|
Replies:
|
|
+ Solid Snake
|
Dec 29 2014, 10:06 PM
Post #61
|
滅Are you frightened?
- Posts:
- 8,961
- Group:
- Elite Member
- Member
- #6,739
- Joined:
- September 11, 2011
- Gender
- Not Specified
- Favourite Anime
- Dragon ball, z, gt, Naruto & Shippuden, Bleach, Rosario + Vampire
- What Browser do you use?
- Kept you waiting huh?
- Favourite Manga
- Dragon Ball, Naruto, and Bleach
|
I only post about the energies both series uses, in all honesty, Narutoverse wouldn't be capable of manipulating DBZ's (or any other non-Naruto related work) characters because of the differences each hold. Now you (the staff may make it seem fair but that isn't the case because no other work (aside from Naruto) have beings messing with their mind using chakra.
Now their physical energy attacks will be more useful in terms of meaning of attacks because they can actually use their chakra to attack, as can any other series use their respective attacks to another.
Frankly, Naruto won't be able to do nothing on a mental plane unless you specifically state that the said characters are fighting on their terms. Otherwise that rule needs to be dropped cause it's bogus.
|
 Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu
SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig SUPER THANKS CELL
Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story
Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
|
| |
|
+ Ssj3vegito96
|
Dec 29 2014, 10:10 PM
Post #62
|
- Posts:
- 10,327
- Group:
- Elite Member
- Member
- #10,438
- Joined:
- November 2, 2013
- Gender
- Male
- Country
- United States
- Favourite Anime
- Dragon ball/Z/GT/S, Fullmetal Alchemist:Brotherhood, One Punch Man
- Favourite Manga
- DB/Z/S
|
The rule says the energy is the same. It doesn't say they work the same. So the rule doesn't need to be dropped anyway
|
IT'S CHEESE

Spoiler: click to toggle Top 7 favorite dbz heroes: 1. Sometimes it goku sometimes it's vegeta 2. ^ 3. Teen gohan 4. Future trunks 5. Piccolo 6. Adult gohan 7. Bardock
|
| |
|
* Yu Narukami
|
Dec 29 2014, 10:10 PM
Post #63
|
Izanagi!
- Posts:
- 12,330
- Group:
- Retired Staff
- Member
- #6,446
- Joined:
- July 3, 2011
- Gender
- Not Specified
- Country
- None
|
- xGOKUdaFALLENx
- Dec 29 2014, 10:06 PM
I only post about the energies both series uses, in all honesty, Narutoverse wouldn't be capable of manipulating DBZ's (or any other non-Naruto related work) characters because of the differences each hold. Now you (the staff may make it seem fair but that isn't the case because no other work (aside from Naruto) have beings messing with their mind using chakra.
Now their physical energy attacks will be more useful in terms of meaning of attacks because they can actually use their chakra to attack, as can any other series use their respective attacks to another.
Frankly, Naruto won't be able to do nothing on a mental plane unless you specifically state that the said characters are fighting on their terms. Otherwise that rule needs to be dropped cause it's bogus. So, they're not allowed to use Genjutsu because DBZ hasn't shown anything like that? Taking away one of Naruto's advantages because DBZ hasn't shown something like it isn't very fair, is it?
|
|
|
| |
|
+ Ssj3vegito96
|
Dec 29 2014, 10:16 PM
Post #64
|
- Posts:
- 10,327
- Group:
- Elite Member
- Member
- #10,438
- Joined:
- November 2, 2013
- Gender
- Male
- Country
- United States
- Favourite Anime
- Dragon ball/Z/GT/S, Fullmetal Alchemist:Brotherhood, One Punch Man
- Favourite Manga
- DB/Z/S
|
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 29 2014, 10:10 PM
- xGOKUdaFALLENx
- Dec 29 2014, 10:06 PM
I only post about the energies both series uses, in all honesty, Narutoverse wouldn't be capable of manipulating DBZ's (or any other non-Naruto related work) characters because of the differences each hold. Now you (the staff may make it seem fair but that isn't the case because no other work (aside from Naruto) have beings messing with their mind using chakra.
