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2015 World Tournament; Lazerbem vs Emmeth
Topic Started: Feb 23 2015, 09:07 PM (1,153 Views)
EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Topic: "The Gap between Monster Zarbon and Post-Zenkai Vegeta"

Start Date: 02/23/2015

End Date: 03/01/2015 (This Sunday)

Debate will end this Sunday though if you finish sooner that's fine. Good luck to the two of you.

Only the two debaters here may post in the topic.
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lazerbem
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I will be arguing in favor of there being a tiny gap if any

First off, Vegeta says(sorry I couldn't find the Herms number)
"I'd say Zarbon has found me. Feh! What a nuisance! Oh well...at least is an opportunity to get him out of the way once and for all! He'll be too sure of himself after that last battle...he'll come at me offguard..."
Vegeta says that it would be a good time to take him out since Zarbon is offguard.

When Zarbon shows up, cocky from his last match, he charges in there recklessly and Vegeta says
"Off guard , indeed"
This seems to show that Vegeta placed a lot of stock into Zarbon's cockiness putting him offguard when he finds him next.

Anyway, Vegeta then dodges Zarbon's attack and flies into the air before dropping sand in Zarbon's eyes. Being blind is a killer in a fight, Zarbon is not only still cocky and sure in his victory(he is unaware of the zenkai), but he is also unable to defend himself or dodge since he has lost track of Vegeta. Whilst offguard, Vegeta proceeds to shatter the armor on Zarbon's back with a ki powered punch before smashing him into the water. Vegeta then launches a ki storm and isn't smiling at all, there's no sign given of any toying(except when he blocks Bulma and Krillin's path)

Zarbon eventually surges from the water and dodges a couple of the ki storm blasts, causing Vegeta to widen his eyes and go "!!". The pair land and Zarbon looks pretty beat up.

Chapter: 268 (DBZ 74), P8.1-5
Context: Vegeta thinks Zarbon’s strength has fallen from the pre-emptive attack and brags about his own increase in power.
Vegeta: “Looks like my preemptive attack had an effect…Your stamina’s fallen quite a bit, hasn’t it? Zarbon, your death is close.”
Zarbon: “My d-death is close…!? Don’t make me laugh! My battle power is higher than yours!”
Vegeta: “Zarbon…Weren’t you supposed to know a lot about Saiyans? It wasn’t a good idea for you to carelessly treat me after I almost died…Don’t you think so? Saiyans can steadily increase their battle power each time they recover from near death…”

Zarbon is clearly bluffing here, that attack hurt him quite a bit as seen from blood dribbling all over his body and his armor all shredded. This means that the last leg of the fight is against a Zarbon who has taken a preemptive attack and has lost a lot of stamina. Zarbon charges and Vegeta yells that Saiyans are a warrior race before responding in kind
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They have a pummel duel and while we can't see Vegeta's face, we can see that he is forced to block and that Zarbon is blocking a couple of his shots as well. This struggle continues one for one more panel before suddenly, Vegeta stabs his fist through Zarbon's chest and the fight is over. This is not done casually either, Vegeta screams as he does this. He doesn't even drop the gritted teeth expression until he blows out Zarbon's back.

I believe that if there was a gap at all between them, it was miniscule. Vegeta has to resort to tricks to cheapshot Zarbon and says that he would rather take on Zarbon while the guy is offguard. Furthermore, even Vegeta is shocked when Zarbon jumps out of the water post ki storm. It says a lot that even after being damaged by this attack, Zarbon fends off Vegeta for two panels before he is finally impaled with a punch that Vegeta put effort into.
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Meanwhile, somewhere else...
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Emmeth
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I Yoeri

It's true that Zarbon's power level was dropping like "a stone" after the short scuffle with Vegeta, however I feel that Vegeta had a big enough gap to successfully dodge Zarbon's attempts throughout the match without taking significant damage.

To me it seems like Vegeta only had aesthetic damage on his person, so to me that signifies a larger gap than minimal.

I do agree Zarbon was being cocky and was caught off-guard, but if the gap was minimal Vegeta's trick wouldn't do the damage they did.

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The moves he shows in the page above are quite impressive given the opponent he is up against. If they were close to even Vegeta wouldn't be able to dodge so effortlessly.

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Furthermore, the damage he does in the page above is incredibly based on how evenly they were fighting. Vegeta had more speed and endurance, hence he must've had more strength. It's all linear in Dragonball.

After this point, Vegeta uses one of his signature techniques on Zarbon and notes after this that Zarbon's power level is dropping. At this point it's nothing more than a formality, so I don't wish to point out the difference here.

As a side-note, Vegeta never sweated once during the second fight against Zarbon. If sweat has anything to say, I think that is a marvellous feat if the gap was miniscule.
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lazerbem
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You missed the page where Zarbon chases after him. In that page, Zarbon was still looking cocky. Vegeta dodged him easily because Zarbon was offguard. Furthermore, a small gap doesn't stop fighters from dodging. Goku dodged Cell a couple of times afterall

Vegeta only had aesthetic damage because by the time he gave Zarbon time to react, the guy had been heavily weakened.

Also, Zarbon taking a lot of damage from a cheap shot is hardly a mark against him. Even Goku went down like a sack of bricks when Vegeta cheapshotted him. Zarbon was still in a combat ready state though, as compared to Goku and so wouldn't be oneshotted.
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Emmeth
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I didn't forget it because it doesn't really change my opinion.
Goku and Cell were in an understanding that they would warm up first. If they were evenly matched at full power, dodging would be a lot harder. I can't remember any instance where dodging of this quality was shown in an even fight.

Two examples below from an even fight:

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Goku dodges one punch, but afterwards he gets hit a few times. I want to compare this fight to Vegeta vs Zarbon as Piccolo was also being cocky although not noticed by Goku. Goku is aware of Piccolo's attack here and is still hit by Piccolo several times because they were so evenly matched.

So moving on, Zarbon was cocky but should know not to underestimate his opponent as he's fought Vegeta before and was forced to transform. This time that didn't hold because Vegeta had grown so much stronger from the zenkai, as Vegeta even told Zarbon. I think the gap is still bigger than what you're arguing.
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lazerbem
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Yes, but when Zarbon transformed last time, he made Vegeta his b***. He expects the same thing going in and likely didn't think too much of Vegeta dodging him.

Also, your scans proved my point. In the left one, Goku dodges Piccolo twice. I am almost certain Piccolo had more skill than Zarbon and he was on-guard as well, compared to Zarbon still feeling cocky and thinking that he could swat down Vegeta like a bug. Yes, Piccolo dodged Goku's kick, but like I said, he's on guard and Vegeta's attack was more subtle than that.

If you want to bring up dodging, Zarbon dodged a couple of shots from the volley attack when he came out of the water, which shocked Vegeta. Zarbon also blocked a good amount of kicks and punches from Vegeta in their pummel duel when they came out of the water, it was really the lack of stamina that would have killed him at that point.
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Emmeth
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I got nothing more to add, really.

Just wanted to say that an off-guard Zarbon is only an assurance to Vegeta. Even if Zarbon was on-guard and ready to tackle Vegeta's every attack, he would still be beaten by Vegeta. He's confident enough in his Saiyan heritage to deal with him, no matter the concequences.

At least, that's my view on it. The gap should be at least 3000 between the two.
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lazerbem
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Vegeta would certainly win due to greater skill, but I doubt it was an issue of power.

Nothing more to add other than that I see a 1000 gap at best
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Emmeth
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Okay, we're done here then. Judging can commence.
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