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Toriyama and Super Saiyan
Topic Started: Dec 21 2014, 10:34 PM (1,015 Views)
SSJ
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So he said that he saw it as being a 10x boost despite the story requiring a 50x boost [for the first transformation]. Was he unaware that Oozaru was a 10x multiplier? Was he unaware that he had shown Kaioken 10 and 20 prior to Super Saiyan? Why did he envision it as a 10x boost for the first time? That just seems so unimpressive.
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Professor Gohan
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I'm pretty sure he further mentioned that he was aware of all that. I can't remember what he came up with at the end, but I think I remember him knowing about all that. I'm talking about an interview.
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StrawHatCrew
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He meant 10x the 20x Kaio-Ken. ;)
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Vertical
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"Kaioken doubles your blah blah blah"

Whatever the user considers a comfortable level of Kaioken (x2 @Vegeta, x10 @Freeza) doubles their power. Their absolute maximum level (x4 and x20) doubles that again...

SSJ = 10x.

All problems solved.
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Super Saiyan
Dec 21 2014, 10:34 PM
So he said that he saw it as being a 10x boost despite the story requiring a 50x boost [for the first transformation]. Was he unaware that Oozaru was a 10x multiplier? Was he unaware that he had shown Kaioken 10 and 20 prior to Super Saiyan? Why did he envision it as a 10x boost for the first time? That just seems so unimpressive.
Something worth mentioning is that Kaioken only gives you a quick burst while Super Saiyan is sustainable for as long as your ki holds up.

It's not so much the power of the technique as much as how safe and effective it is.

I don't consider Super Saiyan to be 50x simply for continuity. Toriyama also envisioned it as 10, so all feats in the manga in my mind would be as if they were 10, not 50.
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Fearless Saiyajin
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Legendary of Super Saiyan

I just go with power scalling.
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If the original author truly felt that Super Saiyan should be officially considered something other than a 50x boost, then I don't think all these books from Shueisha would keep saying it is. Even the Super Exciting Guides, which is where this quote from Toriyama came from, restated the 50x boost and even gave us the boosts for SS2 and SS3 on top of it.

So I suspect Toriyama's not really trying to make any mathematical statement, since in his quote he also does say it was established as a 50x boost. I think he's just noting how it felt to him as he drew, in more of a "50x is difficult to quantify in your head" sense.
Edited by Kaboom, Dec 22 2014, 03:56 PM.
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Kaboom
Dec 22 2014, 03:53 PM
If the original author truly felt that Super Saiyan should be officially considered something other than a 50x boost, then I don't think all these books from Shueisha would keep saying it is. Even the Super Exciting Guides, which is where this quote from Toriyama came from, restated the 50x boost and even gave us the boosts for SS2 and SS3 on top of it.

So I suspect Toriyama's not really trying to make any mathematical statement, since in his quote he also does say it was established as a 50x boost. I think he's just noting how it felt to him as he drew, in more of a "50x is difficult to quantify in your head" sense.
Guidebooks make up whatever they want though. And Toriyama isn't the kind of guy to correct other people about anything, heck he once said he only stepped in on the Anime when he felt they were going too far in the wrong direction, and then when you consider what he did let them put in... He's really lenient on what others do with his work because he cares purely about entertaining, not consistency or "canon".

The quote is actually vague enough that it might be referring to x10 of Kaioken x10. Toriyama says he envisioned Goku to be 10-fold "what he had been to that point". That could be interpreted as:
Base, as that's Goku's base (duh) power.
Kaioken x10, as Goku spent the majority of the fight in this form, and thus "until that point" seems to fit.
Kaiokxen 20, if it means of Goku's max shown power.
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Clearin
Dec 22 2014, 04:09 PM
Guidebooks make up whatever they want though. And Toriyama isn't the kind of guy to correct other people about anything, heck he once said he only stepped in on the Anime when he felt they were going too far in the wrong direction, and then when you consider what he did let them put in... He's really lenient on what others do with his work because he cares purely about entertaining, not consistency or "canon".
Yeah, that's true, to an extent. But the guidebooks have yet to actually go directly against Toriyama's word in any way. Which is why I suspect Toriyama wasn't actually trying to make any sort of concrete in-universe revelation here, like he's done with other things recently. There's no "choose who to believe" conflict inherent.
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Here's the full quote for those interested:
Quote:
 
Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

To me, it definitely sounds like he's dismissing the x50 idea. He straight up says it was an exaggeration, not "I feel like it was" or some other wording that would imply it was higher than he intended, but still ended up as the case.

