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2015 World Tournament; Lord Orochimaru vs Nagito Komaeda
Topic Started: Feb 23 2015, 09:09 PM (972 Views)
EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Topic: "Debating Namek"

Start Date: 02/23/2015

End Date: 03/01/2015 (This Sunday)

Debate will end this Sunday though if you finish sooner that's fine. Good luck to the two of you.

Only the two debaters here may post in the topic.
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Nagito Komaeda
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Greato Daze!

Right, let's start of with one of the easiest parts of the Saga. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so I think it's best to split it up into a few major parts, namely; The Start of the Saga, the Ginyu Force and the multiple forms of Freeza. What do ya think? I'll just give you my numbers for the first one and, if there's any disagreement, we can get started.

Vegeta: 24,000

Zarbon : 22,500
(Transformed) : 29,000

Dodoria : 21,000

Cui : 18,000

What's your view on their powers at the start, Prof?
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Professor Gohan
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Satire.

I apologize for the lateness. Let's get started.

It seems I disagree with your placing of Zarbon and Dodoria. The gaps you use are a little smaller than the ones I use. So I'll start by giving my numbers for Zarbon and Dodoria.


  • Zarbon (pretty boy) - 21,000
  • Zarbon (monster) - 28,000

  • Dodoria - 20,000

  • Vegeta - 24,000


With that said, I use a 1.2x gap for the way Vegeta did Dodoria during their brief encounter and a 1.14x gap for Vegeta and Zarbon's fight.

What is your reasoning for using a 1.14x (Vegeta v Dodoria) and a 1.06x (Vegeta v Zarbon)?
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Nagito Komaeda
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Greato Daze!

Lord Orochimaru
Mar 5 2015, 12:33 PM
I apologize for the lateness. Let's get started.

It seems I disagree with your placing of Zarbon and Dodoria. The gaps you use are a little smaller than the ones I use. So I'll start by giving my numbers for Zarbon and Dodoria.


  • Zarbon (pretty boy) - 21,000
  • Zarbon (monster) - 28,000

  • Dodoria - 20,000

  • Vegeta - 24,000


With that said, I use a 1.2x gap for the way Vegeta did Dodoria during their brief encounter and a 1.14x gap for Vegeta and Zarbon's fight.

What is your reasoning for using a 1.14x (Vegeta v Dodoria) and a 1.06x (Vegeta v Zarbon)?
Well, my basis for that gap is Vegeta's prediction when it comes to facing Freeza later on. Given that his only experience of transforming is when he fought Zarbon, one could argue that Vegeta was predicting that Freeza would gain the same amount of power as Zarbon did. Otherwise, we don't know what was going on in Vegeta's head, and anything smaller than what Zarbon showed wouldn't really be much of a 'transformation' for Freeza, would it? Though, that's something we can discuss later on in the topic, when we get around to the Freeza stuff.

In regards to my gap between Vegeta and Dodoria, it being that small is justified by Dodoria's apparent lack of Yuuki (Bravery/Courage) and Shouki (Being in one's right mind); Ki is composed of these two, along with Genki, so Dodoria being scared out of his mind would have an adverse effect on how strong he was in that moment. If he'd been courageous and hadn't been scared out of his mind, I hold that he'd have had a much better, less one-sided fight with Vegeta. He'd still get destroyed, it just wouldn't be as easy for Vegeta as it was;

Chapter: 249 (DBZ 55), 5.1
Context: talking to Vegeta
Kui: “W-with that battle power, if we teamed up w-we could at least manage something against Zarbon and Dodoria…!”

There's a few things we can get from this quote.

Firstly, that Vegeta isn't strong enough to take the two on by himself. That notion is supported by Freeza's statement as well;

Chapter: 249 (DBZ 55), P4.1-2
Context: Freeza, Zarbon, and Dodoria discuss Vegeta’s battle power as he powers up against Kui. Zarbon’s scouter had exploded.
Zarbon: "24,000...?! Are you saying it's higher than o... our own battle powers...?!"
Dodoria: "Th... this can't be...!! H... his battle power was barely 18,000..."
Freeza: “That shouldn’t be a surprise. It’s all because Vegeta’s been ceaselessly fighting on the front lines. Perhaps he’s caught on to something new on Earth. It’s merely 24,000. That’s a figure that you two would be more than able to win against if you fought together, is it not? Fufufu…”

At the very least, Dodoria isn't so weak that Vegeta could one-shot him under normal circumstances. If you wanted to use another interpretation, you could argue that Zarbon is strong enough to keep Vegeta fully occupied while Dodoria prepares an attack. Either way, this comment supports one of them being close match with Vegeta, which is why I have them closer to him than you.

I'm sure there will be other things to discuss on this part of the arc, but I'll post my numbers on the next part just to be safe.

