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| DBZf Debate League | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 12 2015, 10:57 PM (5,750 Views) | |
| FutureProtagonist | May 19 2015, 01:45 AM Post #46 |
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Quwrof Wrlccywrlir
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Thanks for the votes, guys. I wouldn't have awarded myself the rank, but, appreciated. Saiyan - Elite Warrior Pros: Generally knowledgeable and has made plenty of good arguments. Cons: Believes Ten > Krillin and quite a few other views that I disagree with, but I can accept that. SaiyanXjin5 Elite Warrior - 1 |
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| + Six Trails | May 19 2015, 01:51 AM Post #47 |
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Is it too late to be in this |
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| lazerbem | May 19 2015, 01:54 AM Post #48 |
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Saiyan gets elite warrior status indeed. He's generally quite good at remembering things, but there is several times when he's stumbled up |
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| + Sandy Shore | May 19 2015, 02:33 AM Post #49 |
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This doesn't strike me as a scale of debating ability, so much as it's "those who most closely follow every statement and established fact, and use it to assert those very things". If someone says that Gotenks appears to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan (not my opinion) because of X, Y, and Zed, and someone else says "but here are the facts (copy and paste from strength checker)", and never stray with their own interpretation or reasoning of such, well, that's not someone who is an impressive debater so much as it's a person who has more knowledge of the provided information, and supply it. In this scenario, you're either wrong Certainly, someone with more knowledge would be better at engaging in debates, but when there is no need for interpretation they need only state what is already known; free thinking or sound reasoning is not necessary - nor desired. Now you have your God of Destruction That is, unless they're not the best source for the right answer, and you merely like the person and their posts in comparison to others. Isn't this just a popularity contest, then? |
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| FutureProtagonist | May 19 2015, 02:48 AM Post #50 |
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Quwrof Wrlccywrlir
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Who said DBZ debating was just reading the strength checker? I suggest you stick around here longer before making a bunch of assumptions and indicting someone based on them.
Edited by FutureProtagonist, May 19 2015, 02:49 AM.
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| lazerbem | May 19 2015, 02:50 AM Post #51 |
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The problem is that this is one of the more quantifiable ways to rank someone. If you do it based on skill when defending their view point and how well they articulate their points, things become more ambigous. For example, a fanboy could be considered a good debater for their dogged fanboyism and unwillingness to budge on their point. You could call someone whose opinion is flexible to be a good debater because they can see when someone else is right. But if you have another method of judging, by all means, say it @FutureProtagonist Try to play nice Edited by lazerbem, May 19 2015, 02:52 AM.
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| FutureProtagonist | May 19 2015, 02:58 AM Post #52 |
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Quwrof Wrlccywrlir
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This line is steaming my carrots pretty badly. Making this assertion about myself and the rest of us is ignorant, unfair, and unnecessarily contentious. |
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| + Emmeth | May 19 2015, 03:14 AM Post #53 |
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I ♥ Yoeri
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Yeah, we don't choose topics like "Gotenks could be stronger than Gohan because...", we choose more ambigious topics that hasn't been 100% established by author or otherwise (Daizenshuu if you so will). |
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| EMIYA | May 19 2015, 03:38 AM Post #54 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Opinion only go so far and a debate utilizes as much factual evidence as possible. In fact it shouldn't be used at all. What should be used is the straight up facts, statements and implications given in the manga. Those can be used to build up on certain points of views. There are things that have distinctive answers. Canon-wise, Super Boo will always be stronger than Kid Boo. You can make as much conjecture of what kind of gap that is, but the fact that a significant gap remains will not change. Good debaters not only know this information both in and outside of the manga but know how to properly use it to get their point across. |
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| + Sandy Shore | May 19 2015, 03:40 AM Post #55 |
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It's not necessary for me to stick around any longer to form an opinion on a method of doing something. In this case, ranking people's ability to debate - therefore the worth of their opinions over others. Nor did I say it was just a matter of reading a strength checker, but rather as much of the published material as possible. The specified criteria for this thread states: while the lower debaters are said to be: therefore they are trumped by those voted above, and: who are trumped by all those above - as popular opinion dictates. If two people know all of the sources, but interpret them differently, then which is the better debater? Could it be the one who fills in the gaps themselves with supposed logic? Or the one who refuses to accept anything that isn't explicitly stated, even if contradicted by supposed logic? Surely the one who gets more votes will then be the who holds the opinion most others hold - even if the opposite or neither opinion are actually "true". Someone who is generally perceived as a "fanboy" might hold the right, though unpopular, opinion. Their status as a "fanboy" might simply be their contrarian opinion, even if they truly hold no bias and might be right. While on the other hand, a person who shows flexibility may appear to be more level headed, but it might be that they simply have less conviction and faith in what they generally perceive as the "truth". Subjectivity. I don't think there is a way of judging one's ability to debate, when impressive debating is the ability to prove your position as superior, yet the superior position would be a matter of "most agreed upon answer". The person who gets the most votes will inevitably be the person who holds the least contrarian and most widely held views. Once you've decided that their opinion matters more, due to their superior knowledge on the material, how could you ever disagree with them again? You've decided they're smarter, and a higher authority than you or others. No matter how well articulated and sourced your position is, you can't be a "top debater" when no one agrees with your take on something, can you? |
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| + Pyrus | May 19 2015, 03:50 AM Post #56 |
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Well, until Toriyama says otherwise and actually provides reasons we didn't think worked until he said it. It could be one of those things. |
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| + Pyrus | May 19 2015, 03:54 AM Post #57 |
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I agree with your very last passage. It's true to a T. Double post because...M. Night Shamalan. |
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| POOHEAD189 | May 19 2015, 04:11 AM Post #58 |
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If it's not too late, I'll join. |
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| FutureProtagonist | May 19 2015, 04:15 AM Post #59 |
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Quwrof Wrlccywrlir
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If your position is well-sourced, articulated, and uncontradicted, most people will agree with you, and those that don't will almost certainly be able to entertain the idea. Debating is about convincing someone that your point of view is correct; if you utterly fail to do that, then you can't be a top debater, objectively. It's like saying you can't be a great salesman because no one is buying your product. Well obviously! Either there's an issue with the product, or you aren't a good salesman. Looping that metaphor back to DBZ, you could say the "product" is your opinion, and your skill is how well you articulate that opinion. If you're strong on both of those, the only thing preventing people from agreeing with you is bias, which speaking from personal experience, isn't a big issue around here. As for your opinion that a middle debater can't ever challenge a top debater? That's nonsense; it's been made pretty clear that this ranking system is something you can move up on. If I had been voted on by these guys a week after I joined, I'd get a forceful and deserved servant title. By improving your knowledge of the series and by making points that people agree with (that's how they judge debate tournaments), you can defeat top tier debaters, even if the top debater knows that Toriyama clipped his toenails on January 23rd, 1992, and you don't. Edited by FutureProtagonist, May 19 2015, 04:19 AM.
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| POOHEAD189 | May 19 2015, 04:21 AM Post #60 |
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I can mostly agree with that, but I feel like a lot of people see very objective things in a very concrete manner here. While we should definitely analyze the story, we tend to forget that dialogue is not only meant to give off information, but characterization. Meaning, statements by characters are usually true but there can be exceptions, and I feel like the past year people tend to see it differently than that. And I'm a firm believer in Manga > Toriyama interviews when it comes to information. But either way it's up to the judges, those are just my 2 cents. |
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