Why Gohan can use Super Saiyajin

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Why Gohan can use Super Saiyajin
Tweet Topic Started: Apr 27 2015, 01:34 AM (3,438 Views)
+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans	Apr 28 2015, 10:51 PM Post #46
魔王子 Posts: 9,797 Group: Elite Member Member #10,492 Joined: November 16, 2013 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Vertical Apr 28 2015, 10:46 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 10:37 PM He said he wrote it as if the manga's serialization had continued: Kanzenshuu I tried thinking up an original story, imagining it as though [the manga’s] serialization had continued. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-of-gods-promotional-pamphlet-2-akira-toriyama/ If this were actually accurate though... in order to be a continuation... wouldn't it have to take place beyond Uub/Goku's departure? Also, original story? He was given a script written by someone else and... though he heavily edited it... it still contains key concepts presented in the original script. A bit nitpicky don't you think? You're over-analyzing a statement made by Toriyama... And technically, with as much he edited, I wouldn't hesitate to call it an original story.
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* Yu Narukami	Apr 28 2015, 10:59 PM Post #47
Izanagi! Posts: 12,330 Group: Retired Staff Member #6,446 Joined: July 3, 2011 Gender Not Specified Country None	Makes you question how valid #17 and #18 are as villains. Given that Toriyama initially intended #19 and #20 to be the Androids that Trunks spoke of, and only changed course because one of his editors (iirc) told him that they looked too silly to be the main antagonists, it's an interesting question of whether #17 and #18 are as valid as the others due to the fact that Toriyama probably had to come up with them in a very short amount of time.



sekzee	Apr 28 2015, 11:06 PM Post #48
Posts: 1,336 Group: Member Member #11,101 Joined: March 25, 2014 Gender Not Specified What Browser do you use? Firefaux Favourite Manga Nein	Nagito Komaeda Apr 28 2015, 10:59 PM Makes you question how valid #17 and #18 are as villains. Given that Toriyama initially intended #19 and #20 to be the Androids that Trunks spoke of, and only changed course because one of his editors (iirc) told him that they looked too silly to be the main antagonists, it's an interesting question of whether #17 and #18 are as valid as the others due to the fact that Toriyama probably had to come up with them in a very short amount of time. All of my what.



Vertical	Apr 28 2015, 11:11 PM Post #49
Posts: 2,542 Group: Member Member #8,475 Joined: October 27, 2012	ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 10:51 PM Vertical Apr 28 2015, 10:46 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 10:37 PM He said he wrote it as if the manga's serialization had continued: Kanzenshuu I tried thinking up an original story, imagining it as though [the manga’s] serialization had continued. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-of-gods-promotional-pamphlet-2-akira-toriyama/ If this were actually accurate though... in order to be a continuation... wouldn't it have to take place beyond Uub/Goku's departure? Also, original story? He was given a script written by someone else and... though he heavily edited it... it still contains key concepts presented in the original script. A bit nitpicky don't you think? You're over-analyzing a statement made by Toriyama... And technically, with as much he edited, I wouldn't hesitate to call it an original story. I'm not sure I can agree with you on this one. The statement is pretty clear... "as though the manga's serialization had continued"... it seems very out of place for such a thought to lead someone to "7 years before the final chapter". Also... it's the pink elephant scenario... as original as his story might be... it's still corrupted by the pink elephants.