Now their physical energy attacks will be more useful in terms of meaning of attacks because they can actually use their chakra to attack, as can any other series use their respective attacks to another.
Frankly, Naruto won't be able to do nothing on a mental plane unless you specifically state that the said characters are fighting on their terms. Otherwise that rule needs to be dropped cause it's bogus.
So, they're not allowed to use Genjutsu because DBZ hasn't shown anything like that? Taking away one of Naruto's advantages because DBZ hasn't shown something like it isn't very fair, is it? He's not saying they aren't allowed to use genjutsu. He's saying genjutsu won't work because, although ki and chakra are basically the same energy, ki doesn't flow through the body the same way chakra does
|
IT'S CHEESE

Spoiler: click to toggle Top 7 favorite dbz heroes: 1. Sometimes it goku sometimes it's vegeta 2. ^ 3. Teen gohan 4. Future trunks 5. Piccolo 6. Adult gohan 7. Bardock
|
| |
|
* Yu Narukami
|
Dec 29 2014, 10:20 PM
Post #65
|
Izanagi!
- Posts:
- 12,330
- Group:
- Retired Staff
- Member
- #6,446
- Joined:
- July 3, 2011
- Gender
- Not Specified
- Country
- None
|
- Ssj3vegito96
- Dec 29 2014, 10:16 PM
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 29 2014, 10:10 PM
- xGOKUdaFALLENx
- Dec 29 2014, 10:06 PM
I only post about the energies both series uses, in all honesty, Narutoverse wouldn't be capable of manipulating DBZ's (or any other non-Naruto related work) characters because of the differences each hold. Now you (the staff may make it seem fair but that isn't the case because no other work (aside from Naruto) have beings messing with their mind using chakra.
Now their physical energy attacks will be more useful in terms of meaning of attacks because they can actually use their chakra to attack, as can any other series use their respective attacks to another.
Frankly, Naruto won't be able to do nothing on a mental plane unless you specifically state that the said characters are fighting on their terms. Otherwise that rule needs to be dropped cause it's bogus.
So, they're not allowed to use Genjutsu because DBZ hasn't shown anything like that? Taking away one of Naruto's advantages because DBZ hasn't shown something like it isn't very fair, is it?
He's not saying they aren't allowed to use genjutsu. He's saying genjutsu won't work because, although ki and chakra are basically the same energy, ki doesn't flow through the body the same way chakra does How exactly does ki run differently through the body? Regardless, it doesn't even matter if it runs differently; it'll still work. Genjutsu itself has nothing to do with how chakra flows.
|
|
|
| |
|
BioBroly288
|
Dec 29 2014, 10:21 PM
Post #66
|
Saiyan Of Legend
- Posts:
- 602
- Group:
- Member
- Member
- #9,511
- Joined:
- May 18, 2013
- Gender
- Male
- Favourite Anime
- DBZ
- What Browser do you use?
- Google Chrome
- Favourite Manga
- DBZ
|
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 29 2014, 10:03 PM
- King Kakarot
- Dec 29 2014, 09:33 PM
- BioBroly288
- Dec 29 2014, 09:30 PM
- King Kakarot
- Dec 29 2014, 09:26 PM
Anyways this fusion still gets wrecked by Freeza (base) 
Have them losing to weaker, they have mountain++ durability, a focused and charged ki blast from any high tier in db or low tier in dbz can do alott o them
Really? They're that weak? I could've sworn naruto was at least planet lvl
I told you already, Maito Gai is star-level+ Trolllllllllll. Gai hasnt shown anything near moon level much less star.
|
|
| |
|
+ Solid Snake
|
Dec 29 2014, 10:23 PM
Post #67
|
滅Are you frightened?
- Posts:
- 8,961
- Group:
- Elite Member
- Member
- #6,739
- Joined:
- September 11, 2011
- Gender
- Not Specified
- Favourite Anime
- Dragon ball, z, gt, Naruto & Shippuden, Bleach, Rosario + Vampire
- What Browser do you use?
- Kept you waiting huh?