Vegeta (Post-Zarbon): 30,000
(Post-Senzu): 60,000

Recoome: 42,000
Jeice: 42,000
Burter: 42,000
Guldo: 6,000

Gohan (Post-Guru): 12,000
Krillin (Post-Guru): 11,500

Captain Ginyu: 120,000

Son Goku (Burst): 60,000
(Full Power): 90,000

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Professor Gohan
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Satire.

Hmm, you make a good point about Vegeta's prediction. Well, it's good for keeping Freeza's increase at a minimum, so Vegeta's confidence in himself, Gohan and Krillin to take Freeza together is a little more believable.

However, I'm going to further my counter by comparing your own gaps to invisible gaps provided from the manga. With that said, I'll be able to prove to you why your gaps for Zarbon and Dodoria v Vegeta aren't fitting; however, they can still nicely puzzle into other surrounding fights from the manga.

That's where my sources will come from.

Nagito
 
Zarbon v Vegeta- 1.06x


I'm responding to this gap by mentioning Goku v Nappa.
We know Goku's battle power was read a little over 8,000. We also both know that Goku thought Nappa could give him a fight for forever since the latter managed to mentally gather himself.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Here is what I have for Goku v Nappa for Goku's point and during that scuffle: 8,250 (Goku) / 1.06x (your gap for Zarbon v Vegeta) = 7,783 (Nappa).
Now, Nappa's power placing is a whole 'nother debate, however it makes the most sense if Nappa's battle power was read somewhere in that range.

Furthermore, I don't want to seem like I'm getting off topic, but I would also like to mention another point that could help me against you and your point of Zarbon's small transformational boost and Vegeta's prediction.

A 1.33x amp (my gap for Zarbon's transformation) works fine, even though it's a larger gap. It doesn't quite hit the 1.8-2x mark (Freeza's own transformational boosts), and it's a simple multiplier that's the same as Vegeta's Galic Gun.

The Saiyan and Namek/Freeza arcs are the earlier parts of the manga, so the writing and perhaps the gaps have more in common than the later parts of the manga. Also worth mentioning, we know the author took his writing and story-telling a step at a time, so a statement during "later on" (in other words, your Vegeta's prediction) isn't as reliable as what was directly told from the novel itself (my examples all throughout this countering post).

Here is another example why Zarbon v Vegeta can't be a 1.06x gap--Look at Vegeta vs. First form Freeza:
We know Freeza reads at 530,000... and Vegeta had a nice, close fight with him -- one of the closest in the manga -- which should put him somewhere around 500,000--more or less. That equals out to a 1.06x.

Vegeta and Zarbon's fight looks nothing like that. Though Vegeta wasn't hurting Zarbon much, Vegeta was faster and wasn't hit once during their fight. Zarbon also felt the need to transform and get the fight over with. Zarbon v Vegeta is more like a 1.14x gap, as I mentioned before. A gap like that, Nagito, looks like this fight from the manga: Yamcha v Saibaiman.

A Saibaiman is 1,200 and Yamcha is somewhere in the 1300s--a 1.14x gap or so. That's based off their approximate numbers and fight against each other. It was borderline close and outclass.

Now, on to Dodoria v Vegeta. A lot of what I have to say for this should be based off what I mentioned for Zarbon v Vegeta already. However, I'll go up against a couple of your points.

Firstly, though we all know what ki is made of, we can't be too sure if the author added in that little detail in that specific fight. The point is certainly plausible, but at the end we still don't have anything close to a mention about that.

Vegeta didn't even one-shot Dodoria, so a 1.2x gap isn't called a one-shot gap (in other words, my number 1.2x gap is safe). Since Vegeta couldn't even one-shot Dodoria, it's not too hard to believe Zarbon can jump in and relieve some of that gap for Dodoria for an overall good fight, especially since we know it's possible since it came from Freeza and Vegeta himself.

In addition--remember your own placing for Zarbon (22,500) and Kui (18,000)? Well, check this out:

Spoiler: click to toggle


According to your own numbers and placings for them... and the aforementioned quote above, you are basically agreeing with me that a 1.2x gap is okay to use for teamwork battles this early in the manga.


Edited by Professor Gohan, Mar 7 2015, 12:44 AM.
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Nagito Komaeda
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Greato Daze!

Quote:
 
Hmm, you make a good point about Vegeta's prediction. Well, it's good for keeping Freeza's increase at a minimum, so Vegeta's confidence in himself, Gohan and Krillin to take Freeza together is a little more believable.

However, I'm going to further my counter by comparing your own gaps to invisible gaps provided from the manga. With that said, I'll be able to prove to you why your gaps for Zarbon and Dodoria v Vegeta aren't fitting; however, they can still nicely puzzle into other surrounding fights from the manga.

