
Jeice
Burter
Ginyu
Freeza first form
Freeza second form
Freeza third form
Freeza fourth form
Freeza 50%
Freeza 100%

Cell Saga

Android 19
Android 20
Cyborg 18
Cyborg 17
Inperfect Cell
Android 16
Semi Perfect Cell
Cell Junior
Initial perfect Cell
Cell games Perfect Cell warm up
50% Perfect Cell
100% Perfect Cell
Super Perfect cell


I can't see him getting past First form Freeza but I can imagine him beating Ginyu.


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supersaqer
May 26 2015, 10:22 AM
Not even remotely close to what that ki blast crossed.

That's because the Makankosappo is extremely dangerous and powerful. That's why it killed him. There's a huge difference between pain tolerance and durability.

He cannot regenerate from an attack more powerful than him. Look at what happened at the end of his fight against Yusuke. Also an attack that has insane dc would just blow through him and kill him instantly.

They weren't crappy. Goku and Piccolo fought full effort from the morning to the dawn. Please do not use useless and wrong arguments. He would get blitzed and killed. The amount of down-play DB receives here is agonizing.
Again you can't tell how fast it was going or what distance it went so being in one panel is irrelevant.

But it doesn't make any bigger a hole than that other beam would have it wouldn't do more damage with the same sized hole.

Deus Ex Machina he also got his neck snapped and hit by another shot and it did nothing, and at that point he was at 85%.
Plus it's human spirit energy which destroys demon energy, can't really have that advantage here considering there's nothing similar to both demon and spirit energy in DBZ so they can't both be there.


They are crappy they only pull off a handful of beams before they're exhausted only later on does Ki practically become an infinite resource due to plot.
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Steve
May 26 2015, 04:05 PM
supersaqer
May 26 2015, 10:22 AM
Not even remotely close to what that ki blast crossed.

That's because the Makankosappo is extremely dangerous and powerful. That's why it killed him. There's a huge difference between pain tolerance and durability.

He cannot regenerate from an attack more powerful than him. Look at what happened at the end of his fight against Yusuke. Also an attack that has insane dc would just blow through him and kill him instantly.

They weren't crappy. Goku and Piccolo fought full effort from the morning to the dawn. Please do not use useless and wrong arguments. He would get blitzed and killed. The amount of down-play DB receives here is agonizing.
Again you can't tell how fast it was going or what distance it went so being in one panel is irrelevant.

But it doesn't make any bigger a hole than that other beam would have it wouldn't do more damage with the same sized hole.

Deus Ex Machina he also got his neck snapped and hit by another shot and it did nothing, and at that point he was at 85%.
Plus it's human spirit energy which destroys demon energy, can't really have that advantage here considering there's nothing similar to both demon and spirit energy in DBZ so they can't both be there.


They are crappy they only pull off a handful of beams before they're exhausted only later on does Ki practically become an infinite resource due to plot.
So you think it would take minutes for that blast to cross to there? I bet at the very maximum a second/seconds passed by. Toguro isn't dodging it whatsoever.

Doesn't matter whether it makes a bigger hole or not. The potency of that attack is deadly and extremely huge. That's how you can differentiate between attacks. It's like saying Roshi's Kamehameha is more powerful than Piccolo's Makankosappo.

So what is his durability?

Wrong. Piccolo fired dozens of ki blasts at Goku in the beginning of their fight, and they showed no signs of exhaustion. Mind you the fight continued for hours until they were even tired.
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Pelador
May 25 2015, 12:49 AM
Yeah like I said, until the Deus Ex Machina, Yusuke's attacks just bounce off. Even his big ki blast did nothing. No one in Dragonball ever tanks an attack without blocking until Nappa.
Tao tanks KHH

Old King Piccolo Tanks KHH

Goku Fakes getting hurt by Piccolo's ki barrage.

And frankly hand-waving Yusuke's final attack as Dues Ex Machina doesn't seem right. The other blast's Yusuke pulled paled in comparison to the last since he went all out on the last one. Deus Ex Machina is a solution that comes out of nowhere for the sole purpose of helping the protagonist overcome an unsolvable problem. Not only was Yusuke stated/shown multiple times to be holding back during the first three shots (consciously for the 1st & 3rd and subconsciously for the 2nd) but he was also mentioned to have enough power to possibly beat Torguro.