Of course his statement of it being x10 is a little less sure. Though I feel like adding "as the creator" is the closest way of saying "the canon version" as Toriyama would ever say.

Edit: Another thing to note is that he's only talking about Goku's transformation against Freeza. So it doesn't need to be a set-in-stone multiplier for the whole series, for every character, or even for Goku. A few people don't have a static multiplier, and in all honesty that probably works best since Toriyama likely wasn't doing any kind of calculations in his head when making characters transform, the multiplier is just "whatever Toriyama needed it to be".
Edited by Clearin, Dec 22 2014, 05:00 PM.
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Clearin
Dec 22 2014, 04:57 PM
Here's the full quote for those interested:
Quote:
 
Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

To me, it definitely sounds like he's dismissing the x50 idea. He straight up says it was an exaggeration, not "I feel like it was" or some other wording that would imply it was higher than he intended, but still ended up as the case.

Of course his statement of it being x10 is a little less sure. Though I feel like adding "as the creator" is the closest way of saying "the canon version" as Toriyama would ever say.

Edit: Another thing to note is that he's only talking about Goku's transformation against Freeza. So it doesn't need to be a set-in-stone multiplier for the whole series, for every character, or even for Goku. A few people don't have a static multiplier, and in all honesty that probably works best since Toriyama likely wasn't doing any kind of calculations in his head when making characters transform, the multiplier is just "whatever Toriyama needed it to be".
To me it sounds like he was saying 50x was "considered," but it was too much and he went with 10x, at least for Goku's transformation on Namek.
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Pyrus
Dec 22 2014, 05:03 PM
Clearin
Dec 22 2014, 04:57 PM
Here's the full quote for those interested:
Quote:
 
Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

To me, it definitely sounds like he's dismissing the x50 idea. He straight up says it was an exaggeration, not "I feel like it was" or some other wording that would imply it was higher than he intended, but still ended up as the case.

Of course his statement of it being x10 is a little less sure. Though I feel like adding "as the creator" is the closest way of saying "the canon version" as Toriyama would ever say.

Edit: Another thing to note is that he's only talking about Goku's transformation against Freeza. So it doesn't need to be a set-in-stone multiplier for the whole series, for every character, or even for Goku. A few people don't have a static multiplier, and in all honesty that probably works best since Toriyama likely wasn't doing any kind of calculations in his head when making characters transform, the multiplier is just "whatever Toriyama needed it to be".
To me it sounds like he was saying 50x was "considered," but it was too much and he went with 10x, at least for Goku's transformation on Namek.
I never really thought of it like that, but it could work. Especially since he says "at the time", were guidebooks already putting the x50 multiplier out at the time?

If we take Toriyama's statement as true then I feel like the most likely version is x10 of Kaioken x10, which would be x100 of base, which seems a little excessive, especially if it kept up through the series. 50% Freeza vs Goku might also cause some problems there, but I haven't thought much about that.

I always just went with x50 for the initial transformation, then that permanently boosts the users power by 5, and all subsequent ones are x10. It kind of seems pointless to do that though since Toriyama only ever specifically put the x10 multiplier on the same transformation I purposely avoid putting the x10 multiplier on since it doesn't work :p

The whole thing is just kind of confusing.
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Clearin
Dec 22 2014, 05:08 PM
Pyrus
Dec 22 2014, 05:03 PM
Clearin
Dec 22 2014, 04:57 PM
Here's the full quote for those interested:
Quote:
 
Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

To me, it definitely sounds like he's dismissing the x50 idea. He straight up says it was an exaggeration, not "I feel like it was" or some other wording that would imply it was higher than he intended, but still ended up as the case.

Of course his statement of it being x10 is a little less sure. Though I feel like adding "as the creator" is the closest way of saying "the canon version" as Toriyama would ever say.

