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- Piccolo VS Android #17
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| Piccolo VS Android #17 | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 6 2015, 07:41 AM (2,058 Views) | |
| * Stark | Mar 11 2015, 01:14 PM Post #16 |
Rock Lobster
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Who knows if the barrier has a limit, though? I'm fairly sure Light Grenade could do some heavy heavy damage. |
   
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| Strawberry | Mar 11 2015, 03:27 PM Post #17 |
Chiaroscuro ♥
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^ We don't know exactly the extent of the android barrier's effiency. But we know Piccolo must charge for a little bit before shooting the Light Grenade so unless 17 had fallen asleep and wasn't looking he could probably either avoid it or put up a barrier and minimize the damage. There's no doubt that a fully charged Light Grenade would do a s*** ton of damage to 17, if not destroy him, tho. |
  ♪ ♥ ♫ Across The Universe
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Mar 11 2015, 04:11 PM Post #18 |
 
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its not like 17 would allow Piccolo shoot light grenade. so 17 wins. only Piccolo fanboys will disagree. |
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| + Pointer | Mar 11 2015, 04:12 PM Post #19 |
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17 would win, it is a cheap trick not to get tired whilst fighting |
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| sekzee | Mar 11 2015, 05:17 PM Post #20 |
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Piccolo would have won if he hadn't attempted to conserve energy for 16 and 18. He didn't just think he was fighting 17 and that'd be the end of it. |
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Mar 11 2015, 05:38 PM Post #21 |
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^ Piccolo fanboy,they will always find explanation or excuse. |
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| Slifer | Mar 11 2015, 05:49 PM Post #22 |
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He's a fanboy because he gives an explanation that makes sense? Come on, contribute or don't bother posting and wasting everyone's time. As for the topic, it could go either way, really. 17 narrowly escaped death already. He can only get away with that so many times. Piccolo was starting to wear down but still had a couple cards to play. I split it evenly. Both win 5/10 times. Guess that makes me a Piccolo fanboy. 
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| + Pointer | Mar 11 2015, 05:50 PM Post #23 |
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also "conserving" energy aint a wise option. better use everything to crush the strongest and not get tired whilst being suppressed. |
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| * Stark | Mar 12 2015, 03:24 PM Post #24 |
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Rock Lobster
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Calling someone a fanboy is also an excuse to avoid putting up with debates. It's also not an excuse, I think the manga made it pretty clear that Piccolo wasn't going all out: He fought all the way without using his strongest move, Light Grenade, which he used to attack Cell who he knew was stronger. |
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| Strawberry | Mar 12 2015, 03:34 PM Post #25 |
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Chiaroscuro ♥
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^ But that could be because he had already seen Android 17 avoiding what was meant to be Piccolo's final move on him with the android barrier. Maybe Piccolo realized using the Light Grenade on 17 would be a waste of time and energy. Time to actually gather enough ki to shoot out the light grenade, and energy to actually have all that ki simply go to waste in a time when Piccolo was already running out of stamina to keep up with 17. With Cell it's a different story because he knew it was do or die. Desperate times come for desperate measures and he was left with no other choice than risk using Light Grenade. Also, you guys that are assuming Piccolo was going to win are forgetting one vital detail, which is Piccolo's one and only intention while fighting 17. It's explicitly stated that Piccolo's goal was to take at least ONE of the androids out. He wasn't thinking of destroying all the androids, he only wanted to destroy either 17 or 18 to be able to keep Cell from achieving perfection. This is stated in the manga when Piccolo realizes 17 is fighting him solo and shows relief for that while thinking "perfect, this gives me a chance to take one of them out". So there's no logic in assuming Piccolo wasn't going all out. Edited by Strawberry, Mar 12 2015, 03:35 PM.
