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2015 World Tournament Round 1; FutureSaiyan vs Southern Gothic
Topic Started: Feb 23 2015, 09:06 PM (991 Views)
EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Topic: "Why did Piccolo's power seem to level off after the Cell Games"

Start Date: 02/23/2015

End Date: 03/01/2015 (This Sunday)

You may start now. The debate will end on Sunday though if you finish sooner that's fine. Good luck.

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FutureSaiyan
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I'm debating why Piccolo's power seemed to have plateaued after the cell games.

> Throughout Piccolo's time In DB & DBZ (until the Cell Saga) he is seen to make steady gains almost at the level of a Saiyan, and always somewhat ready to face the next challenge. Piccolo's power level sitting at 408 when fighting alongside Goku who had a power level of 416 against Raditz. This is evidence that Piccolo was improving at a full blooded saiyan rate.

> Then we have Piccolo train for the battle with the saiyans, and although clearly outclasses was the best resistance besides Goku and improved significantly in power.

> Against Frieza even though Piccolo was assisted by Nail, Piccolo must have contained at least Half of the power at the very least (assuming Piccolo was weaker), if that is the case then that pins Piccolo's power level at 500,000 (as he was equal with Frieza 2nd form) with is far superior to Goku's power level of 180,000 even after training in 100x earths gravity. (Yes I recognise Goku can multiply that with Kaioken but im talking General power minus the ability of short bursts)

Piccolo then improves significantly between the 3 year time gap of the androids and annihilates Gero who has solid data on Piccolo that calculated Piccolo to be completely inferior to him, yet Piccolo squashed him like a bug. So Piccolo clearly is continuing to make incredible gains despite not having a 50x multiplier like the saiyans.

now bare with me I know there's a little bit to read..

Now it is only when Piccolo fuses with Kami and receives an incredible power boost that his power seems to have almost reached a maximum. It is as though Piccolo's ability to improve was cut off once he closed the gap in power by becoming whole with Kami again. Piccolo then however enters the room of spirit and time (Hyperbolic time chamber) and as noted by Goku makes respectable improvements but nothing to bring him on par with Cell. We can assume Piccolo at least levelled with ASSJ Vegeta, but that's besides the point.

Piccolo then proceeds the next 7 years, at the lookout, shown to not be training at all and minimally when he is told Goku is coming back. Now this is Piccolo who hasn't stopped training a day in his life, and all of a sudden in times of piece knowing the other fighters are well above him, stops training. I believe that Kami's influence on Piccolo's thought process made him aware that Piccolo's potential has been maximised and that any further training would improve but at a slower rate.

Piccolo's main motivation for training was to kill Goku, and when that was over it was to defeat Frieza, and then to train for the androids, and then Cell. After Cell for the first time in Piccolo's life he had no reason to continue improving his power, especially knowing that the others were so far beyond him, Piccolo seemed to have a change of motives. Kami seemed to have matured Piccolo in the sense that his new responsibility became guiding and helping the new guardian of Earth in his role, and less in competing for strength and power.

By the time a new unexpected foe had come around, Piccolo knew that the amount of ground that needed to be covered was near impossible so focused his energies in assisting in any way he can. First by transporting the future protectors of earth out of Vegeta's blast radius, and then teaching them to fusion so that they stood a chance against Buu.

To sum all my rambling up, I believe Piccolo had ended his time competing with people who had exceeded his limits and had without his desire to kill or protect anyone the necessity of training had been reduced. Focussing more on being able to support the Z fighters and the Earth through his vast knowledge obtained from Kami and his battle experience.
Edited by FutureSaiyan, Feb 24 2015, 05:22 AM.
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Southern Gothic
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We don't need that scum.

There will be some similarities as well as disagreement to what FutureSaiyan had to say. I hope to illustrate both to a greater degree.