- Favourite Manga
- Dragon Ball, Naruto, and Bleach
|
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 29 2014, 10:10 PM
- xGOKUdaFALLENx
- Dec 29 2014, 10:06 PM
I only post about the energies both series uses, in all honesty, Narutoverse wouldn't be capable of manipulating DBZ's (or any other non-Naruto related work) characters because of the differences each hold. Now you (the staff may make it seem fair but that isn't the case because no other work (aside from Naruto) have beings messing with their mind using chakra.
Now their physical energy attacks will be more useful in terms of meaning of attacks because they can actually use their chakra to attack, as can any other series use their respective attacks to another.
Frankly, Naruto won't be able to do nothing on a mental plane unless you specifically state that the said characters are fighting on their terms. Otherwise that rule needs to be dropped cause it's bogus.
So, they're not allowed to use Genjutsu because DBZ hasn't shown anything like that? Taking away one of Naruto's advantages because DBZ hasn't shown something like it isn't very fair, is it? Doesn't just goes for DBZ though man, I'm not just defending them but a lot of others verses. Going by that logic would have Sasuke manipulating Galactus' mind (despite him using Cosmic energy and nigh-omnipotent).
|
 Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu
SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig SUPER THANKS CELL
Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story
Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
|
| |
|
* Yu Narukami
|
Dec 29 2014, 10:24 PM
Post #68
|
Izanagi!
- Posts:
- 12,330
- Group:
- Retired Staff
- Member
- #6,446
- Joined:
- July 3, 2011
- Gender
- Not Specified
- Country
- None
|
- xGOKUdaFALLENx
- Dec 29 2014, 10:23 PM
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 29 2014, 10:10 PM
- xGOKUdaFALLENx
- Dec 29 2014, 10:06 PM
I only post about the energies both series uses, in all honesty, Narutoverse wouldn't be capable of manipulating DBZ's (or any other non-Naruto related work) characters because of the differences each hold. Now you (the staff may make it seem fair but that isn't the case because no other work (aside from Naruto) have beings messing with their mind using chakra.
Now their physical energy attacks will be more useful in terms of meaning of attacks because they can actually use their chakra to attack, as can any other series use their respective attacks to another.
Frankly, Naruto won't be able to do nothing on a mental plane unless you specifically state that the said characters are fighting on their terms. Otherwise that rule needs to be dropped cause it's bogus.
So, they're not allowed to use Genjutsu because DBZ hasn't shown anything like that? Taking away one of Naruto's advantages because DBZ hasn't shown something like it isn't very fair, is it?
Doesn't just goes for DBZ though man, I'm not just defending them but a lot of others verses. Going by that logic would have Sasuke manipulating Galactus' mind (despite him using Cosmic energy and nigh-omnipotent). I can't say anything about Galactus because I'm not sure about whether he has any mental defences or not, but if he doesn't, then sure, why not?
|
|
|
| |
|
Mihawk
|
Dec 29 2014, 10:25 PM
Post #69
|
- Posts:
- 4,804
- Group:
- Prodigy
- Member
- #4,783
- Joined:
- March 2, 2010
- Gender
- Not Specified
|
Although the problem with that should be obvious... For these fights to happen we're always equalizing things all the time even though they're clearly not drawn equal: speed of sound, mountains, planets, etc. You essentially have to use your imagination for these to even happen. That includes equalizing energy, etc.
No one here is gonna buy into the entire "planet level" circlejerk here. It's a certain aspect of a fight, but it's not all that goes into it.
If you don't like it there's always other forums such as moviecodec and neoseeker where people just sit around and circlejerk mountain/planet/solar system level calcs all day.
|

|
| |
|
+ Solid Snake
|
Dec 29 2014, 10:26 PM
Post #70
|
滅Are you frightened?
- Posts:
- 8,961
- Group:
- Elite Member
- Member
- #6,739
- Joined:
- September 11, 2011
- Gender
- Not Specified
- Favourite Anime
- Dragon ball, z, gt, Naruto & Shippuden, Bleach, Rosario + Vampire
- What Browser do you use?
- Kept you waiting huh?
