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How many times stronger is Ultimate Gohan than SSJ3 Goku?
Topic Started: Dec 21 2014, 01:46 AM (6,365 Views)
myst1c
Member Avatar
クリストファー真鍮

Nagito Komaeda
Dec 23 2014, 10:08 PM
myst1c
Dec 23 2014, 10:04 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Dec 23 2014, 10:01 PM
myst1c
Dec 23 2014, 09:58 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Dec 23 2014, 09:54 PM
myst1c
Dec 23 2014, 09:48 PM
Pyrus
Dec 23 2014, 07:16 AM
Quote:
 
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Goku was suppressing down to Fat Boo's level. Going by the kiri meter, Boo could only have been about 2.5x stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Goku with Super Saiyan 3 would be four times stronger than he was with Super Saiyan 2, and he was already much stronger than Gohan.

SSj2 Gohan - 1
SSj2 Goku - 1.5
Fat Boo - 2.5
SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3
SSj3 Goku - 6
Quote:
 
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

Goku was giving everyone hope in the face of desperation. It was only after training in the Room of Spirit and Time that Gotenks managed to pass up Fat Boo, and that was only with Super Saiyan 3. His other forms were irrelevant.

Base Gotenks (pre) - 0.024
Base Gotenks (post) - 0.048
SSj2 Gohan - 1
SSj Gotenks (pre) - 1.2
SSj2 Goku - 1.5
SSj Gotenks (post) - 2.4
Fat Boo - 2.5
SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3
SSj3 Goku - 6
Evil Boo - 8.4
SSj3 Gotenks - 9.6
Ultimate Gohan - 11.6
Gotenks-Boo - 18
Gohan-Boo - 20

That also makes things a lot more believable for Goku surpassing Gotenks and Gohan by Battle of Gods and getting to Gohan-Boo levels.

Posted Image
That makes alot more sense and doesn't create fallacies. Such as:

a) Well nobody doubted Gotenks power, so it must mean he's superior to Fat Boo or at least as strong.
Actually no. Nobody confirmed it either, so it's sheer conjecture to assume so
b) Nobody doubted Goku's prediction about Gotenk's strength
So? Nobody confirmed it either. Krillen gives Gotenks the benefit of the doubt because of how cocky he is. Despite knowing of Super Saiyan, Piccolo insists Base Gotenks Pre needs to train and train for his battle against Boo

It gets tiring going through the same old arguments time and time again.
Did Gohan prove that he was 4 years old when he was talking with the gang on Master Roshi's island? I didn't see any birth certificate confirming his age, so I guess he wasn't actually 4.

Did Goku prove that he landed on Yardrat and not some other planet? I don't recall him providing any evidence of landing on Yardrat and training there, so it could've been any planet. Who's to say those clothes weren't from another alien planet?

Did Raditz prove that he was Goku's brother? I don't recall him providing DNA results, so I guess Raditz and Goku aren't related.

We generally believe statements until we're given a reason to doubt them.

Absolutely not. Not in the form of conjecture that is other-wise never proven or disproven.

Check this out if you need to understand what I'm saying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

If it still isn't enough for you to figure out what exactly you're missing out on then you might as well call yourself ignorant.
I get it. We should doubt every single statement in the manga that isn't supported by several other statements/pieces of evidence, right?

Goku predicted Gotenks would be strong enough as a Super Saiyan. Piccolo never doubts his power, just his speed. Unless he was too high to even think or felt like being an enormous douche, he would've mentioned their power if it was insufficient.
This type of thinking is a 'fallacy in informal logic'.

It's impossible for you to bring one direct statement to the table that confirms your interpretations of Piccolo's thoughts.

It's impossible.

Out of this lack of confirmation, you're choosing to create fallacies that aren't other-wise proven by their own sources or disproven by the same material.

Creating fallacies out of a lack of evidence? This is known as conjecture.
While your talk of fallacies is amusing, it doesn't really contribute much to the conversation. There are quotes and implications that show that SSJ Gotenks (Pre) is > SSJ3 Goku. There's nothing that shows that SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Gotenks (Pre).
A proper understanding of the characters personality is all that's needed to debunk a handful of these so called 'implications', that fall under the line of fallacies when used too deduce any form of so called logic.