For starters, I do not agree that Piccolo would ever be the type of fighter to allow himself to "take it easy" so to speak. As was already stated by my fellow debater, Piccolo managed to keep pace all the way to the fight against Cell, but I will get more into that later. The important fact here is that against Cell, Piccolo was behind, Gohan, Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, yet after the Cell games, two out of those four fighters were gone. Goku was dead and Trunks went back to his timeline. That puts Piccolo at #3, with, so far, Gohan being the only one who was miles ahead of the pack. If ever there was a perfect opportunity to reestablish himself, it was after the Cell games. Considering all that the Z Fighters had been through up until that point, there is nothing to suggest that the threats would ever stop coming, and it would surprise me in and out to seePiccolo passively allow Vegeta of all people to stand as the second strongest in the group.

I do not believe it was for a lack of desire, training, or want. Rather, I would argue that Piccolo simply was not able to gain a significant power after the Cell Games because he, frankly, did not fuse with anyone else. It is my theory, however unpopular, that Piccolo may not have been that terribly strong on his own after the arrival of Raditz. Not once, but twice, we see him rely heavily on Nemekian fusion in order to make his most notable power jumps to once again regain relevance. The only instance we see of Piccolo successfully combating an enemy due to only his training is against Dr. Gero, after prepairing with Gohan and Goku before the Androids arrive. Weigh that against his post fusion battles against 2nd Form Freeza and 17.

These situations are not simply a matter of battle power. The story here is not soley in the numbers. It's in the drama. Weigh Piccolo's success after training against other fighters who showed up to battle after severe preperation, such as Vegeta post RoSaT, or Goku after 100x gravity, and it becomes clear when and where Piccolo makes his grandest stand as a fighter through out DBZ. Those moments occur after fusion. Plot device or not, fusion is Piccolo's version of Super Saiyan, and it was dire for him to use this to maintain relevance as the series progressed. Fusion stands out completely as his most effective means of expanding his battle power.

After the Cell Games, however, what is Piccolo left with? I see two possibilities here. After the merger wiith Kami, there was no one left to fuse with, practically speaking. Or, more than likely, Piccolo no longer wished to use this technique. Even if he did, there were few to none who would fulfill the desire to make this worthwhile. Of course we know of Dende, as well as those living on New Namek, but to fuse with any of them simply for the sake of it would be a gaudy approach to fighting, especially for a mean, green machine like Piccolo. With both Nail and Kami, he was combining with two exceptional individuals. Nail was by far the strongest Namekian warrior we as the audience has seen up to that point, while Kami was in essance a part of Piccolo and would have maximized his potential. These conditiins were exceptional, not only in power but in circumstance as well.

In short, Piccolo needed these fusions more than any method we saw him undergo.
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FutureSaiyan
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Southern Gothic
 
that Piccolo may not have been that terribly strong on his own after the arrival of Raditz. Not once, but twice, we see him rely heavily on Nemekian fusion in order to make his most notable power jumps to once again regain relevance


Piccolo was severely weaker than Nappa, I'd have Piccolo around 1500-2000 in power level at the time he fought Nappa. Now consider the fact that against 2nd form Frieza he had a power level over 1 million. Nail was pummeled by 1st form frieza who contained a power level of roughly 500,000 which means Nail must have had a power level <500,000, meaning that for Piccolo to make such a jump in power with no fusion bonus being stated, Piccolo must have contained a minimum power level of 500,000. Now if you consider the fact that Piccolo jumped from lower than 5000 to 100 times that, that to me is a very impressive gain in power especially in the small time that was allowed.

That factor alone suggests to me that Piccolo was more than capable of making steady progression on power alone, however fusing with Nail provided him with the power he needed in a short amount of time. Fusing with Kami is obviously a different story because that was more reuniting himself then adding an extra being.