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans	Apr 28 2015, 11:13 PM Post #50
魔王子 Posts: 9,797 Group: Elite Member Member #10,492 Joined: November 16, 2013 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Vertical Apr 28 2015, 11:11 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 10:51 PM Vertical Apr 28 2015, 10:46 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 10:37 PM He said he wrote it as if the manga's serialization had continued: Kanzenshuu I tried thinking up an original story, imagining it as though [the manga’s] serialization had continued. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-of-gods-promotional-pamphlet-2-akira-toriyama/ If this were actually accurate though... in order to be a continuation... wouldn't it have to take place beyond Uub/Goku's departure? Also, original story? He was given a script written by someone else and... though he heavily edited it... it still contains key concepts presented in the original script. A bit nitpicky don't you think? You're over-analyzing a statement made by Toriyama... And technically, with as much he edited, I wouldn't hesitate to call it an original story. I'm not sure I can agree with you on this one. The statement is pretty clear... "as though the manga's serialization had continued"... it seems very out of place for such a thought to lead someone to "7 years before the final chapter". Also... it's the pink elephant scenario... as original as his story might be... it's still corrupted by the pink elephants. If you wanted to get technical, he could continue the serialization through the years remaining between Boo and the end of Z. Beyond that though, I think it's pretty clear what the intended meaning of this statement is. Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Apr 28 2015, 11:15 PM.
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Vertical	Apr 28 2015, 11:14 PM Post #51
Posts: 2,542 Group: Member Member #8,475 Joined: October 27, 2012	sekzee Apr 28 2015, 11:06 PM Nagito Komaeda Apr 28 2015, 10:59 PM Makes you question how valid #17 and #18 are as villains. Given that Toriyama initially intended #19 and #20 to be the Androids that Trunks spoke of, and only changed course because one of his editors (iirc) told him that they looked too silly to be the main antagonists, it's an interesting question of whether #17 and #18 are as valid as the others due to the fact that Toriyama probably had to come up with them in a very short amount of time. All of my what. #19 and #20 were supposed to be the "big bads" of that arc. Toriyama's friend (previously his editor) laughed them off and asked when the real villains would arrive. He did the same for #17, #18. He also encouraged that Semi-Perfect Cell hurry up and achieve perfection... because of how he looked.
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Vertical	Apr 28 2015, 11:25 PM Post #52
Posts: 2,542 Group: Member Member #8,475 Joined: October 27, 2012	ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 11:13 PM Vertical Apr 28 2015, 11:11 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 10:51 PM Vertical Apr 28 2015, 10:46 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 10:37 PM He said he wrote it as if the manga's serialization had continued: Kanzenshuu I tried thinking up an original story, imagining it as though [the manga’s] serialization had continued. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-of-gods-promotional-pamphlet-2-akira-toriyama/ If this were actually accurate though... in order to be a continuation... wouldn't it have to take place beyond Uub/Goku's departure? Also, original story? He was given a script written by someone else and... though he heavily edited it... it still contains key concepts presented in the original script. A bit nitpicky don't you think? You're over-analyzing a statement made by Toriyama... And technically, with as much he edited, I wouldn't hesitate to call it an original story. I'm not sure I can agree with you on this one. The statement is pretty clear... "as though the manga's serialization had continued"... it seems very out of place for such a thought to lead someone to "7 years before the final chapter". Also... it's the pink elephant scenario... as original as his story might be... it's still corrupted by the pink elephants. If you wanted to get technical, he could continue the serialization through the years remaining between Boo and the end of Z. Beyond that though, I think it's pretty clear what the intended meaning of this statement is. So the serialzation would have "continued" by launching a series consisting entirely of flashbacks? What do you believe the intended meaning is? Because I can only see the statement not being reflective of the results... Edited by Vertical, Apr 28 2015, 11:26 PM.
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Raiken	Apr 28 2015, 11:31 PM Post #53
Posts: 454 Group: Member Member #7,460 Joined: March 20, 2012 Favourite Anime Naruto Shippuden What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Naruto	Vertical Apr 28 2015, 10:46 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 10:37 PM He said he wrote it as if the manga's serialization had continued: Kanzenshuu I tried thinking up an original story, imagining it as though [the manga’s] serialization had continued. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-of-gods-promotional-pamphlet-2-akira-toriyama/ If this were actually accurate though... in order to be a continuation... wouldn't it have to take place beyond Uub/Goku's departure? Also, original story? He was given a script written by someone else and... though he heavily edited it... it still contains key concepts presented in the original script. Exactly. Toei did all of it. They went to Akira. "Erm Mr Akira sir, can you please totally pass this off as canon, make a few changes as you please, and we will give you dolla dolla dolla." BoG/RoF is the work of Toei, with some Akira influence. It's not his true work, hence why the Manga Canon should be considered a separate canon. Edited by Raiken, Apr 28 2015, 11:32 PM.