It would be far better to ignore these rather ambiguous claims (that are essentially called gag by the Author) and try and formulate something more reasonable and logical.

Such a comprehension would erase all the unnecessary gaps that are contradicted by further claims and further canonical releases.

Some include:

a) Good Boo still being superior to Gotenks SSjin Post in BOG
b) Goku SSjin single shotting and opponent Gotenks SSjin couldn't.
c) Vegeta SSjin2 being superior to Gotenks SSjin by a huge margin.
d) Goku being remarked as superior to anybody, including Gotenks & Gohan
e) Goku stating Gotenks (not the boys) could come back and fight Kid Boo, not lol stomp him.
f) Goku saying him and Vegeta will train to defeat Kid Boo in the future if anything happens, not Gotenks & Gohan.
g) The Ki of Ultimate Gohan not being remotely close alongside everybodies else's Ki to defeat Kid Boo.
h) Beerus being under-whelmed while fighting Gotenks & Gohan, not Goku & Vegeta.

If the relevancy of Gotenks power being comparable to Goku SSjin3s were at all credible to any form of degree, then surely such a strong conclusion (hardly so) would of been portrayed by Akira Toriyama whom confirmed he re-read the entire manga and attempted to portray the gaps as what they were intended to be.

Which largely disagrees with what 99% of anybody on this site thinks.
Edited by myst1c, Dec 23 2014, 10:36 PM.
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* Yu Narukami
Default Avatar
Izanagi!

Nagito Komaeda
Dec 23 2014, 10:08 PM
myst1c
Dec 23 2014, 10:04 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Dec 23 2014, 10:01 PM
myst1c
Dec 23 2014, 09:58 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Dec 23 2014, 09:54 PM
myst1c
Dec 23 2014, 09:48 PM
Pyrus
Dec 23 2014, 07:16 AM
Quote:
 
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Goku was suppressing down to Fat Boo's level. Going by the kiri meter, Boo could only have been about 2.5x stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Goku with Super Saiyan 3 would be four times stronger than he was with Super Saiyan 2, and he was already much stronger than Gohan.

SSj2 Gohan - 1
SSj2 Goku - 1.5
Fat Boo - 2.5
SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3
SSj3 Goku - 6
Quote:
 
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

Goku was giving everyone hope in the face of desperation. It was only after training in the Room of Spirit and Time that Gotenks managed to pass up Fat Boo, and that was only with Super Saiyan 3. His other forms were irrelevant.

Base Gotenks (pre) - 0.024
Base Gotenks (post) - 0.048
SSj2 Gohan - 1
SSj Gotenks (pre) - 1.2
SSj2 Goku - 1.5
SSj Gotenks (post) - 2.4
Fat Boo - 2.5
SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3
SSj3 Goku - 6
Evil Boo - 8.4
SSj3 Gotenks - 9.6
Ultimate Gohan - 11.6
Gotenks-Boo - 18
Gohan-Boo - 20

That also makes things a lot more believable for Goku surpassing Gotenks and Gohan by Battle of Gods and getting to Gohan-Boo levels.

Posted Image
That makes alot more sense and doesn't create fallacies. Such as:

a) Well nobody doubted Gotenks power, so it must mean he's superior to Fat Boo or at least as strong.
Actually no. Nobody confirmed it either, so it's sheer conjecture to assume so
b) Nobody doubted Goku's prediction about Gotenk's strength
So? Nobody confirmed it either. Krillen gives Gotenks the benefit of the doubt because of how cocky he is. Despite knowing of Super Saiyan, Piccolo insists Base Gotenks Pre needs to train and train for his battle against Boo

It gets tiring going through the same old arguments time and time again.
Did Gohan prove that he was 4 years old when he was talking with the gang on Master Roshi's island? I didn't see any birth certificate confirming his age, so I guess he wasn't actually 4.