So we have piccolo going from a power level of 408 to somewhere in the low thousands. Which is a minimum of double his power level, which at that point in the story is a large increase

We then have piccolo multiplying his power level by around 100 on his own

Piccolo is then seen to transform from what Gero considered to not even be worth his while, to Gero's worst nightmare even after gaining a huge power boost from Piccolo's enemy, and again results of his own training

Furthermore Piccolo even after fusing manages to go from the level of the androids, to a level of power that clearly impresses Goku in comparison to the old power Piccolo had regardless of how far it may have been from Goku's, which was again achieved on his own

So I see your argument is that Piccolo requires fusion in order to compete for power status and remain relevant, however I've identified multiple scenarios where Piccolo became relevant due to his own accord and in the situations where he was still weaker then the enemy after improving by x amount, so were 90% of the other fighters at the time. (i.e Cell games only Gohan and possibly Goku had any sort of chance, Frieza only Goku had even remotely any chance, Android 18 & 17 only Vegeta had any sort of chance)

So I conclude that it is my belief Piccolo is not reliant on fusion for power, the question is then left at what was the problem then?
The most logical conclusion I can reach given the information and scenario is that Piccolo after uniting was made aware of his limitations kind of how Vegeta was before becoming Majin, yet instead of resorting to dark magic, contributed where he could and merely accepted the fact that his potential was now limited, through his new maturity and understanding received through the fusion of Kami.

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Southern Gothic
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We don't need that scum.

Many of the jumps in power which you listed are indeed impressive on their own merit. However, I would counter by arguing that, when compared to many other Z Fighters, it is also, in a sense, normal. I am aware that we are dealing with a warrior, Piccolo, who had the power to destroy the moon before Nappa and Vegeta arrived on Earth. To clarify, calling his inate power unimpressive is somewhat relative on my part. All of these characters can be labeled as iincredibly powerfull. They all undergo gains and increases that, when put on paper, seem astounding.

For me, it comes down to more than that. As fun and entertaining as it may be, there is more at work here than simply multiplying numbers and surmizing a battle power. I believe it is more usefull to acknowlage what the author gives us. That is to say, what is happening outside the numbers? What are we shown? This is the reason I was more than comfortable acknowledging Piccolo's increase in power leading up to the Android Saga. The reason is because, while his percieved battle power, when broken down into numbers, may look impressive, the actual situation leads to absolutely nothing.

What angle of Piccolo's character, or his story for that matter, was effected by him being stronger than Gero? How important was that fight? How did Piccolo versus Gero add to the greater dynamic of what was happening? I would dare say that it added very little. Despite what may look like similarities on the surface, this is largely incomparable to the fight against Freeza, thanks in part to, of course, Fusion.

On Namek, following his first merger with Nail, we have Piccolo arriving at a crucial and dire moment. Goku remains incapacitated. Vegeta, Gohan and Krillain are incapacitated. The Namekian Dragon Balls are gone. Enter Piccolo, who shows up to due battle against Freeza. He nearly oozes power, arriving in a brilliant glow like a radioactive beast. His power escalates as the fight goes on, he and Freeza giving and gaining ground until the inevitable transformation happens once more.

Let's compare that to the fight against Gero and put more than just battle power under the spotlight. The most blatantly obvious factor here that undercuts any tension whatsoever in this scene is Vegeta. While this particular fight may belong to Piccolo, the core of the moment is certainly not his. A newly christened Super Saiyan stands among the spectators, not simply watching this fight but, more appropriately, allowing it to happen at all. Vegeta, who out classes everyone at the scene, is letting two kids fight in the sandbox until he gets bored enough to step in. Adding to this is the fact that Gero, following the destruction of 19, quickly became established as a coward. The threat of his power is thereby made nonexistent once Gero fled, knowing he could easily be defeated by Vegeta. We also have a greater number of Z Fighters at the scene. As well, Krillain carries a fresh supply of Senzue beans. Keep in mind too that, at this particular time, we are unaware of the existence of 17 and 18.

Putting together what we now know about this fight, I ask what would be the consequences if Piccolo loses to Gero. Using only what we are aware of at the moment, I say there really are none. Save perhaps the loss of the Dragon Balls should he die, but considering the favorable circumstances, that possibility seems unlikely. Talk about taking all gravity out of a fight...