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| * Stark | Mar 12 2015, 03:47 PM Post #26 |
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Rock Lobster
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Why would he hold back on his greatest card then? He obviously wasn't going to kill them all but he was confident he could stop at least #17. I won't get into the "#17 might dodge" argument because there's a lot to take in account, previous parts of the fights, landing a shot from behind, using Zanzoken, having #17 in a place where he couldn't move... it's not something that can be separated out of a scenario. My point is that Piccolo definitely had a shot at taking down #17, if with nothing else but the Light Grenade. To support my point: Chapter: 370 (DBZ 176), P6.3 Context: as Piccolo charges a huge ki blast against Cell No.17: “…Yikes…!” He could also just barely get out of the main part of the blast because it was aimed at Cell. But as I said, it's hard to talk about this without having a clear scenario of the fight. |
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| Strawberry | Mar 12 2015, 04:03 PM Post #27 |
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Chiaroscuro ♥
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Okay, but here's the crucial aspect about this question: if we know Piccolo's main goal while fighting 17 was to destroy at least one of the androids and if he was able to do it, then why didn't he do it? Why didn't he do what you just said, corner 17 and use Light Grenade on him (assuming that would 100% take Android 17 out, which I too assume it would, but we don't have actual proof on that). Perhaps because there simply was no room for it, no? There is just NO logic in assuming Piccolo was letting 17 have his way with the battle when he was one of the few people who had met Cell in person and realized how terrible the consequences of having him achieve perfection would be. He had also just fused with Kami who was arguably the wisest character on DBZ and who had been watching Cell's behavior prior to fusing Piccolo to make sure Cell truly was a huge threat to humanity who needed to be stopped. So why exactly would Piccolo even THINK of toying around/not going all out with 17 - who according to 16 was equal to Piccolo in terms of strength, so it's not like Piccolo actually could afford not giving his all - when he fully realized he had the responsability do destroy him? Like I said, it's fairly easy to assume Piccolo did indeed have enough strength to defeat 17 objectively, but there's no reason for us to assume he wouldn't have done it if he could have. He simply couldn't. There was no "oh, I haven't killed you yet because I'm saving myself for 16 and 18" in the picture. There's no "I haven't killed you because I'm not being 100% serious" either. Piccolo was going all out and he failed because he didn't have the endurance to keep up with 17. Under the circumstances presented to us in the series, Piccolo simply couldn't defeat 17. Edited by Strawberry, Mar 12 2015, 04:06 PM.
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| * Stark | Mar 12 2015, 04:10 PM Post #28 |
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Rock Lobster
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We don't know if it couldn't happen, what we know is that it did not happen yet. It's not set in stone, the battle could go either way. As I said, it's depending on a lot of other things. Location, scenario, etc etc. The manga portrays them as being pretty much even, meaning the battle could go either way. Sure it's not logical for Piccolo not to go all out etc etc but he didn't attack Freeza while he was transforming, that sort of stuff. It's very possible that in a scenario he manages to hit him with a Light Grenade and kills him. We can't say he won't be able to do that because hadn't tried it. That can't be denied, really.  I kinda want to ask Toriyama now
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| Strawberry | Mar 12 2015, 04:32 PM Post #29 |
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Chiaroscuro ♥
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But that was not exactly what we were discussing. We weren't discussing if Piccolo had or not enough strength to defeat 17 under the right circumstances, it had been established that they were roughly equal in power and that objectively speaking could destroy one another merely based on power, which opens up a a wide range of possibilities in the coulda, woulda, shoulda territory. I was specifically refuting the idea that Piccolo didn't win -- or wasn't winning -- because he wasn't going all out. Which is a theory brought up by the member sekzee and subsequently defended by you. A Light Grenade to the face was likely to shred 17 to pieces, but if it never happened it's because Piccolo either thought he couldn't afford having the Light Grenade miss/be blocked by a barrier, or simply because there was no room for it to happen at all. And that's much to 17's credit. From my understanding, there's not a whole lot of point in assuming that 17 wouldn't win against Piccolo unless he did some stupid mistake. Realistically speaking, 17 had a clear upper hand by the end of their battle and was going to eventually win. So if Piccolo couldn't finish him off prior to that, he most likely wouldn't have been able to do it at a time when he was quickly losing stamina and vigor. |
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| * Stark | Mar 12 2015, 04:37 PM Post #30 |
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Rock Lobster
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Oh sorry I didn't mean to give off the idea that Piccolo was holding back power, he was just avoiding using his best attack. He was going 100% other than that, which is emphatized by how tired he is at the end of the fight. Agree to disagree on the rest? We can't dig much deeper in this matchup I think. |
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