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DBZf Debate League
Topic Started: May 12 2015, 10:57 PM (5,749 Views)
+ Sandy Shore
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FutureProtagonist
May 19 2015, 04:15 AM
If your position is well-sourced, articulated, and uncontradicted, most people will agree with you, and those that don't will almost certainly be able to entertain the idea. Debating is about convincing someone that your point of view is correct; if you utterly fail to do that, then you can't be a top debater, objectively. It's like saying you can't be a great salesman because no one is buying your product. Well obviously! Either there's an issue with the product, or you aren't a good salesman. Looping that metaphor back to DBZ, you could say the "product" is your opinion, and your skill is how well you articulate that opinion. If you're strong on both of those, the only thing preventing people from agreeing with you is bias, which speaking from personal experience, isn't a big issue around here.
If your position is well-sourced, articulated, and not contradicted, it doesn't mean there isn't still an issue with it. Even if the majority can't to see it. What your salesman analogy left out was the fact that you might not be able to sell the superior product for the simple fact that people are comfortable and content with what they already have. That is neither the fault of the salesman, or the product. It's an unfortunate obstacle.

If the opinion that seeks to challenge the status quo can not be disproved, makes sense and might be a more logical fit (objectively), it doesn't mean people are going to turn away from what they already believe - therefore the person defending the established notion.

Quote:
 
As for your opinion that a middle debater can't ever challenge a top debater? That's nonsense; it's been made pretty clear that this ranking system is something you can move up on.
So you can challenge someone who others have already decided are more competent than you are? Who's views and opinions already line up more with what they also believe, compared to you who got voted less competent? So that those who voted for you already may vote again? Those voted at the top are surely outed as champions of the majority.

It may be well earned, but it doesn't mean there isn't a personality or familiarity (of fact) bias. Please don't think I'm trying to attack you for whatever reason - it just so happened that the highest voted user challenged my dismissal of the system, is all. If it seems very personal, it's merely an accident.

Currently, as you know, I'm debating the nature of the "Full Power" Super Saiyan form. There is clearly personal bias from everyone who looks at the concept, and how it works exactly, so why don't I challenge you in formulating a convincing argument for how it works, and letting the people vote on which fits better? Despite your social and familiarity bias. Given your first post in the thread, it would seem you don't like to think of it the same way as I'm currently considering it.
Edited by Sandy Shore, May 21 2015, 03:58 PM.
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+ Yusuke
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A debate about debating the criteria of how debaters should be ranked on a debate thread... :o
Edited by Yusuke, May 19 2015, 05:23 AM.
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+ Sandy Shore
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Yusuke
May 19 2015, 05:23 AM
A debate about debating the criteria of how debaters should be ranked on a debate thread... :o
Is that a good way to prove one's debating abilities?
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+ Yusuke
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Xera
May 19 2015, 05:25 AM
Yusuke
May 19 2015, 05:23 AM
A debate about debating the criteria of how debaters should be ranked on a debate thread... :o
Is that a good way to prove one's debating abilities?
IDK man, i'm just observing what's going on in this thread. :)

Though I do trust the insight of the members that give their opinions here for the most part. I would be a casual scrub when it comes to DBZ if it weren't for people like KP, SS, and Brofist.
Edited by Yusuke, May 19 2015, 05:32 AM.
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StrawHatCrew
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Yusuke
May 19 2015, 05:32 AM
Xera
May 19 2015, 05:25 AM
Yusuke
May 19 2015, 05:23 AM
A debate about debating the criteria of how debaters should be ranked on a debate thread... :o
Is that a good way to prove one's debating abilities?
IDK man, i'm just observing what's going on in this thread. :)

Though I do trust the insight of the members that give their opinions here for the most part. I would be a casual scrub when it comes to DBZ if it weren't for people like KP, SS, and Brofist.
You forgot the greatest of all time. :o

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+ Yusuke
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StrawHatCrew
May 19 2015, 05:35 AM
Yusuke
May 19 2015, 05:32 AM
Xera
May 19 2015, 05:25 AM
Yusuke
May 19 2015, 05:23 AM
A debate about debating the criteria of how debaters should be ranked on a debate thread... :o
Is that a good way to prove one's debating abilities?
IDK man, i'm just observing what's going on in this thread. :)