This isn't so much a matter of strength as it is analyzing the way a situation unfolds. Delving into what may be fully a matter of opinion, I see a canyon sized gap in regards to relevance when we pit the situation with Gero against the battle with 2nd Form Freeza. The moments where Piccolo allows himself to fuse with another are not only highlights of his character, but are also quite possibly stand out moments of the series. The events that occure post-fusion are definitive and memorable, as well as highly regarded.

It's not just battle power as we saw against Gero. Nor is it simply relevance, which was shown when Piccolo sacrificed himself to save Gohan. Its about combining these two elements to create something more, and I see the mergers with Nail and Kami as outstanding examples of both.
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FutureSaiyan
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The moments where Piccolo allows himself to fuse with another are not only highlights of his character, but are also quite possibly stand out moments of the series


I disagree. Piccolo should be commended on holding off till so late in the series before seeking out his full power. Piccolo despite how naÔve he may have proven at times, was fully aware that reuniting with Kami would provide him with the ultimate power he seeked and could have put an end to all threats at the given scenario's (Goku, Raditz, Nappa, Vegeta, Frieza) although it is debatable how strong Piccolo would have become and whether he would truly have obtained power to take down all of the mentioned foes, it is clear that Piccolo's fusion boost would have placed him significantly above the threats at that point in time, yet Piccolo remained dedicated to improving on his own knowing what was at stake, not blindly nor stupidly, but a calculated challenge that Piccolo believed he could meet through training.
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Its about combining these two elements to create something more, and I see the mergers with Nail and Kami as outstanding examples of both.


Piccolo never intended on fusing with Kami, it was his main intention to help his friends at all costs and rise up to the challenge that faced him. Nail was the one who insisted on fusion, Piccolo had never considered this method and was fairly content with his own power.

Now if you consider Piccolo is warned 3 years in advance about a duo who wiped out everyone he knows, cares about or respects and didn't break a sweat, is that not cause enough to resort to fusion? knowing full well you yourself were killed. Yet Piccolo remained determined to make a change and spent the following 3 years training and improving himself to a level he felt was sufficient.

Now we have Piccolo after fusing and to reference cell "becoming complete", pursues yet another increase in power through the use of the room of spirit and time to attempt to meet the challenge ahead, and although not proving to reach quite the level he was hoping for, the increase in power sure saved him from being pummelled to a pulp by the cell juniors.

We have a character that despite all odds has never backed down and resorts to fusion as the last possible scenario. It is unfair to claim his power on fusion, as one instance is basically retrieving his own power (imagine if goku divided himself into two, everyone would say "Hey but its only half his power) so essentially Piccolo was only half his true power. Fusing with nail providing a relevant boost for a little while but quickly rendered irrelevant, and was of nails own accord as he was on his way to the afterlife anyway, providing piccolo with power was the best end for the warrior given the situation.

Now this character after facing his greatest threat all of a sudden decides there is no need for greater power and he is content with his current level knowing his friends have obtained levels beyond, in particular his rival, Goku?

I don't think so. Piccolo accepted his time as a warrior had come to a close, like any athlete does when they pass their peak and retire on a high, Piccolo decided to do the same. Piccolo had served as an important character from the time of dragonball and in many cases saved multiple lives. Even going as far as to uncover the secrets of one of the most potentially dangerous foes. Now reunited with Kami and a lot wiser and forgiving to the truth, Piccolo was aware his peak had been met and it was time for him to assist the warriors who still had ways to go, in achieving their best possible stature to meet the next upcoming challenge face on.

Not to mention with Piccolo's influence from Kami there was no doubt some obligation to serve more as a protector of Earth assisting Dende instead of fighting for own selfish benefit such as greater power. Piccolo focused more on serving as a mentor/father figure to Dende and someone who he could relate to. (Assuming he got tired of raising saiyans :p )
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Southern Gothic
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We don't need that scum.

I can provide another reason why Piccolo did not fuse with Kami at any point before or during the three year training period while prepairing for the androids. If you consider some points brought up by the Z Fighters right after Trunks arrives from the future, it can provide evidence for at least one other motivation. The idea that is discussed by them has to do with Dr. Gero. They want to stop him before the androids can even be created. The important part here is that this notion is quickly dismissed by them all.