Did Goku prove that he landed on Yardrat and not some other planet? I don't recall him providing any evidence of landing on Yardrat and training there, so it could've been any planet. Who's to say those clothes weren't from another alien planet?

Did Raditz prove that he was Goku's brother? I don't recall him providing DNA results, so I guess Raditz and Goku aren't related.

We generally believe statements until we're given a reason to doubt them.

Absolutely not. Not in the form of conjecture that is other-wise never proven or disproven.

Check this out if you need to understand what I'm saying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

If it still isn't enough for you to figure out what exactly you're missing out on then you might as well call yourself ignorant.
I get it. We should doubt every single statement in the manga that isn't supported by several other statements/pieces of evidence, right?

Goku predicted Gotenks would be strong enough as a Super Saiyan. Piccolo never doubts his power, just his speed. Unless he was too high to even think or felt like being an enormous douche, he would've mentioned their power if it was insufficient.
This type of thinking is a 'fallacy in informal logic'.

It's impossible for you to bring one direct statement to the table that confirms your interpretations of Piccolo's thoughts.

It's impossible.

Out of this lack of confirmation, you're choosing to create fallacies that aren't other-wise proven by their own sources or disproven by the same material.

Creating fallacies out of a lack of evidence? This is known as conjecture.
While your talk of fallacies is amusing, it doesn't really contribute much to the conversation. There are quotes and implications that show that SSJ Gotenks (Pre) is > SSJ3 Goku. There's nothing that shows that SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Gotenks (Pre).
Quote:
 
A proper understanding of the characters personality is all that's needed to debunk a handful of these so called 'implications', that fall under the line of fallacies when used too deduce any form of so called logic.

It would be far better to ignore these rather ambiguous claims (that are essentially called gag by the Author) and try and formulate something more reasonable and logical.

Such a comprehension would erase all the unnecessary gaps that are contradicted by further claims and further canonical releases.

Some include:


Quote:
 
a) Good Boo still being superior to Gotenks SSjin Pre in BOG


Based on...? They all got decimated by Bills, Good Boo didn't put up a 'better' fight than Gotenks

Quote:
 
b) Goku SSjin single shotting and opponent Gotenks SSjin couldn't.


Gotenks was messing around. Even if you wanted to take that scene seriously, it contradicts multiple statements and implications given to us in the manga.

Manga > Special

Quote:
 
c) Vegeta SSjin2 being superior to Gotenks SSjin by a huge margin.


Despite the fact that Bills was suppressing to different levels? Very interesting indeed

Quote:
 
d) Goku being remarked as superior to anybody, including Gotenks & Gohan


Could you provide a source for this?

Quote:
 
e) Goku stating Gotenks (not the boys) could come back and fight Kid Boo, not lol stomp him.


Right, because Pure Boo ~ Evil Boo, correct? Pure Boo is weaker than Evil Boo, a fighter who Gotenks had the advantage against, so even if you try and be as minimal as possible, Gotenks is absolutely stomping Pure Boo

Quote:
 
f) Goku saying him and Vegeta will train to defeat Kid Boo in the future if anything happens, not Gotenks & Gohan.


That's because;
1) Gotenks and Gohan are already strong enough to defeat Pure Boo
2) They're not competent or dependable; they may screw around and get absorbed despite being vastly superior

Quote:
 
g) The Ki of Ultimate Gohan not being remotely close alongside everybodies else's Ki to defeat Kid Boo.


This one made me laugh. Genki is different from ki, unless you want to argue that the collective human race >> Gohan

Quote:
 
h) Beerus being under-whelmed while fighting Gotenks & Gohan, not Goku & Vegeta.


Bills absolutely annihilated Goku and didn't expect a rage boost from Vegeta, so all we know is that Bills (@Vegeta) > Vegeta (Rage Boost) >>>> Vegeta

Quote:
 
If the relevancy of Gotenks power being comparable to Goku SSjin3s were at all credible to any form of degree, then surely such a strong conclusion (hardly so) would of been portrayed by Akira Toriyama whom confirmed he re-read the entire manga and attempted to portray the gaps as what they were intended to be.