That's where my sources will come from.

Nagito
 
Zarbon v Vegeta- 1.06x


I'm responding to this gap by mentioning Goku v Nappa.
We know Goku's battle power was read a little over 8,000. We also both know that Goku thought Nappa could give him a fight for forever since the latter managed to mentally gather himself.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Here is what I have for Goku v Nappa for Goku's point and during that scuffle: 8,250 (Goku) / 1.06x (your gap for Zarbon v Vegeta) = 7,783 (Nappa).
Now, Nappa's power placing is a whole 'nother debate, however it makes the most sense if Nappa's battle power was read somewhere in that range.


The fight with Nappa is a very interesting one; it implies that Nappa has no amp to his attacks whatsoever. If his attack even had measly 1.1x amp, it would've been stronger than Goku's hasty Kamehameha, which we can conclude has no amp due to him not having time to charge it. The fact that Nappa wasn't hit even a little bit, according to Goku. shows that Nappa is pretty much on his level. Even a 1.06x gap would likely give him a big enough advantage to actually push Nappa back and charge a ki attack, but him saying it would take forever tells us that Nappa was strong and fast enough to not let that happen at all. Vegeta seemed fairly confident that Nappa could potentially take the win knowing that Goku was >8,000, and so did Nappa, at least until Goku cancelled his attack. I'd hold that Nappa is either 8,000, or so close to it that the gap is negligible. My numbers are;

Son Goku: 8,100

Nappa: 8,000

So, a 1.01x gap.

Quote:
 
The Saiyan and Namek/Freeza arcs are the earlier parts of the manga, so the writing and perhaps the gaps have more in common than the later parts of the manga. Also worth mentioning, we know the author took his writing and story-telling a step at a time, so a statement during "later on" (in other words, your Vegeta's prediction) isn't as reliable as what was directly told from the novel itself (my examples all throughout this countering post).


Toriyama wrote by the seat of his pants, yeah, but given Zarbon's statement;

Chapter: 263 (DBZ 69), P9.2-5, P10.1
Context: Zarbon explains that even though Vegeta’s improved, he’s still no match for him, and that Freeza also transforms.
Zarbon: “Fufu…Looks like you can’t hide your surprise at learning that I’m also a transforming-type alien…This was quite a miscalculation…You went through all the trouble of getting better, and now the situation has reversed itself again…Oh, I know! I’ll tell you something else as a parting gift before you die…Lord Freeza has told me that he too is a transforming-type alien…!”

The only real comparison Vegeta can make is between Zarbon's transformation and Freeza's. Otherwise, what kind of prediction is he making? He's obviously basing it on something, and I very much doubt that he'd pull a number out of thin air, especially when dealing with Freeza.

On your point of how Zarbon vs. Vegeta looked

Chapter: 262 (DBZ 68), P10.2-4
Context: Kuririn senses Vegeta and Zarbon fighting.
Kuririn: “Oh, man…! There are two incredible ki bashing together…! Vegeta’s colliding with someone! [ ] I-it’s probably one of those guys who was with Freeza…Both of them are monsters…I’m absolutely no match for them… Let’s just hope they cream each other…”

This implies that Vegeta and Zarbon are quite close to each other. Zarbon's at least in the ball-park of Vegeta, and Krillin's hope that Zarbon would injure/possibly defeat Vegeta shows that Zarbon's strong enough to potentially beat Vegeta, or at least deal some serious damage to him.

Quote:
 

Here is another example why Zarbon v Vegeta can't be a 1.06x gap--Look at Vegeta vs. First form Freeza:
We know Freeza reads at 530,000... and Vegeta had a nice, close fight with him -- one of the closest in the manga -- which should put him somewhere around 500,000--more or less. That equals out to a 1.06x.


It wasn't nearly as even as you're suggesting.

Posted Image

Look at Vegeta's expression and compare it with Freeza's. Vegeta's got visible veins on his forehead and Freeza has none; no real signs of showing true effort. I'm actually going to go out of my way here and say that Vegeta's outclassed. Admittedly, talk of his predictions is a little troublesome, so I'll forego that and skip right to the point I want to make now;

Chapter: 293 (DBZ 99), P6.5
Vegeta: “Som-something’s coming closer! A stupendous battle power…! It’s Freeza!”

Chapter: 293 (DBZ 99), P12.2
Vegeta: “You fools…! You’ve wasted the one method of defeating Freeza! The only way to win against him was to make me immortal!”