Though I do trust the insight of the members that give their opinions here for the most part. I would be a casual scrub when it comes to DBZ if it weren't for people like KP, SS, and Brofist.
You forgot the greatest of all time. :o

Spoiler: click to toggle
Ahh of course, I wouldn't be nearly as knowledgeable in Broly threads if it weren't for him. May his legacy live on forever... :)
Edited by Yusuke, May 19 2015, 05:37 AM.
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StrawHatCrew
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Yusuke
May 19 2015, 05:36 AM
StrawHatCrew
May 19 2015, 05:35 AM
Yusuke
May 19 2015, 05:32 AM
Xera
May 19 2015, 05:25 AM
Yusuke
May 19 2015, 05:23 AM
A debate about debating the criteria of how debaters should be ranked on a debate thread... :o
Is that a good way to prove one's debating abilities?
IDK man, i'm just observing what's going on in this thread. :)

Though I do trust the insight of the members that give their opinions here for the most part. I would be a casual scrub when it comes to DBZ if it weren't for people like KP, SS, and Brofist.
You forgot the greatest of all time. :o

Spoiler: click to toggle
Ahh of course, I wouldn't be nearly as knowledgeable in Broly threads if it weren't for him. May his legacy live on forever... :)
R.I.P to the living legend. :'(

http://dbzf.co.uk/profile/4104856/
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+ Havoc_Wreaker
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Popcorn

top debaters tier doesn't make sense
how can one know ''everything''
its like the tier is synonymous with having a god complex for the series
i doubt even AT would put himself there lol
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FutureProtagonist
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Quwrof Wrlccywrlir

Quote:
 
It may be well earned, but it doesn't mean there isn't a personality or familiarity (of fact) bias. Please don't think I'm trying to attack you for whatever reason - it just so happened that the highest voted user challenged my dismissal of the system, is all. If it seems very personal, it's merely an accident.

Currently, as you know, I'm debating the nature of the "Full Power" Super Saiyan form. There is clearly personal bias from everyone who looks at the concept, and how it works exactly, so why don't I challenge you in formulating a convincing argument for how it works exactly, and letting the people vote on which fits better? Despite your social and familiarity bias. Given your first post in the thread, it would seem you don't like to think of it the same way as I'm currently considering it.
I never thought you were attacking me personally, though I felt I was included in a group that you were unreasonably attacking.

Of course I have bias towards my point of view. I wouldn't have that point of view if I didn't. You have the same bias. If you put out a point that I have no counter for, I'll reconsider, but you haven't. I'm going to argue my point of view until you convince me otherwise. The same goes for you, the same goes for all of us.
Quote:
 
So you can challenge someone who others have already decided are more competent than you are? Who's views and opinions already line up more with what they also believe, compared to you who got voted less competent? So that those who voted for you already may vote again? Those voted at the top are surely outed as champions of the majority.
Of course you can! It is possible to make yourself more competent and convince those people that you're the more competent one now. You can work to surpass people who are better than you at whatever it is. If the people who know the most right now can never be challenged, what's the point of teaching anybody anything? What's the point of learning? What is so bizarre about this to you? I simply don't get it. Maybe I'm less skilled than Bob over there at Calculus, but what if I read ten calculus books and work at it? Can I never be better than Bob just because he's better than me now?
Edited by FutureProtagonist, May 19 2015, 06:18 AM.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

While you people are having your ...ahem...debate in here, don't forget to cast the votes as well.

Also, anyone who asks to be ranked, just say so and I'll put you name on it. There isn't any kind of limit to this.
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+ Emmeth
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I Yoeri

And please don't discuss banned people in a thread like this.
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+ Sandy Shore
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FutureProtagonist
May 19 2015, 05:52 AM
Of course I have bias towards my point of view. I wouldn't have that point of view if I didn't. You have the same bias. If you put out a point that I have no counter for, I'll reconsider, but you haven't. I'm going to argue my point of view until you convince me otherwise. The same goes for you, the same goes for all of us.
The bias I was talking about wouldn't be your own towards to an explanation, but others towards the person giving the explanation or the explanation that others are giving. If they already consider your word more reliable, or they also hold the same view, then they will get the most votes.