Which largely disagrees with what 99% of anybody on this site thinks.


Well, Toriyama wrote himself into a corner, then. He can't go and invalidate everything that's happened in the manga; the gaps that are in the manga are still present, regardless of what Toriyama thinks now.
Edited by Yu Narukami, Dec 23 2014, 10:46 PM.
Member Offline View Profile Goto Top
 
myst1c
Member Avatar
クリストファー真鍮

Nagito Komaeda
Dec 23 2014, 10:44 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Dec 23 2014, 10:08 PM
myst1c
Dec 23 2014, 10:04 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Dec 23 2014, 10:01 PM
myst1c
Dec 23 2014, 09:58 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Dec 23 2014, 09:54 PM
myst1c
Dec 23 2014, 09:48 PM
Pyrus
Dec 23 2014, 07:16 AM
Quote:
 
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Goku was suppressing down to Fat Boo's level. Going by the kiri meter, Boo could only have been about 2.5x stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Goku with Super Saiyan 3 would be four times stronger than he was with Super Saiyan 2, and he was already much stronger than Gohan.

SSj2 Gohan - 1
SSj2 Goku - 1.5
Fat Boo - 2.5
SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3
SSj3 Goku - 6
Quote:
 
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

Goku was giving everyone hope in the face of desperation. It was only after training in the Room of Spirit and Time that Gotenks managed to pass up Fat Boo, and that was only with Super Saiyan 3. His other forms were irrelevant.

Base Gotenks (pre) - 0.024
Base Gotenks (post) - 0.048
SSj2 Gohan - 1
SSj Gotenks (pre) - 1.2
SSj2 Goku - 1.5
SSj Gotenks (post) - 2.4
Fat Boo - 2.5
SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3
SSj3 Goku - 6
Evil Boo - 8.4
SSj3 Gotenks - 9.6
Ultimate Gohan - 11.6
Gotenks-Boo - 18
Gohan-Boo - 20

That also makes things a lot more believable for Goku surpassing Gotenks and Gohan by Battle of Gods and getting to Gohan-Boo levels.

Posted Image
That makes alot more sense and doesn't create fallacies. Such as:

a) Well nobody doubted Gotenks power, so it must mean he's superior to Fat Boo or at least as strong.
Actually no. Nobody confirmed it either, so it's sheer conjecture to assume so
b) Nobody doubted Goku's prediction about Gotenk's strength
So? Nobody confirmed it either. Krillen gives Gotenks the benefit of the doubt because of how cocky he is. Despite knowing of Super Saiyan, Piccolo insists Base Gotenks Pre needs to train and train for his battle against Boo

It gets tiring going through the same old arguments time and time again.
Did Gohan prove that he was 4 years old when he was talking with the gang on Master Roshi's island? I didn't see any birth certificate confirming his age, so I guess he wasn't actually 4.

Did Goku prove that he landed on Yardrat and not some other planet? I don't recall him providing any evidence of landing on Yardrat and training there, so it could've been any planet. Who's to say those clothes weren't from another alien planet?

Did Raditz prove that he was Goku's brother? I don't recall him providing DNA results, so I guess Raditz and Goku aren't related.

We generally believe statements until we're given a reason to doubt them.

Absolutely not. Not in the form of conjecture that is other-wise never proven or disproven.

Check this out if you need to understand what I'm saying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

If it still isn't enough for you to figure out what exactly you're missing out on then you might as well call yourself ignorant.
I get it. We should doubt every single statement in the manga that isn't supported by several other statements/pieces of evidence, right?

Goku predicted Gotenks would be strong enough as a Super Saiyan. Piccolo never doubts his power, just his speed. Unless he was too high to even think or felt like being an enormous douche, he would've mentioned their power if it was insufficient.
This type of thinking is a 'fallacy in informal logic'.

It's impossible for you to bring one direct statement to the table that confirms your interpretations of Piccolo's thoughts.

It's impossible.

