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Drained SSJ Vegeta (Android Arc) vs #19 pre-absorption
Topic Started: Dec 31 2014, 04:17 AM (1,115 Views)
FutureProtagonist
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Quwrof Wrlccywrlir

Recall this line:

Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P6.1-2
Context: after Vegeta scares No.20 away with a bluff
Piccolo: “He really had lost a lot of stamina…when he confirmed that the androids sucked out energy with the palms of their hands…He ought to have lost if he had fought that No.20 guy…But he talked as if he still had something up his sleeve…Vegeta really is a fighting genius…He might have sur-surpassed…Goku…”

How would this Vegeta fare against #20's weaker counterpart?
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SSJ
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Same result. There's no reason to believe 19 pre is much weaker than 20.
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I do consider the possibility of #20 being quite a bit stronger than #19 initially. I'd hand this to Vegeta still, though.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

It would be the same thing as before. Remember No. 19 was taking Vegeta's energy...at the time in which Vegeta was losing energy. Yet Vegeta casually tore off his arms and violated him afterwards.

In short Vegeta Healthy>Vegeta Drained>No. 19 (With Both Goku and Vegeta's energy)>No. 19 with Goku's energy>No. 19 (Pre-Absorption)

That's what the battle pretty much says isn't it? Despite the fact that Vegeta was drained and No. 19 was getting super charged,t he latter couldn't do a thing to Vegeta in the end. So I'm not sure how a far weaker version of No. 19 can hope to take on this "Drained Vegeta" When a much stronger form couldn't do it.

Edited by EMIYA, Dec 31 2014, 03:35 PM.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Father Brofist
Dec 31 2014, 03:34 PM
It would be the same thing as before. Remember No. 19 was taking Vegeta's energy...at the time in which Vegeta was losing energy. Yet Vegeta casually tore off his arms and violated him afterwards.

In short Vegeta Healthy>Vegeta Drained>No. 19 (With Both Goku and Vegeta's energy)>No. 19 with Goku's energy>No. 19 (Pre-Absorption)

That's what the battle pretty much says isn't it? Despite the fact that Vegeta was drained and No. 19 was getting super charged,t he latter couldn't do a thing to Vegeta in the end. So I'm not sure how a far weaker version of No. 19 can hope to take on this "Drained Vegeta" When a much stronger form couldn't do it.

Would you argue that Vegeta lost most of his ki using the Big Bang Attack, then? When Vegeta scares off #20, Piccolo says that he was bluffing, which means that #20 (Pre) > SSJ Vegeta (Drained)

If Vegeta lost most of his ki using the BBA, then that's fine, if not a little strange. However, if he lost most of it to #19, then that would make #19 (Post-absorptions) extremely powerful.
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Nagito Komaeda
Dec 31 2014, 05:02 PM
Father Brofist
Dec 31 2014, 03:34 PM
It would be the same thing as before. Remember No. 19 was taking Vegeta's energy...at the time in which Vegeta was losing energy. Yet Vegeta casually tore off his arms and violated him afterwards.

In short Vegeta Healthy>Vegeta Drained>No. 19 (With Both Goku and Vegeta's energy)>No. 19 with Goku's energy>No. 19 (Pre-Absorption)

That's what the battle pretty much says isn't it? Despite the fact that Vegeta was drained and No. 19 was getting super charged,t he latter couldn't do a thing to Vegeta in the end. So I'm not sure how a far weaker version of No. 19 can hope to take on this "Drained Vegeta" When a much stronger form couldn't do it.

Would you argue that Vegeta lost most of his ki using the Big Bang Attack, then? When Vegeta scares off #20, Piccolo says that he was bluffing, which means that #20 (Pre) > SSJ Vegeta (Drained)

If Vegeta lost most of his ki using the BBA, then that's fine, if not a little strange. However, if he lost most of it to #19, then that would make #19 (Post-absorptions) extremely powerful.
It was stated that he lost a good chunk of it when #19 grabbed hold of him.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Pyrus
Dec 31 2014, 05:40 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Dec 31 2014, 05:02 PM
Father Brofist
Dec 31 2014, 03:34 PM
It would be the same thing as before. Remember No. 19 was taking Vegeta's energy...at the time in which Vegeta was losing energy. Yet Vegeta casually tore off his arms and violated him afterwards.

In short Vegeta Healthy>Vegeta Drained>No. 19 (With Both Goku and Vegeta's energy)>No. 19 with Goku's energy>No. 19 (Pre-Absorption)

That's what the battle pretty much says isn't it? Despite the fact that Vegeta was drained and No. 19 was getting super charged,t he latter couldn't do a thing to Vegeta in the end. So I'm not sure how a far weaker version of No. 19 can hope to take on this "Drained Vegeta" When a much stronger form couldn't do it.

Would you argue that Vegeta lost most of his ki using the Big Bang Attack, then? When Vegeta scares off #20, Piccolo says that he was bluffing, which means that #20 (Pre) > SSJ Vegeta (Drained)

If Vegeta lost most of his ki using the BBA, then that's fine, if not a little strange. However, if he lost most of it to #19, then that would make #19 (Post-absorptions) extremely powerful.
It was stated that he lost a good chunk of it when #19 grabbed hold of him.
What would you define as a 'good chunk'?