If you walked into a room where people were insisting there was a genuine painting by Rembrandt on the wall---because they always had insisted---and you come in pointing out why it can not possibly be genuine, for X amount of reasons, then someone defends why it absolutely is, for X amount of reasons, and then you took a vote to decide the validity of the painting: which do you think will get more votes? It doesn't matter if the painting is genuine or not; the very scenario dictates that the people will vote that it is, whether it is or isn't.

As for me putting forth a point that you have a counter for: what's the worth of your counter? That you can muster a reason to disagree doesn't therefore make me wrong - and vice versa. Is it that others deemed you more capable at debating, and as such your word more truth? It certainly carries more weight.

Quote:
 
You can work to surpass people who are better than you at whatever it is. If the people who know the most right now can never be challenged, what's the point of teaching anybody anything? What's the point of learning? What is so bizarre about this to you? I simply don't get it. Maybe I'm less skilled than Bob over there at Calculus, but what if I read ten calculus books and work at it? Can I never be better than Bob just because he's better than me now?
I never said otherwise, but it's not a case of surpassing Bob; it's a case of people voting on whether you've surpassed Bob or not. To be better than Bob at calculus you would be objectively judged against a set of questions and answers that is unanimously agreed upon. The point isn't to change anyone's mind as to what the answer should be---always an enormous task---but simply show that you agree with the answer.

This isn't a contest of one's debating ability, but rather how closely one lines up to the majority opinion. If this were a contest of one's ability to debate, then the opposite view would be welcome---if not encouraged---to judge how convincingly one can build a case using the material. Subjectivity is still a hindrance, but you're more free from the established majority if the criteria isn't part of agreeing with them.

The more people you agree with, the more popular you are - popularity contest. Yes, you may also be right.
Edited by Sandy Shore, May 19 2015, 02:25 PM.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

There's nothing you can do about bias. A good debater can back up their reasoning. It's as simple as that. Most of the members here will gladly be able to change opinions if given the right information. Tons of people were absolutely certain that Gohan was only an SSJ in Movie 10. But then we got actual images to compare and we could easily see that Movie 10 Gohan took his exact reference from SSJ2 Gohan from the Boo Arc. It was a huge game changer.

The same thing happen way in the past. Back in the days when people only had the fan translations and stuff, that's all we could use. Then Herms, Kazenshuu and what not came around, started getting the actual information together and we finally got some real stuff that we didn't have to half guess on. As time goes on, we get more and more information.

Opinion and popularity only make up a small part of this. The majority boils down to what you know and how you know it. There's nothing you can do about it unless you can turn the other side's point of view. Yes people are going to vote on you, that's how it goes. Debates are kind of like a democracy. The majority vote wins. If you can't turn the other sides points of view, then you lose, it's that simple.
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@ Yondaime

A top debater isn't someone who knows everything. They're someone who has an intrinsic knowledge on each subject. They know where to find information on Dragon Ball, Z, GT, movies, Translations, etc. This has gotten easier because we've managed to get a lot of information into a single place like the Strength Checkers. But even the Strength Checkers can only go so far.

Here's an example.

A "Upper" Debater will go to the Strength Checker to see some facts on Tao Pai Pai. A "Top" level debater will have done the same thing and have read the manga too. Same thing with any other issue. It's that extra step that they take along with being quite knowledgeable.

I could just bring a Strength Checker quote on Hirudengard. That easily makes me knowledgeable. But a Top level debater would have seen the movie, could tell you the specific expressions that might have been made. I could explain the difference between the dub and original Japanese and all that. That's the difference between them.

More so, a Top Level debater is someone who will never decline a challenge because they feel they don't know enough about it.
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+ Pyrus
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A Level 1 debater will not only take information from the Strength Checker, but will also support it with context from which it's called from whether it be the manga, anime, or movies. A Level 2 debater may only take a line from the Strength Checker and present it by itself with no surrounding context and believe that to be sufficient.

The levels are arbitrary for the point I'm attempting to make.
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Fearless Saiyajin
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Legendary of Super Saiyan

This is ridiculous, debating about "How or What is a good debater" jus ruined this thread.
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