+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans	Apr 28 2015, 11:35 PM Post #54
魔王子 Posts: 9,797 Group: Elite Member Member #10,492 Joined: November 16, 2013 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Vertical Apr 28 2015, 11:25 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 11:13 PM Vertical Apr 28 2015, 11:11 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 10:51 PM Vertical Apr 28 2015, 10:46 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 10:37 PM He said he wrote it as if the manga's serialization had continued: Kanzenshuu I tried thinking up an original story, imagining it as though [the manga’s] serialization had continued. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-of-gods-promotional-pamphlet-2-akira-toriyama/ If this were actually accurate though... in order to be a continuation... wouldn't it have to take place beyond Uub/Goku's departure? Also, original story? He was given a script written by someone else and... though he heavily edited it... it still contains key concepts presented in the original script. A bit nitpicky don't you think? You're over-analyzing a statement made by Toriyama... And technically, with as much he edited, I wouldn't hesitate to call it an original story. I'm not sure I can agree with you on this one. The statement is pretty clear... "as though the manga's serialization had continued"... it seems very out of place for such a thought to lead someone to "7 years before the final chapter". Also... it's the pink elephant scenario... as original as his story might be... it's still corrupted by the pink elephants. If you wanted to get technical, he could continue the serialization through the years remaining between Boo and the end of Z. Beyond that though, I think it's pretty clear what the intended meaning of this statement is. So the serialzation would have "continued" by launching a series consisting entirely of flashbacks? What do you believe the intended meaning is? Because I can only see the statement not being reflective of the results... No, it just continues where Boo left off... It can lead into an event and still be considered a continuation. As for Toriyama's statement, it clearly means he wrote this as if it was part of the manga.
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Raiken	Apr 28 2015, 11:40 PM Post #55
Posts: 454 Group: Member Member #7,460 Joined: March 20, 2012 Favourite Anime Naruto Shippuden What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Naruto	Vertical Apr 28 2015, 11:11 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 10:51 PM Vertical Apr 28 2015, 10:46 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 10:37 PM He said he wrote it as if the manga's serialization had continued: Kanzenshuu I tried thinking up an original story, imagining it as though [the manga’s] serialization had continued. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-of-gods-promotional-pamphlet-2-akira-toriyama/ If this were actually accurate though... in order to be a continuation... wouldn't it have to take place beyond Uub/Goku's departure? Also, original story? He was given a script written by someone else and... though he heavily edited it... it still contains key concepts presented in the original script. A bit nitpicky don't you think? You're over-analyzing a statement made by Toriyama... And technically, with as much he edited, I wouldn't hesitate to call it an original story. I'm not sure I can agree with you on this one. The statement is pretty clear... "as though the manga's serialization had continued"... it seems very out of place for such a thought to lead someone to "7 years before the final chapter". Also... it's the pink elephant scenario... as original as his story might be... it's still corrupted by the pink elephants. I can't help but feel that if Akira Toriyama did really sit down and carry on the Manga from where it left off, without outside influence. It would have been very different to what we got in Battle of Gods / Revival of F. Edited by Raiken, Apr 28 2015, 11:41 PM.