Edit: Another thing to note is that he's only talking about Goku's transformation against Freeza. So it doesn't need to be a set-in-stone multiplier for the whole series, for every character, or even for Goku. A few people don't have a static multiplier, and in all honesty that probably works best since Toriyama likely wasn't doing any kind of calculations in his head when making characters transform, the multiplier is just "whatever Toriyama needed it to be".
To me it sounds like he was saying 50x was "considered," but it was too much and he went with 10x, at least for Goku's transformation on Namek.
I never really thought of it like that, but it could work. Especially since he says "at the time", were guidebooks already putting the x50 multiplier out at the time?

If we take Toriyama's statement as true then I feel like the most likely version is x10 of Kaioken x10, which would be x100 of base, which seems a little excessive, especially if it kept up through the series. 50% Freeza vs Goku might also cause some problems there, but I haven't thought much about that.

I always just went with x50 for the initial transformation, then that permanently boosts the users power by 5, and all subsequent ones are x10. It kind of seems pointless to do that though since Toriyama only ever specifically put the x10 multiplier on the same transformation I purposely avoid putting the x10 multiplier on since it doesn't work :p

The whole thing is just kind of confusing.
That makes it sound as if he was thinking of Super Saiyan being 50x the power of Kaioken x10.
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Pyrus
Dec 22 2014, 05:18 PM
Clearin
Dec 22 2014, 05:08 PM
Pyrus
Dec 22 2014, 05:03 PM
Clearin
Dec 22 2014, 04:57 PM
Here's the full quote for those interested:
Quote:
 
Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

To me, it definitely sounds like he's dismissing the x50 idea. He straight up says it was an exaggeration, not "I feel like it was" or some other wording that would imply it was higher than he intended, but still ended up as the case.

Of course his statement of it being x10 is a little less sure. Though I feel like adding "as the creator" is the closest way of saying "the canon version" as Toriyama would ever say.

Edit: Another thing to note is that he's only talking about Goku's transformation against Freeza. So it doesn't need to be a set-in-stone multiplier for the whole series, for every character, or even for Goku. A few people don't have a static multiplier, and in all honesty that probably works best since Toriyama likely wasn't doing any kind of calculations in his head when making characters transform, the multiplier is just "whatever Toriyama needed it to be".
To me it sounds like he was saying 50x was "considered," but it was too much and he went with 10x, at least for Goku's transformation on Namek.
I never really thought of it like that, but it could work. Especially since he says "at the time", were guidebooks already putting the x50 multiplier out at the time?

If we take Toriyama's statement as true then I feel like the most likely version is x10 of Kaioken x10, which would be x100 of base, which seems a little excessive, especially if it kept up through the series. 50% Freeza vs Goku might also cause some problems there, but I haven't thought much about that.

I always just went with x50 for the initial transformation, then that permanently boosts the users power by 5, and all subsequent ones are x10. It kind of seems pointless to do that though since Toriyama only ever specifically put the x10 multiplier on the same transformation I purposely avoid putting the x10 multiplier on since it doesn't work :p

The whole thing is just kind of confusing.
That makes it sound as if he was thinking of Super Saiyan being 50x the power of Kaioken x10.
Well, you can't argue that would definitely be "a bit of an exaggeration" :lol:

I have no idea what he meant. x10 base is too small, but he dismisses x50 as an exaggeration.
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Kaboom
Dec 22 2014, 03:53 PM
If the original author truly felt that Super Saiyan should be officially considered something other than a 50x boost, then I don't think all these books from Shueisha would keep saying it is. Even the Super Exciting Guides, which is where this quote from Toriyama came from, restated the 50x boost and even gave us the boosts for SS2 and SS3 on top of it.

So I suspect Toriyama's not really trying to make any mathematical statement, since in his quote he also does say it was established as a 50x boost. I think he's just noting how it felt to him as he drew, in more of a "50x is difficult to quantify in your head" sense.
To be honest, there's no evidence outside the Freeza arc that Super Saiyan is 50x, and even that isn't enough evidence at all to say that the Super Saiyan boost is 50x universally, or all the time.

All we know is that it gave Goku a roughly 50x boost on Namek. That's it.
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