There are three criteria that a situation must meet in order to be classified as Deus Ex Machina:

  • Deus Ex Machina are solutions. They are never unexpected developments that make things worse, nor sudden twists that only change the understanding of a story.

    This is the only qualification Yusuke's final attack meets. It was a solution to defeating Torguro.

  • Deus Ex Machina are sudden or unexpected. This means that even if they are featured or referenced earlier in the story, they do not change the course of nor appear to be a viable solution to the plotline they eventually "solve".

    This is were we hit a snag. More power was the only way to defeat Torguro and Yusuke was constantly being groomed since the end of the Rescue Yukina Arc, or rather the beginning of the Dark Tournament Arc if you will, to attain that power. Since it was foreshadowed constantly it's not unexpected and therefore doesn't meet this criteria.

  • The problem a Deus Ex Machina fixes must be portrayed as unsolvable or hopeless. If the problem could be solved with a bit of common sense or other type of simple intervention, the solution is not a Deus Ex Machina no matter how unexpected it may seem.

    This is another roadblock since the situation wasn't hopeless and there was a clear solution. Yusuke was gaining the upper-hand by the time they decide to take the DBZ route and go al out on the last attack, but it's been clear from the get-go that the best way to beat Torguro is to simply overpower him. Easier said than done, sure but it's a viable solution and one that Yusuke opted to use by concentrating all of his power into his last attack.


Yusuke overpowered him, plain and simple.

Steve
 
They are crappy they only pull off a handful of beams before they're exhausted only later on does Ki practically become an infinite resource due to plot.


Considering at that point Yusuke could only fire four shots a day before depleting his ki reserves you shouldn't call the Z-fighters reserves crappy. Hell in the final round of the 23rd Budokai Goku was spaming KHH not only as attacks but as means of maneuvering in mid-air. In the beginning stages of the fight Piccolo threw a barrage of ki blasts (at least six) at Goku and they were still capable of fighting at a higher level (since they were initially holding back) for hours.

IIRC the only time I remember someone being tired after firing a few ki beams was in the Pilaf Arc when Goku first learned Kamehameha.
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

It is Deus Ex Machina because there's no way Yusuke had much power left, pretty sure that was his last shot for the day anyway and Toguro powered up another 15% before being hit by it.

How the hell does he go from tanking one of them and then getting stronger to getting wrecked by an attack that at best could have been 50% more powerful than the last one?

It's Deus Ex Machina because Yusuke was granted the win because plot.
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Steve
May 27 2015, 01:07 AM
It is Deus Ex Machina because there's no way Yusuke had much power left,

Not only did Yusuke previously tank Torguro's punches he also practically rag-dolled him with a single punch. Something tells me that Yusuke still had a lot left in the tank.

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pretty sure that was his last shot for the day anyway


Last shot=/=weakest shot. Especially when he explicitly states that he's pouring everything he has into that last shot. Seriously watch any of his previous or subsequent fights in the series, I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a situation where that is applicable.

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and Toguro powered up another 15% before being hit by it.


And Yusuke gathered all of the energy he had which made his spirit gun stronger than what Torguro could handle even with the 15% boost. Still don't see what's wrong with that.

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How the hell does he go from tanking one of them and then getting stronger to getting wrecked by an attack that at best could have been 50% more powerful than the last one?


Probably because Yusuke held back on that 3rd shot (something he was capable of doing as far back as the Rescue Yunkina Arc) and just didn't concentrate as much energy as the last one.

Hell looking back on it now I'm not even sure if Yusuke's 3rd shot even hit Torguro in the first place and rather just missed on purpose to serve as a warning shot/show of strength. The hole it made is too far above him for me to accurately say that he tanked it. And two pages before hand Torguro was shocked at the sight of the blast which implies that it would've done some damage to him if it connected. And don't you think that it's wierd that Torguro has his neck bent of shape and was bleeding due to a punch but was perfectly fine after Yusuke's (supposedly) unsuppressed reigun which at the very least should be twice as strong as his punch?

And where are you getting 50% from?


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It's Deus Ex Machina because Yusuke was granted the win because plot.


So is every fight where a hero win Deus Ex Machina then? You could literally apply plot as the reason for someone wining a fight.