- Favourite Manga
- Dragon Ball, Naruto, and Bleach
|
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 29 2014, 10:20 PM
- Ssj3vegito96
- Dec 29 2014, 10:16 PM
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 29 2014, 10:10 PM
- xGOKUdaFALLENx
- Dec 29 2014, 10:06 PM
I only post about the energies both series uses, in all honesty, Narutoverse wouldn't be capable of manipulating DBZ's (or any other non-Naruto related work) characters because of the differences each hold. Now you (the staff may make it seem fair but that isn't the case because no other work (aside from Naruto) have beings messing with their mind using chakra.
Now their physical energy attacks will be more useful in terms of meaning of attacks because they can actually use their chakra to attack, as can any other series use their respective attacks to another.
Frankly, Naruto won't be able to do nothing on a mental plane unless you specifically state that the said characters are fighting on their terms. Otherwise that rule needs to be dropped cause it's bogus.
So, they're not allowed to use Genjutsu because DBZ hasn't shown anything like that? Taking away one of Naruto's advantages because DBZ hasn't shown something like it isn't very fair, is it?
He's not saying they aren't allowed to use genjutsu. He's saying genjutsu won't work because, although ki and chakra are basically the same energy, ki doesn't flow through the body the same way chakra does
How exactly does ki run differently through the body? Regardless, it doesn't even matter if it runs differently; it'll still work. Genjutsu itself has nothing to do with how chakra flows. It'll still work huh? Okay...
Despite both series using different types of energies, genjutsu will still mess with their Ki, even though both are clearly different.
|
 Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu
SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig SUPER THANKS CELL
Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story
Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
|
| |
|
* Yu Narukami
|
Dec 29 2014, 10:27 PM
Post #71
|
Izanagi!
- Posts:
- 12,330
- Group:
- Retired Staff
- Member
- #6,446
- Joined:
- July 3, 2011
- Gender
- Not Specified
- Country
- None
|
- xGOKUdaFALLENx
- Dec 29 2014, 10:26 PM
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 29 2014, 10:20 PM
- Ssj3vegito96
- Dec 29 2014, 10:16 PM
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 29 2014, 10:10 PM
- xGOKUdaFALLENx
- Dec 29 2014, 10:06 PM
I only post about the energies both series uses, in all honesty, Narutoverse wouldn't be capable of manipulating DBZ's (or any other non-Naruto related work) characters because of the differences each hold. Now you (the staff may make it seem fair but that isn't the case because no other work (aside from Naruto) have beings messing with their mind using chakra.
Now their physical energy attacks will be more useful in terms of meaning of attacks because they can actually use their chakra to attack, as can any other series use their respective attacks to another.
Frankly, Naruto won't be able to do nothing on a mental plane unless you specifically state that the said characters are fighting on their terms. Otherwise that rule needs to be dropped cause it's bogus.
So, they're not allowed to use Genjutsu because DBZ hasn't shown anything like that? Taking away one of Naruto's advantages because DBZ hasn't shown something like it isn't very fair, is it?
He's not saying they aren't allowed to use genjutsu. He's saying genjutsu won't work because, although ki and chakra are basically the same energy, ki doesn't flow through the body the same way chakra does
How exactly does ki run differently through the body? Regardless, it doesn't even matter if it runs differently; it'll still work. Genjutsu itself has nothing to do with how chakra flows.
It'll still work huh? Okay... Despite both series using different types of energies, genjutsu will still mess with their Ki, even though both are clearly different. Yup, because for the purposes of actually having a debate, they're treated as the same thing. You can say that they shouldn't all you like, but they are. Otherwise every single debate would be ''this type of energy against that type of energy''.
|
|
|
| |
|
BioBroly288
|
Dec 29 2014, 10:28 PM
Post #72
|
Saiyan Of Legend
- Posts:
- 602
- Group:
- Member
- Member
- #9,511
- Joined:
- May 18, 2013
- Gender
- Male
- Favourite Anime
- DBZ
- What Browser do you use?