Out of this lack of confirmation, you're choosing to create fallacies that aren't other-wise proven by their own sources or disproven by the same material.

Creating fallacies out of a lack of evidence? This is known as conjecture.
While your talk of fallacies is amusing, it doesn't really contribute much to the conversation. There are quotes and implications that show that SSJ Gotenks (Pre) is > SSJ3 Goku. There's nothing that shows that SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Gotenks (Pre).
A proper understanding of the characters personality is all that's needed to debunk a handful of these so called 'implications', that fall under the line of fallacies when used too deduce any form of so called logic.

It would be far better to ignore these rather ambiguous claims (that are essentially called gag by the Author) and try and formulate something more reasonable and logical.

Such a comprehension would erase all the unnecessary gaps that are contradicted by further claims and further canonical releases.

Some include:

a) Good Boo still being superior to Gotenks SSjin Pre in BOG


Based on...? They all got decimated by Bills, Good Boo didn't put up a 'better' fight than Gotenks

Based on feats. Gotenks was spanked out of SSjin whereas everybody else (except the humans the android) at least put up some form of a fight

By the way, his name is BEERUS not Bills


Quote:
 
b) Goku SSjin single shotting and opponent Gotenks SSjin couldn't.


Gotenks was messing around. Even if you wanted to take that scene seriously, it contradicts multiple statements and implications given to us in the manga.

Manga > Special

The movie is remarked in Battle of Gods which follows the canonical time-line. Side-stepping additional material that should be incorporated into your logic doesn't get you anywhere

Quote:
 
c) Vegeta SSjin2 being superior to Gotenks SSjin by a huge margin.


Despite the fact that Bills was suppressing to different levels? Very interesting indeed

Another example of your attempt to excuse the obvious feats of Battle of Gods. In the extended material, Vegeta even asks Beerus if he wants to fight. The battle continues and Vegeta lasts for longer then Gotenks, feats are feats

Quote:
 
d) Goku being remarked as superior to anybody, including Gotenks & Gohan


Could you provide a source for this?

Check out all 105 minutes of Battle of Gods. The implications start by Goku stating 'Beerus being the strongest in the Universe is what concerns me' to Gohan jumping up and down, fangirling, when Goku shows up to the battle field

Quote:
 
e) Goku stating Gotenks (not the boys) could come back and fight Kid Boo, not lol stomp him.


Right, because Pure Boo ~ Evil Boo, correct? Pure Boo is weaker than Evil Boo, a fighter who Gotenks had the advantage against, so even if you try and be as minimal as possible, Gotenks is absolutely stomping Pure Boo

Not according to Goku asking Vegeta to bring them back. This is prior to Vegeta stating he wants to earth to save themselves. Goku also mentions GOTENKS not the boys, so it's obvious he knows what comparison he's making. This doesn't imply a huge gap, it implies that Gotenks could at best aid them in their battle

Quote:
 
f) Goku saying him and Vegeta will train to defeat Kid Boo in the future if anything happens, not Gotenks & Gohan.


That's because;
1) Gotenks and Gohan are already strong enough to defeat Pure Boo
2) They're not competent or dependable; they may screw around and get absorbed despite being vastly superior

It's impossible to be 'vastly' superior to anybody and then get absorbed by someone whose a dozen to a few hundred times weaker then you. See the Goku vs Ginyu Force fight. That was at best a 50% gap and look what happened. The current statements that proceed you're 'evidence' contradict the fallacies you're arguments so heavily rely on.

Quote:
 
g) The Ki of Ultimate Gohan not being remotely close alongside everybodies else's Ki to defeat Kid Boo.


This one made me laugh. Genki is different from ki, unless you want to argue that the collective human race >> Gohan

I'm happy. Genki is around 33% of a users Ki. Check the Akira Toriyama interview regarding it. This confirms Gohan is in all likely-hood less then three times stronger (perhaps weaker), then Kid Boo. Not to mention this is a blatant feat and contradicts the fallacies we're discussing

Quote:
 
h) Beerus being under-whelmed while fighting Gotenks & Gohan, not Goku & Vegeta.