The Z Fighters have the cure to the heart virus. News of the bleak future awaiting Earth has been delivered. They expect to have a healthy Super Saiyan Goku, ample time to train, and the element of surprise. The majority of the team, Piccolo included, want to challenge the androids and believe that they have favor on their side. Under these circumstances, the need to fuse is nowhere near as dire as it was during Namek or will be a few chapters from now.

Goku will be dying soon. A Super Saiyan will be, for the first time, defeated and surpassed. Piccolo will once again, even for a moment, be the last hope for Earth. This is what I mean by these events having an impact on his character. It's much more grand and memorable after fusion occurs. Piccolo's training, despite what numbers we can try to infer, is given very little attention. First, we see him do next to nothing on King Kai's planet. We get some sparring with Goku and Gohan during the 3 years. And then again, we get next to nothing when Piccolo enters the RoSaT. And even when Piccolo is fresh off his RoSaT training, he is only able to use this new power to struggle against Cell jr.

This is the same Piccolo who was, as you said in your post, complimented by Goku. Around this same period, however, Goku also slights Vegeta's power at the Kami's. Yet Piccolo and Vegeta end up relegated to the same role during the Cell Games. A quick remark by Goku about Piccolo's supposed growth does not equal a credible comment. As we see, the aftermath of Piccolo's training is so rarely granted any respect.

This is unlike the post-fusion Piccolo, who in each instance is always given big moments. Make no mistake, I accept that he put off the fusion for as long as possible. He was also clearly hesitant to fuse with Nail, only doing so out of necessity. That doesn't negate the crutch that the metbod of fusion soon became to his character. When that crutch was removed, all we had left was Piccolo from the Boo Saga.
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FutureSaiyan
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When that crutch was removed, all we had left was Piccolo from the Boo Saga.


Serving in his new role as

- The only one wise enough to recognise the Supreme Kai
- Guiding the new guardian of the Earth and watching over both him and the lookout
- Staring the strongest opponent ever faced and telling him to wait an hour, stalling long enough for the boys to receive some kind of power boost
- Training the (at the time) Last hope of the Earth in defeating a seemingly impossible evil

Re-instating my point of Piccolo's role in DBZ shifting due to his power growth potential (as a Namek originating from a race of peaceful and non warrior people) becoming too obsolete to remain relevant.

That is all from me, I believe I've made my point across. Now I wait for judgement day.
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Southern Gothic
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We don't need that scum.

FutureSaiyan
Mar 1 2015, 01:24 AM
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When that crutch was removed, all we had left was Piccolo from the Boo Saga.


Serving in his new role as

- The only one wise enough to recognise the Supreme Kai
- Guiding the new guardian of the Earth and watching over both him and the lookout
- Staring the strongest opponent ever faced and telling him to wait an hour, stalling long enough for the boys to receive some kind of power boost
- Training the (at the time) Last hope of the Earth in defeating a seemingly impossible evil

Re-instating my point of Piccolo's role in DBZ shifting due to his power growth potential (as a Namek originating from a race of peaceful and non warrior people) becoming too obsolete to remain relevant.

That is all from me, I believe I've made my point across. Now I wait for judgement day.
I agree with the points you made here about Piccolo's new role after the Cell Games. However, we are not debating whether or not he was useless after his power leveled off. Rather, we are debating why.

You listed many ways that Piccolo made himself usefull despite his lack of power. I would argue strongly that none of these were by immediate choice but rather as a matter of circumstance. He didn't simply choose to be mentoring and offering advice because that is what he liked. He was making up for his lack of power, and I believe superbly that if given the opportunity, Piccolo would have remained on the front lines battling it out with the strongest in the universe.

I end my argument here as well. Thanks to FutureSaiyan and the judges for taking the time for this.
Edited by Southern Gothic, Mar 1 2015, 03:29 AM.
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