Vegeta freaks out when he realises that the Dragonballs aren't working any longer. He describes immortality as 'the only way' to beat Freeza. Why would he say that if he thinks he's comparable to the tyrant? He would've described immortality as making things much easier if he was almost as strong as Freeza, no? Then, further on, we get more statements;

Chapter: 294 (DBZ 100), P12.2
Context: about to fight Freeza
Vegeta: “So you’ve shown your true colors…Well, just try it! If you think you can defeat me that easily the way I am now, then you’re greatly mistaken!”

Instead of being confident about his chances of winning, he talks about how it wont be easy for Freeza to kill him. Nothing about ''I'll defeat you, Freeza!'' or ''Now I'm strong enough to take you out!''. He simply comments about how he'll be more of a challenge to Freeza. A bit strange coming from him, I'm sure you'll agree. Not once has he stated that he'd be able to beat Freeza at this point, just that he's strong enough to fight with him for a while.

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P9.1-5
Vegeta: “We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…The squirt in particular hides so much inner strength that he doesn’t even know it himself…And I’m in the process of becoming what you’re afraid of: a Super Saiyan…!”

''Somehow or another!''. He never says that they'd be able to overpower Freeza, or that it'd be a clear win for the three of them. He makes it quite clear that he's rather hesitant on the issue, opting to put his hopes onto things outside of power. That is, he focuses on Gohan's inner strength and his gradual progression to becoming a Super Saiyan; it's as if he's hoping that he'll become a Super Saiyan, and that it would be how he wins. Vegeta's a very cocky and arrogant person. Would he really put his chances on Gohan's inner strength if there was any other option? After this, we get one of the most important quotes for the battle;

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P13.6
Context: after grappling with Vegeta for awhile, after Vegeta said they could win
Gohan: “It-it’s true…! If we 3 fight together, we might really be able to manage something…H-he really is absolutely incredible, but we’ve gotten better too…!

Say what you like about Vegeta and him trying to get Freeza to transform, Gohan's perspective here really makes things clear. He talks about them being able to 'manage something'. The way he words it shows that he's a little hesitant on the whole situation; Freeza's advantage is such that he's not entirely sure. Keep in mind, Gohan's only talking about the Freeza right in front of him. He's not considering a transformed, powered up Freeza.

Freeza : 530,000

Vegeta: 450,000
Gohan: 200,000 - 250,000
Krillin : 150,000 - 200,000

The gap between Freeza and Vegeta is bigger than the one between Dodoria and Vegeta, but the difference here is that Vegeta is confident. However misplaced that confidence may be, it's still there, meaning that he isn't lacking in Yuuki. The discussion about the different components of Ki is also an interesting one. Here's Herms' translation of one of the questions posed to Toriyama in the Super Exciting Guide;

''What’s the secret of winning in battle?

When it comes to battle, the most important thing is ki size, and its control. Of course, “ki” also includes such spiritual power as energy/vigor [genki] and bravery [yuuki], and being in one’s right mind [shouki; could also be translated as "true character"] (note 11). There’s a limit to physical strength, no matter how much you toughen it up, and the only way to overcome that it is with “ki”. I think that it was through turning ki into formidable power that Goku drew closer to being the strongest warrior in the universe.''

Herms goes on to say that those three aren't the only components, citing Toriyama's use of a word implying that there are more, but given that they're the three that he felt needed to be mentioned, it's logical to conclude that they're the three most important components.

Vegeta took out Dodoria in one blast, but Dodoria was scared out of his mind and running away. Being caught off-guard like that in a state where you're lacking Yuuki is devastating, and I'd argue that the fight wouldn't nearly have been as quick and easy as it was for Vegeta had Dodoria not been lacking in Yuuki.


Quote:
 
In addition--remember your own placing for Zarbon (22,500) and Kui (18,000)? Well, check this out:

Spoiler: click to toggle


According to your own numbers and placings for them... and the aforementioned quote above, you are basically agreeing with me that a 1.2x gap is okay to use for teamwork battles this early in the manga.


Vegeta's stronger than Zarbon and Dodoria, so Kui's statement could be talking about any number of hypothetical situations. Given that the gap between Kui and Dodoria is a little smaller than the gap between Freeza and Vegeta (for me, at least), Kui could fight him for a while. By no means would Kui be fighting well, he'd just be keeping Dodoria busy. Vegeta could fight and defeat Zarbon, then go to assist Kui in killing Dodoria. Again, Kui is a little hesitant, saying that they could manage something. The real important thing in that quote is Vegeta's power. Kui would just be a means of letting Vegeta take on Dodoria and Zarbon one at a time.

I don't have a problem with the 1.2x gap for teamwork battles, heck, even individual battles. It's just essential to talk about the context surrounding the incidents where that gap is called into question. You may feel like discarding the talk about the components of ki, but the Namek Saga gives us scenarios that fit the bill perfectly with them.
Edited by Nagito Komaeda, Mar 7 2015, 07:55 PM.
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