#20 (Pre) > SSJ Vegeta (Drained) > #19 (Post-Absorptions)

Would that be the chain that you follow? I dunno, it just seems weird that Vegeta loses enough energy to become weaker than #20, yet #19 (Post) is still weaker than Vegeta. Especially considering that the Kamehameha took him past his previous level of power. Add in the power he got from Goku and Vegeta and it seems a little odd that he'd still be that weak.
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FutureProtagonist
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Quwrof Wrlccywrlir

I think he used most of his remaining energy amping that Big Bang. I reckon #19 and Vegeta weren't far off, but #19 lost his hands, so he was on the run. Vegeta took this chance to gain the advantage via the Big Bang, but suffered for it.
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...

We saw this

tha drained vegeta simply beat the living **** out of android 19. The further ssj drain didnt help 19 much He loses badly

ssj vegeta>>20 full>drained ssj vegeta>19 max>20 pre>ssj sick goku full>19 pre>drained sick ssj goku

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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

I mean, if you want to say that after Vegeta used the Big Bang Attack, that dropped his power down to below Pre-No.19 I suppose there's no problem with that. I'm just pointing out what we saw and that the fact that Drained Vegeta (Pre-Big Bang Attack)>Post Vegeta No.19>Post Goku No. 19>Pre-No.19.

Either way I think Vegeta has a much better chance at winning this fight than No. 19. The fact No. 19 increased his power greatly through each absorption and yet Vegeta still remained signifcantly above that even at a weakened state just gives the indication that Vegeta's going to drop a lot to be weaker than Pre No. 19.
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Izanagi!

Father Brofist
Dec 31 2014, 06:40 PM
I mean, if you want to say that after Vegeta used the Big Bang Attack, that dropped his power down to below Pre-No.19 I suppose there's no problem with that. I'm just pointing out what we saw and that the fact that Drained Vegeta (Pre-Big Bang Attack)>Post Vegeta No.19>Post Goku No. 19>Pre-No.19.

Either way I think Vegeta has a much better chance at winning this fight than No. 19. The fact No. 19 increased his power greatly through each absorption and yet Vegeta still remained signifcantly above that even at a weakened state just gives the indication that Vegeta's going to drop a lot to be weaker than Pre No. 19.
I always like topics about the Androids because they always lead to some interesting discussion.

Are the Androids capable of enhancing their bodies with ki? For example, a fighter would use ki to enhance his body so he wouldn't take as much damage from an attack, correct? 'Increasing their durability through the use of ki', I guess you could call it.

Human Fighter's Durability (w/ki) >>> Human Fighter's Durability (w/o Ki)

If the Androids' ki doesn't help enhance their durability, then Vegeta's feat of ripping #19's arms off doesn't really mean much. You could have this, for example;

#19 (Post-absorptions) > SSJ Vegeta (Drained) > #19's Durability

He's made of some kind of metal material, I'm guessing, so there's circuitry and such instead of muscle and bone. If Ki can't enhance that (which I'm doubting that it can), then #19's durability wouldn't be anything to write home about, even if he absorbed enough energy to reach Boo saga levels.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

While I can understand the concept of how they couldn't, being made of metal and stuff, I would have to say they could indeed increase their durability through ki.

Let's think about, but its not just durability, but any kind of physical ability.

Just as with the humans or Saiyans, everyone has a limitation that their physical body can take. I dare say that the cyborgs actually should have better physical capabilities than the Saiyans, humans, etc, if you take away the whole ki aspect. I mean it makes sense to say that a machine can perform more physically strenuous labor than flesh and blood bodies. And as we know later in the Boo Arc, there is a limitation to the physical prowess of a person, and that limitation is broken by the usage of ki.

So take No. 19 without any ki. His natural physical strength might be at 10, his natural mechanical endurance and durability might be a 10 as well. If absorbing ki didn't help to increase these aspects, it would be strange for him to continue to fighting in direct combat. He'd want to fight at a distance, firing off strong ki blasts if his body isn't getting the advantages that ki usages usually does.

That's how I see it at least.
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Even after absorbing "a lot" of Vegeta's power, #19 was still mincemeat to the Saiyan.

Chapter 344 (DBZ 150), P11.1
Context: after breaking No.19’s hands off
Vegeta: “You sucked out a lot, but now you can’t do that anymore…”

Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P6.1-2
Context: after Vegeta scares No.20 away with a bluff
Piccolo: “He really had lost a lot of stamina…when he confirmed that the androids sucked out energy with the palms of their hands…He ought to have lost if he had fought that No.20 guy…But he talked as if he still had something up his sleeve…Vegeta really is a fighting genius…He might have sur-surpassed…Goku…”


#19 (post-Vegeta) > #19 (post-Goku) > #19 (post-Kamehameha) > SSj Goku (post-Kamehameha) > #19

#19 was stated to have powered up drastically by the Kamehameha while SSj Goku decreased remarkably, and he continued to drain Goku's power until Vegeta came in for the save, giving him even more, yet he was still humiliated by a fresh SSj Vegeta. Then he acquired a hefty amount of Vegeta's power and was still dismantled.

SSj Vegeta > SSj Vegeta (post-#19's hands) > #19 (post-Vegeta) >/< #20 > SSj Vegeta (post-BBA)

The gap is seemingly quite large, but how much do we know about Vegeta's chances against #19 after he'd had a good chunk of his ki sucked away? The android cowered in fear while Vegeta remained quite confident, but then again, he decided to use the Big Bang Attack rather than continuing to engage in close quarters combat. This could mean nothing, really, since it's in Vegeta's nature to show off, especially with Super Saiyan fresh off the press for him, but it's something to think about.
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