- Google Chrome
- Favourite Manga
- DBZ
|
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 29 2014, 10:20 PM
- Ssj3vegito96
- Dec 29 2014, 10:16 PM
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 29 2014, 10:10 PM
- xGOKUdaFALLENx
- Dec 29 2014, 10:06 PM
I only post about the energies both series uses, in all honesty, Narutoverse wouldn't be capable of manipulating DBZ's (or any other non-Naruto related work) characters because of the differences each hold. Now you (the staff may make it seem fair but that isn't the case because no other work (aside from Naruto) have beings messing with their mind using chakra.
Now their physical energy attacks will be more useful in terms of meaning of attacks because they can actually use their chakra to attack, as can any other series use their respective attacks to another.
Frankly, Naruto won't be able to do nothing on a mental plane unless you specifically state that the said characters are fighting on their terms. Otherwise that rule needs to be dropped cause it's bogus.
So, they're not allowed to use Genjutsu because DBZ hasn't shown anything like that? Taking away one of Naruto's advantages because DBZ hasn't shown something like it isn't very fair, is it?
He's not saying they aren't allowed to use genjutsu. He's saying genjutsu won't work because, although ki and chakra are basically the same energy, ki doesn't flow through the body the same way chakra does
How exactly does ki run differently through the body? Regardless, it doesn't even matter if it runs differently; it'll still work. Genjutsu itself has nothing to do with how chakra flows. Yes it does if you know anything on how gen jutsu works. Dbz ki is a life force so the ki dosent flow in ones cerebrual nervous system. Every ones chakra flows in ones cerebural nervous system so if they try to get in a genjutsu it will manipulate ones chakara and makes the enemies witness false illusions because of chakaras connection to that nervous system. Though ki and chakara are the "same"in the forum, dbz donth ave there source connected to there cerbural nervous system meaning genjutsu is useless
|
|
| |
|
+ Solid Snake
|
Dec 29 2014, 10:30 PM
Post #73
|
滅Are you frightened?
- Posts:
- 8,961
- Group:
- Elite Member
- Member
- #6,739
- Joined:
- September 11, 2011
- Gender
- Not Specified
- Favourite Anime
- Dragon ball, z, gt, Naruto & Shippuden, Bleach, Rosario + Vampire
- What Browser do you use?
- Kept you waiting huh?
- Favourite Manga
- Dragon Ball, Naruto, and Bleach
|
- wolffanghameha
- Dec 29 2014, 10:25 PM
Although the problem with that should be obvious... For these fights to happen we're always equalizing things all the time even though they're clearly not drawn equal: speed of sound, mountains, planets, etc. You essentially have to use your imagination for these to even happen. That includes equalizing energy, etc.
No one here is gonna buy into the entire "planet level" circlejerk here. It's a certain aspect of a fight, but it's not all that goes into it.
If you don't like it there's always other forums such as moviecodec and neoseeker where people just sit around and circlejerk mountain/planet/solar system level calcs all day. But this is an equalized battle is it? That's the problem, the OP just asks how far they'd get in DB/Z/GT. You can use you're imagination but everyone who do these battles will realistically see this is a stomp. That's all it is.
I don't care if I like the rule or not, but y'all know it's bogus stuff cause not everyone specifically stated to be equalized are not from Naruto.
The rule is s*** all I'm saying.
|
 Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu
SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig SUPER THANKS CELL
Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story
Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
|
| |
|
* Yu Narukami
|
Dec 29 2014, 10:31 PM
Post #74
|
Izanagi!
- Posts:
- 12,330
- Group:
- Retired Staff
- Member
- #6,446
- Joined:
- July 3, 2011
- Gender
- Not Specified
- Country
- None
|
- BioBroly288
- Dec 29 2014, 10:28 PM
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 29 2014, 10:20 PM
- Ssj3vegito96
- Dec 29 2014, 10:16 PM
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 29 2014, 10:10 PM
- xGOKUdaFALLENx
- Dec 29 2014, 10:06 PM
I only post about the energies both series uses, in all honesty, Narutoverse wouldn't be capable of manipulating DBZ's (or any other non-Naruto related work) characters because of the differences each hold. Now you (the staff may make it seem fair but that isn't the case because no other work (aside from Naruto) have beings messing with their mind using chakra.
Now their physical energy attacks will be more useful in terms of meaning of attacks because they can actually use their chakra to attack, as can any other series use their respective attacks to another.