+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans	Apr 28 2015, 11:40 PM Post #56
魔王子 Posts: 9,797 Group: Elite Member Member #10,492 Joined: November 16, 2013 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Raiken Apr 28 2015, 11:31 PM Vertical Apr 28 2015, 10:46 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 10:37 PM He said he wrote it as if the manga's serialization had continued: Kanzenshuu I tried thinking up an original story, imagining it as though [the manga’s] serialization had continued. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-of-gods-promotional-pamphlet-2-akira-toriyama/ If this were actually accurate though... in order to be a continuation... wouldn't it have to take place beyond Uub/Goku's departure? Also, original story? He was given a script written by someone else and... though he heavily edited it... it still contains key concepts presented in the original script. Exactly. Toei did all of it. They went to Akira. "Erm Mr Akira sir, can you please totally pass this off as canon, make a few changes as you please, and we will give you dolla dolla dolla." BoG/RoF is the work of Toei, with some Akira influence. It's not his true work, hence why the Manga Canon should be considered a separate canon. No, Toei gave Toriyama the script, he rewrote it, and considers it part of his story. You can sit here and nitpick all day, but the fact remains, you're just looking for an excuse to ignore it because it doesn't portray Gohan to your liking. Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Apr 28 2015, 11:41 PM.
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Raiken	Apr 28 2015, 11:42 PM Post #57
Posts: 454 Group: Member Member #7,460 Joined: March 20, 2012 Favourite Anime Naruto Shippuden What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Naruto	ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 11:40 PM Raiken Apr 28 2015, 11:31 PM Vertical Apr 28 2015, 10:46 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 10:37 PM He said he wrote it as if the manga's serialization had continued: Kanzenshuu I tried thinking up an original story, imagining it as though [the manga’s] serialization had continued. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-of-gods-promotional-pamphlet-2-akira-toriyama/ If this were actually accurate though... in order to be a continuation... wouldn't it have to take place beyond Uub/Goku's departure? Also, original story? He was given a script written by someone else and... though he heavily edited it... it still contains key concepts presented in the original script. Exactly. Toei did all of it. They went to Akira. "Erm Mr Akira sir, can you please totally pass this off as canon, make a few changes as you please, and we will give you dolla dolla dolla." BoG/RoF is the work of Toei, with some Akira influence. It's not his true work, hence why the Manga Canon should be considered a separate canon. No, Toei gave Toriyama the script, he rewrote it, and considers it part of his story. You can sit here and nitpick all day, but the fact remains, you're just looking for an excuse to ignore it because it doesn't portray Gohan to your liking. The horrible treatment, retconning and inconsistencies concerning Gohan is but one of many issues these new films have.



+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans	Apr 28 2015, 11:46 PM Post #58
魔王子 Posts: 9,797 Group: Elite Member Member #10,492 Joined: November 16, 2013 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Raiken Apr 28 2015, 11:42 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 11:40 PM Raiken Apr 28 2015, 11:31 PM Vertical Apr 28 2015, 10:46 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 10:37 PM He said he wrote it as if the manga's serialization had continued: Kanzenshuu I tried thinking up an original story, imagining it as though [the manga’s] serialization had continued. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-of-gods-promotional-pamphlet-2-akira-toriyama/ If this were actually accurate though... in order to be a continuation... wouldn't it have to take place beyond Uub/Goku's departure? Also, original story? He was given a script written by someone else and... though he heavily edited it... it still contains key concepts presented in the original script. Exactly. Toei did all of it. They went to Akira. "Erm Mr Akira sir, can you please totally pass this off as canon, make a few changes as you please, and we will give you dolla dolla dolla." BoG/RoF is the work of Toei, with some Akira influence. It's not his true work, hence why the Manga Canon should be considered a separate canon. No, Toei gave Toriyama the script, he rewrote it, and considers it part of his story. You can sit here and nitpick all day, but the fact remains, you're just looking for an excuse to ignore it because it doesn't portray Gohan to your liking. The horrible treatment, retconning and inconsistencies concerning Gohan is but one of many issues these new films have. What retcons and inconsistencies would those be? What's more, you act as though these things don't exist in the manga itself. The stuff people choose to complain about is becoming more and more trivial...