Bills absolutely annihilated Goku and didn't expect a rage boost from Vegeta, so all we know is that Bills (@Vegeta) > Vegeta (Rage Boost) >>>> Vegeta

Beerus landed the first hit and Vegeta walked through it. He wasn't taken by surprise from anything

Quote:
 
If the relevancy of Gotenks power being comparable to Goku SSjin3s were at all credible to any form of degree, then surely such a strong conclusion (hardly so) would of been portrayed by Akira Toriyama whom confirmed he re-read the entire manga and attempted to portray the gaps as what they were intended to be.

Which largely disagrees with what 99% of anybody on this site thinks.


Well, Toriyama wrote himself into a corner, then. He can't go and invalidate everything that's happened in the manga; the gaps that are in the manga are still present, regardless of what Toriyama thinks now.

The new movie will happily disagree with you and so will I
Edited by myst1c, Dec 23 2014, 10:56 PM.
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+ Six Trails
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If you're gonna just claim Goku a moron and have him be completely wrong about Gotenks, then you can stop going around saying suppressed Bills is stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto, because clearly according to you, Goku actually knows nothing about fusion. Goku is a lot weaker than Gotenks, get over it.
Edited by Six Trails, Dec 23 2014, 11:00 PM.
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myst1c
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クリストファー真鍮

SSJVegetto
Dec 23 2014, 10:59 PM
If you're gonna just claim Goku a moron and have him be completely wrong about Gotenks, then you can stop going around saying suppressed Bills is stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto, because clearly according to you, Goku actually knows nothing about fusion. Goku is a lot weaker than Gotenks, get over it.
His name is Beerus.

Also if you won't comprehend my reasoning then i suppose we can agree to disagree.
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sekzee
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Well, the only time Goku actually claims that Gotenks would be stronger than him is a lie since Goku never actually said it. Gotenks can be stronger than Fat Buu all you want, I guess.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

myst1c
Dec 23 2014, 10:54 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Dec 23 2014, 10:44 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Dec 23 2014, 10:08 PM
myst1c
Dec 23 2014, 10:04 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Dec 23 2014, 10:01 PM
myst1c
Dec 23 2014, 09:58 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Dec 23 2014, 09:54 PM
myst1c
Dec 23 2014, 09:48 PM
Pyrus
Dec 23 2014, 07:16 AM
Quote:
 
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Goku was suppressing down to Fat Boo's level. Going by the kiri meter, Boo could only have been about 2.5x stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Goku with Super Saiyan 3 would be four times stronger than he was with Super Saiyan 2, and he was already much stronger than Gohan.

SSj2 Gohan - 1
SSj2 Goku - 1.5
Fat Boo - 2.5
SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3
SSj3 Goku - 6
Quote:
 
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

Goku was giving everyone hope in the face of desperation. It was only after training in the Room of Spirit and Time that Gotenks managed to pass up Fat Boo, and that was only with Super Saiyan 3. His other forms were irrelevant.

Base Gotenks (pre) - 0.024
Base Gotenks (post) - 0.048
SSj2 Gohan - 1
SSj Gotenks (pre) - 1.2
SSj2 Goku - 1.5
SSj Gotenks (post) - 2.4
Fat Boo - 2.5
SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3
SSj3 Goku - 6
Evil Boo - 8.4
SSj3 Gotenks - 9.6
Ultimate Gohan - 11.6
Gotenks-Boo - 18
Gohan-Boo - 20

That also makes things a lot more believable for Goku surpassing Gotenks and Gohan by Battle of Gods and getting to Gohan-Boo levels.

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That makes alot more sense and doesn't create fallacies. Such as:

a) Well nobody doubted Gotenks power, so it must mean he's superior to Fat Boo or at least as strong.
Actually no. Nobody confirmed it either, so it's sheer conjecture to assume so
b) Nobody doubted Goku's prediction about Gotenk's strength
So? Nobody confirmed it either. Krillen gives Gotenks the benefit of the doubt because of how cocky he is. Despite knowing of Super Saiyan, Piccolo insists Base Gotenks Pre needs to train and train for his battle against Boo

It gets tiring going through the same old arguments time and time again.
Did Gohan prove that he was 4 years old when he was talking with the gang on Master Roshi's island? I didn't see any birth certificate confirming his age, so I guess he wasn't actually 4.

