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- Why Gohan can use Super Saiyajin
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| Why Gohan can use Super Saiyajin | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 27 2015, 01:34 AM (3,440 Views) | |
| sekzee | Apr 27 2015, 07:51 PM Post #16 |
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Because people are trying to claim that it is simply a yell, while we see this done time and time again throughout the series. What would the point be of asking him to do that in addition to how he typically transforms? There must be a difference, or there is no difference at all. And I ain't passive aggressive.  
Edited by sekzee, Apr 27 2015, 07:51 PM.
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| FutureProtagonist | Apr 27 2015, 07:54 PM Post #17 |
Quwrof Wrlccywrlir
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That's fine, but I don't see any visual difference between Gohan going Ultimate and him going Super Saiyan at the Cell Games. Both of them yell, a shockwave kicks up some dust and they're ready to rock. Perhaps the kiai (as in a wave of ki) kicked up the dust, but if that's so, everyone's been using kiais during transformations the whole time. To add on to this, Gohan doesn't actually acknowledge the Kiai part, only the "gist of Super Saiyan" part. Perhaps he simply has been doing them the entire time? As a final note, Viz doesn't even bother with the part about the Kiai. I know that doesn't mean much. Edited by FutureProtagonist, Apr 27 2015, 08:00 PM.
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| sekzee | Apr 27 2015, 08:02 PM Post #18 |
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Except Gohan doesn't transform into a SSJ during the Cell Games. He powers up. |
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| FutureProtagonist | Apr 27 2015, 08:15 PM Post #19 |
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Quwrof Wrlccywrlir
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Spoiler: click to toggle Besides, if he's going to fight, he's going to power up to full.
Edited by FutureProtagonist, Apr 27 2015, 08:17 PM.
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| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Apr 27 2015, 08:26 PM Post #20 |
魔王子
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The Kiai allows him to release all his Ki at once in the process of amping his power through what he calls "the gist of Super Saiyajin". It's interesting to me that he doesn't merely say, "go Super Saiyajin". There's clearly more at play here than simply going Super Saiyajin, which is really my point. Nothing really implies he can't use Super Saiyajin after Rou Kaioshin's ritual. |
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| FutureProtagonist | Apr 27 2015, 09:38 PM Post #21 |
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Quwrof Wrlccywrlir
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I don't have a problem with him being able to go Super Saiyan. I just don't think that he's Ultimate anymore. If he does, transforming to Super Saiyan is crazy. Not only is it vastly weaker, but Kaioshin implies that Ultimate has some other kind of advantage over it as well. I could accept him weakening and Super Saiyan making up for that power, like Clearin said, but it seems that you're arguing he's just leaving it untapped and could use it if he wanted. That doesn't make sense. My personal stance is that he was not Ultimate in either movie. It's clear that the scene (where he attacks Beerus) was animated with Gohan as a Super Saiyan, then just colored over. If the animators and AT don't care to make any distinction between the two beyond hair color, I'm just going to go with him being Super Saiyan, as the animators originally intended. In the RoF manga, Krillin heavily implies that Boo is the strongest fighter next to Goku and Vegeta; if Gohan were Ultimate, that simply wouldn't be true. Edited by FutureProtagonist, Apr 27 2015, 09:39 PM.
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| sekzee | Apr 27 2015, 09:48 PM Post #22 |
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Gohan, Buu, and Piccolo are all beings that vastly surpass Frieza's level on Namek. I don't think it means as much as you're suggesting, otherwise it discredits Piccolo as well. |
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| FutureProtagonist | Apr 27 2015, 09:58 PM Post #23 |
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Quwrof Wrlccywrlir
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Why would Krillin be confident only if Boo was there? They're not going by Freeza's power on Namek. Every single one of them was afraid of Freeza; when he addresses them, Piccolo and Gohan both start sweating and looking all desperate.
Edited by FutureProtagonist, Apr 27 2015, 09:58 PM.
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| sekzee | Apr 27 2015, 10:10 PM Post #24 |
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Why would Krillin be confident if Buu was there when Frieza already vastly surpasses Buu? Edited by sekzee, Apr 28 2015, 03:44 PM.
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| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Apr 27 2015, 10:15 PM Post #25 |
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魔王子
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He never really needed to in RF, so I think it's too early to rule out the possibility he can still access it. Then again, he does question his ability to use SSJ... It's whatever though I guess. It's not like his ultimate state matters at this point. Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Apr 27 2015, 10:16 PM.
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| + Pyrus | Apr 27 2015, 11:29 PM Post #26 |
 
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I never believed he was physiologically prohibited from transforming, so this has never been an issue for me. |
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| FutureProtagonist | Apr 28 2015, 12:09 AM Post #27 |
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Quwrof Wrlccywrlir
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I found one more interesting panel:  Given later events, it's clear that Gohan and the others didn't know exactly how strong Freeza is. That gives us this chain: Z team (with Boo) ? Z team (with a trained Gohan) > Freeza's army (expected) ~> Z team (minus Boo) Krillin is still worried after he hears that Boo isn't coming, Roshi says that they've miscalculated their odds, meaning that Freeza and his men will be a very difficult fight without Boo on their side. Roshi then goes on to ask Gohan whether he's trained. How a trained Gohan would affect the odds isn't made clear, but the way Roshi asks it, I think he believes that it will even the odds. Then we have this, where it's made clear that Freeza is far more powerful than they were expecting.  Piccolo's comment should be enough to put first form Freeza > Boo. Gohan's line after that, I think, implies that he's stronger than Boo as well; it seems that only Goku is strong enough to fight Freeza now. first form Freeza > SSJ Gohan > Freeza (expected) When Krillin asked about Boo he was still expecting Freeza to be weaker than SSJ Gohan. The best I can come with is that to him, Freeza being stronger than Boo is inconceivable, but Freeza being stronger than Gohan is possible. Regardless, I can't imagine why, if Gohan was still Ultimate, that he'd be worried about going Super Saiyan; the context further implies that the reason he's afraid he can't go Super Saiyan is because he hasn't been training. It doesn't have anything to do with the Ultimate powerup possibly overwriting it. If he still has his Ultimate power, worrying about turning Super Saiyan seems like a non-sequitur. Shouldn't he be worried about losing his Ultimate power due to lack of training? |
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| sekzee | Apr 28 2015, 03:50 PM Post #28 |
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No, because it is not his ultimate "power-up" that he is losing, just simply his access to his full power for lack of training. His entire ki was rearranged so it could be accessed without having to transform, since that is "the wrong way of doing things", according to Old Kaioshin. It is entirely possible for him to be using SSJ to access that power or make up for it like others have suggested. Everyone is counting on Goku and Vegeta showing up. The rest truly just needed to hold off/defeat Frieza's army. Edited by sekzee, Apr 28 2015, 03:51 PM.
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| -Freeman | Apr 28 2015, 05:04 PM Post #29 |
I think I need a doctor
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Why are you trying to mix manga canon with movie/GT? Just take comfort in the fact that these movies are "anime canon", not "manga canon". I know Toriyama probably never referred to it that way, but it's much easier to just leave the manga as a separate canon from the anime/films/spin offs. |
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| sekzee | Apr 28 2015, 05:17 PM Post #30 |
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GT has been declared a side-story by Toriyama, and he confirmed BOG/RF as a continuation of his story as if the manga was still in serialization. What question is there to be had here regarding canon? None.
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