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-Freeman	Apr 28 2015, 11:58 PM Post #59
I think I need a doctor Posts: 539 Group: Member Member #7,814 Joined: June 23, 2012 Gender Male Country Canada	Raiken Apr 28 2015, 11:31 PM Vertical Apr 28 2015, 10:46 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 10:37 PM He said he wrote it as if the manga's serialization had continued: Kanzenshuu I tried thinking up an original story, imagining it as though [the manga’s] serialization had continued. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-of-gods-promotional-pamphlet-2-akira-toriyama/ If this were actually accurate though... in order to be a continuation... wouldn't it have to take place beyond Uub/Goku's departure? Also, original story? He was given a script written by someone else and... though he heavily edited it... it still contains key concepts presented in the original script. Exactly. Toei did all of it. They went to Akira. "Erm Mr Akira sir, can you please totally pass this off as canon, make a few changes as you please, and we will give you dolla dolla dolla." BoG/RoF is the work of Toei, with some Akira influence. It's not his true work, hence why the Manga Canon should be considered a separate canon. The term used was actually "dorra dorra dorra". Racist joke: check. Anyway it's ok, I fully agree Akira sees the new films and the new series as canon, just as I always thought he thinks the anime adaptations of DB and DBZ are also canon. I doubt he even cares much about this at all. The thing is, we as fans, have always looked at the manga as the one true canon source of information, and if something in the anime contradicted that, we always kept with the information in the manga as the correct one. Now something in the movie contradicts the manga, not just a nitpick either, the whole Mystic Gohan and Dance Fusion arc is down the toilet if Goku is more powerful than Gohan and Gotenks. Therefore I will keep doing what I've always did, and keep the manga as the correct source of information, meaning Mystic Gohan is the most powerful unfused character of the series, and Gotenks is stronger than Goku. Gohan isn't even my favourite character either, so you can't call me out for any bias or anything.



Vertical	Apr 29 2015, 12:18 AM Post #60
Posts: 2,542 Group: Member Member #8,475 Joined: October 27, 2012	ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 11:35 PM Vertical Apr 28 2015, 11:25 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 11:13 PM Vertical Apr 28 2015, 11:11 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 10:51 PM Vertical Apr 28 2015, 10:46 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Apr 28 2015, 10:37 PM He said he wrote it as if the manga's serialization had continued: Kanzenshuu I tried thinking up an original story, imagining it as though [the manga’s] serialization had continued. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-of-gods-promotional-pamphlet-2-akira-toriyama/ If this were actually accurate though... in order to be a continuation... wouldn't it have to take place beyond Uub/Goku's departure? Also, original story? He was given a script written by someone else and... though he heavily edited it... it still contains key concepts presented in the original script. A bit nitpicky don't you think? You're over-analyzing a statement made by Toriyama... And technically, with as much he edited, I wouldn't hesitate to call it an original story. I'm not sure I can agree with you on this one. The statement is pretty clear... "as though the manga's serialization had continued"... it seems very out of place for such a thought to lead someone to "7 years before the final chapter". Also... it's the pink elephant scenario... as original as his story might be... it's still corrupted by the pink elephants. If you wanted to get technical, he could continue the serialization through the years remaining between Boo and the end of Z. Beyond that though, I think it's pretty clear what the intended meaning of this statement is. So the serialzation would have "continued" by launching a series consisting entirely of flashbacks? What do you believe the intended meaning is? Because I can only see the statement not being reflective of the results... No, it just continues where Boo left off... It can lead into an event and still be considered a continuation. As for Toriyama's statement, it clearly means he wrote this as if it was part of the manga. Except that Buu isn't where the series left off... Uub is. If the manga had continued, clearly it would have continued from the point it ended with. Unless we were to argue that if the manga had continued, then the whole Uub thing would not have been written to begin with... Either way, I understand the intent behind the statement... I just can't see the results as living up to that intent. It seems to me the near 20 year gap between the end of the manga and the scripting of BoG had an obvious impact... as did the fact that Toriyama was editing a pre-existing script. I suppose the question becomes "How much does authors intent matter to you"
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