Did Goku prove that he landed on Yardrat and not some other planet? I don't recall him providing any evidence of landing on Yardrat and training there, so it could've been any planet. Who's to say those clothes weren't from another alien planet?

Did Raditz prove that he was Goku's brother? I don't recall him providing DNA results, so I guess Raditz and Goku aren't related.

We generally believe statements until we're given a reason to doubt them.

Absolutely not. Not in the form of conjecture that is other-wise never proven or disproven.

Check this out if you need to understand what I'm saying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

If it still isn't enough for you to figure out what exactly you're missing out on then you might as well call yourself ignorant.
I get it. We should doubt every single statement in the manga that isn't supported by several other statements/pieces of evidence, right?

Goku predicted Gotenks would be strong enough as a Super Saiyan. Piccolo never doubts his power, just his speed. Unless he was too high to even think or felt like being an enormous douche, he would've mentioned their power if it was insufficient.
This type of thinking is a 'fallacy in informal logic'.

It's impossible for you to bring one direct statement to the table that confirms your interpretations of Piccolo's thoughts.

It's impossible.

Out of this lack of confirmation, you're choosing to create fallacies that aren't other-wise proven by their own sources or disproven by the same material.

Creating fallacies out of a lack of evidence? This is known as conjecture.
While your talk of fallacies is amusing, it doesn't really contribute much to the conversation. There are quotes and implications that show that SSJ Gotenks (Pre) is > SSJ3 Goku. There's nothing that shows that SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Gotenks (Pre).
A proper understanding of the characters personality is all that's needed to debunk a handful of these so called 'implications', that fall under the line of fallacies when used too deduce any form of so called logic.

It would be far better to ignore these rather ambiguous claims (that are essentially called gag by the Author) and try and formulate something more reasonable and logical.

Such a comprehension would erase all the unnecessary gaps that are contradicted by further claims and further canonical releases.

Some include:

a) Good Boo still being superior to Gotenks SSjin Pre in BOG


Based on...? They all got decimated by Bills, Good Boo didn't put up a 'better' fight than Gotenks

Based on feats. Gotenks was spanked out of SSjin whereas everybody else (except the humans the android) at least put up some form of a fight

By the way, his name is BEERUS not Bills


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b) Goku SSjin single shotting and opponent Gotenks SSjin couldn't.


Gotenks was messing around. Even if you wanted to take that scene seriously, it contradicts multiple statements and implications given to us in the manga.

Manga > Special

The movie is remarked in Battle of Gods which follows the canonical time-line. Side-stepping additional material that should be incorporated into your logic doesn't get you anywhere

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c) Vegeta SSjin2 being superior to Gotenks SSjin by a huge margin.


Despite the fact that Bills was suppressing to different levels? Very interesting indeed

Another example of your attempt to excuse the obvious feats of Battle of Gods. In the extended material, Vegeta even asks Beerus if he wants to fight. The battle continues and Vegeta lasts for longer then Gotenks, feats are feats

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d) Goku being remarked as superior to anybody, including Gotenks & Gohan


Could you provide a source for this?

Check out all 105 minutes of Battle of Gods. The implications start by Goku stating 'Beerus being the strongest in the Universe is what concerns me' to Gohan jumping up and down, fangirling, when Goku shows up to the battle field

Quote:
 
e) Goku stating Gotenks (not the boys) could come back and fight Kid Boo, not lol stomp him.