Frankly, Naruto won't be able to do nothing on a mental plane unless you specifically state that the said characters are fighting on their terms. Otherwise that rule needs to be dropped cause it's bogus.
So, they're not allowed to use Genjutsu because DBZ hasn't shown anything like that? Taking away one of Naruto's advantages because DBZ hasn't shown something like it isn't very fair, is it?
He's not saying they aren't allowed to use genjutsu. He's saying genjutsu won't work because, although ki and chakra are basically the same energy, ki doesn't flow through the body the same way chakra does
How exactly does ki run differently through the body? Regardless, it doesn't even matter if it runs differently; it'll still work. Genjutsu itself has nothing to do with how chakra flows.
Yes it does if you know anything on how gen jutsu works. Dbz ki is a life force so the ki dosent flow in ones cerebrual nervous system. Every ones chakra flows in ones cerebural nervous system so if they try to get in a genjutsu it will manipulate ones chakara and makes the enemies witness false illusions because of chakaras connection to that nervous system. Though ki and chakara are the "same"in the forum, dbz donth ave there source connected to there cerbural nervous system meaning genjutsu is useless And you know that it doesn't run through the cerebral nervous system...how? Did Toriyama really go into such detail when he talked about ki in DBZ?
|
|
|
| |
|
+ Solid Snake
|
Dec 29 2014, 10:34 PM
Post #75
|
滅Are you frightened?
- Posts:
- 8,961
- Group:
- Elite Member
- Member
- #6,739
- Joined:
- September 11, 2011
- Gender
- Not Specified
- Favourite Anime
- Dragon ball, z, gt, Naruto & Shippuden, Bleach, Rosario + Vampire
- What Browser do you use?
- Kept you waiting huh?
- Favourite Manga
- Dragon Ball, Naruto, and Bleach
|
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 29 2014, 10:27 PM
- xGOKUdaFALLENx
- Dec 29 2014, 10:26 PM
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 29 2014, 10:20 PM
- Ssj3vegito96
- Dec 29 2014, 10:16 PM
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 29 2014, 10:10 PM
- xGOKUdaFALLENx
- Dec 29 2014, 10:06 PM
I only post about the energies both series uses, in all honesty, Narutoverse wouldn't be capable of manipulating DBZ's (or any other non-Naruto related work) characters because of the differences each hold. Now you (the staff may make it seem fair but that isn't the case because no other work (aside from Naruto) have beings messing with their mind using chakra.
Now their physical energy attacks will be more useful in terms of meaning of attacks because they can actually use their chakra to attack, as can any other series use their respective attacks to another.
Frankly, Naruto won't be able to do nothing on a mental plane unless you specifically state that the said characters are fighting on their terms. Otherwise that rule needs to be dropped cause it's bogus.
So, they're not allowed to use Genjutsu because DBZ hasn't shown anything like that? Taking away one of Naruto's advantages because DBZ hasn't shown something like it isn't very fair, is it?
He's not saying they aren't allowed to use genjutsu. He's saying genjutsu won't work because, although ki and chakra are basically the same energy, ki doesn't flow through the body the same way chakra does
How exactly does ki run differently through the body? Regardless, it doesn't even matter if it runs differently; it'll still work. Genjutsu itself has nothing to do with how chakra flows.
It'll still work huh? Okay... Despite both series using different types of energies, genjutsu will still mess with their Ki, even though both are clearly different.
Yup, because for the purposes of actually having a debate, they're treated as the same thing. You can say that they shouldn't all you like, but they are. Otherwise every single debate would be ''this type of energy against that type of energy''. You can have a debate but that doesn't mean each verse should automatically be equaled to another in energy. You can equalize the fundamentals (strengh, speed, and durability etc) but how can you find the logic to equal these different energies when they're both stated different by the authors?
|
 Shinnozou tomete kureru! ~ Evil Ryu
SSJG and SSJ4 Goku Sig SUPER THANKS CELL
Dragon Ball: Ultimate Road Story
Naruto and Goku's Adventure Story
|
| |
| 0 users reading this topic
|