Your whole point revolves around Yusuke being exhausted/having low ki reserves when nothing indicates that he was close to being winded at the time of the final showdown. It's not Dues Ex Machina, there is a reason why Yusuke won, he was just stronger than Torguro. It was shown both before and after the final shot.
Edited by DSTREET45, May 27 2015, 09:13 AM.
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Yusuke was done but he got a rage boost when he thought that Kuwabara was dead. I suppose it's kind of like SSJ2 Gohan in a sense. Togoru was trying to draw it out of him just like Cell was with Gohan. He wasn't holding back since he didn't know how to draw out his extra power.

Deus Ex or not, that was a big blast that took out Toguru.


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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

Given that he can only fire the Spirit Gun five times a day yeah, he should have been low.
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May 27 2015, 11:36 AM
Yusuke was done but he got a rage boost when he thought that Kuwabara was dead. I suppose it's kind of like SSJ2 Gohan in a sense. Togoru was trying to draw it out of him just like Cell was with Gohan. He wasn't holding back since he didn't know how to draw out his extra power.

Deus Ex or not, that was a big blast that took out Toguru.
And it still doesn't make it Deus Ex Machina. Like your Gohan example, Yusuke's rage boost had occurred multiple times before his fight against Torguro (First fight with Hiei, fight with Rando, fight with Suzaku, fight against those mid controlled guys). In fact, in universe, it's an easily explainable reason for WHY a person had gotten stronger in the first place. Hell I'm pretty sure Genkai explained that Yusuke's power was dependent on his emotions or something like that.

Steve
 
Given that he can only fire the Spirit Gun five times a day yeah, he should have been low.


Four times (nitpicking on my part) and why? As I said earlier
me
 
Last shot=/=weakest shot. Especially when he explicitly states that he's pouring everything he has into that last shot. Seriously watch any of his previous or subsequent fights in the series, I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a situation where that is applicable.

Show me a situation when Yusuke was low in power because he was on his last shot. If there is one there's probably more that show otherwise.
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

Well, I would call not being able to fire more than one shot low on power since he shouldn't have more power to give really.
If he can't fire more shots he has no more power to put in to them, he's just not shown to be visibly exhausted afterwards he can still fight fine but any opponent he uses 5 shots on is probably the sort that would wreck him after he ran out.
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Steve
May 28 2015, 01:24 AM
Well, I would call not being able to fire more than one shot low on power since he shouldn't have more power to give really.
If he can't fire more shots he has no more power to put in to them, he's just not shown to be visibly exhausted afterwards he can still fight fine but any opponent he uses 5 shots on is probably the sort that would wreck him after he ran out.
Except that what happens consistently > what you think should happen. Yusuke never had a problem with firing a strong last shot, in fact, the last shot is usually the strongest. That's just the way it works in various forms of fiction DBZ, bleach, Rurouni Kenshin, Naruto etc.

I'd rather go by what Yusuke shows consistently.
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TheACE
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The hell has this made it four pages? Tuguro got vaporized by a Mountain Busting Spirit Gun (Mega-Version). Raditz slapped a Special Beam Cannon that vaped a mountain range away. Tuguro isn't DBZ Class, /Thread.
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FutureProtagonist
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Did spelling "Toguro" wrong somehow become a running gag in this thread?
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Raditz slapped a Special Beam Cannon that vaped a mountain range away
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but Raditz didn't slap anything away.
Edited by FutureProtagonist, May 28 2015, 05:17 AM.
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TheACE
May 28 2015, 05:08 AM
The hell has this made it four pages? Tuguro got vaporized by a Mountain Busting Spirit Gun (Mega-Version). Raditz slapped a Special Beam Cannon that vaped a mountain range away. Tuguro isn't DBZ Class, /Thread.
The Special Beam Cannon is far stronger than mere mountain level. Raditz tanked an attack from Piccolo that rivals destroying the moon. That specific attack's piercing abilities and concentration was extremely high (evident by the power level scanner from Raditz's scouter readings).

But if he lost to a mountain busting ki attack, then Roshi destroying the mountain early on is more than sufficient for this guy. Roshi didn't even intend to blow the mountain to begin with so yeah....regeneration ain't helping him if that's what he lost to.
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FutureProtagonist
May 28 2015, 05:14 AM
Did spelling "Toguro" wrong somehow become a running gag in this thread?
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Raditz slapped a Special Beam Cannon that vaped a mountain range away
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but Raditz didn't slap anything away.
It has :p
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Tuguro, Toguro, to-may-to to-maa-to. But seriously, does Genakai's demon boyfriend have any feat that even gives him a chance at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai? He said it himself, his powers are pretty dull, he has very little to nothing that makes him special.
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