Right, because Pure Boo ~ Evil Boo, correct? Pure Boo is weaker than Evil Boo, a fighter who Gotenks had the advantage against, so even if you try and be as minimal as possible, Gotenks is absolutely stomping Pure Boo

Not according to Goku asking Vegeta to bring them back. This is prior to Vegeta stating he wants to earth to save themselves. Goku also mentions GOTENKS not the boys, so it's obvious he knows what comparison he's making. This doesn't imply a huge gap, it implies that Gotenks could at best aid them in their battle

Quote:
 
f) Goku saying him and Vegeta will train to defeat Kid Boo in the future if anything happens, not Gotenks & Gohan.


That's because;
1) Gotenks and Gohan are already strong enough to defeat Pure Boo
2) They're not competent or dependable; they may screw around and get absorbed despite being vastly superior

It's impossible to be 'vastly' superior to anybody and then get absorbed by someone whose a dozen to a few hundred times weaker then you. See the Goku vs Ginyu Force fight. That was at best a 50% gap and look what happened. The current statements that proceed you're 'evidence' contradict the fallacies you're arguments so heavily rely on.

Quote:
 
g) The Ki of Ultimate Gohan not being remotely close alongside everybodies else's Ki to defeat Kid Boo.


This one made me laugh. Genki is different from ki, unless you want to argue that the collective human race >> Gohan

I'm happy. Genki is around 33% of a users Ki. Check the Akira Toriyama interview regarding it. This confirms Gohan is in all likely-hood less then three times stronger (perhaps weaker), then Kid Boo. Not to mention this is a blatant feat and contradicts the fallacies we're discussing

Quote:
 
h) Beerus being under-whelmed while fighting Gotenks & Gohan, not Goku & Vegeta.


Bills absolutely annihilated Goku and didn't expect a rage boost from Vegeta, so all we know is that Bills (@Vegeta) > Vegeta (Rage Boost) >>>> Vegeta

Beerus landed the first hit and Vegeta walked through it. He wasn't taken by surprise from anything

Quote:
 
If the relevancy of Gotenks power being comparable to Goku SSjin3s were at all credible to any form of degree, then surely such a strong conclusion (hardly so) would of been portrayed by Akira Toriyama whom confirmed he re-read the entire manga and attempted to portray the gaps as what they were intended to be.

Which largely disagrees with what 99% of anybody on this site thinks.


Well, Toriyama wrote himself into a corner, then. He can't go and invalidate everything that's happened in the manga; the gaps that are in the manga are still present, regardless of what Toriyama thinks now.

The new movie will happily disagree with you and so will I
Quote:
 
Based on feats. Gotenks was spanked out of SSjin whereas everybody else (except the humans the android) at least put up some form of a fight

By the way, his name is BEERUS not Bills


Based on feats, Goku got knocked out in two hits and his attack on Bills did absolutely nothing.

Good Boo > SSJ3 Goku?

And nah, his name is Bills

Quote:
 
The movie is remarked in Battle of Gods which follows the canonical time-line. Side-stepping additional material that should be incorporated into your logic doesn't get you anywhere


Just like trying to side-step statements in the manga doesn't get you anywhere, wouldn't you agree?

Quote:
 
Another example of your attempt to excuse the obvious feats of Battle of Gods. In the extended material, Vegeta even asks Beerus if he wants to fight. The battle continues and Vegeta lasts for longer then Gotenks, feats are feats


The fact that Tenshinhan, #18 and Piccolo didn't die from Bills' attacks means that they're very, very strong, right? After all, to be able to survive any kind of attack from someone who's >>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Goku is quite a feat.

Quote:
 
Check out all 105 minutes of Battle of Gods. The implications start by Goku stating 'Beerus being the strongest in the Universe is what concerns me' to Gohan jumping up and down, fangirling, when Goku shows up to the battle field


Riiiiiight. ''Dad got absolutely wrecked by Bills but I'm glad he's here so I can watch him get killed with my own two eyes.''

Quote:
 
Not according to Goku asking Vegeta to bring them back. This is prior to Vegeta stating he wants to earth to save themselves. Goku also mentions GOTENKS not the boys, so it's obvious he knows what comparison he's making. This doesn't imply a huge gap, it implies that Gotenks could at best aid them in their battle


''I know, you'll bring back Gotenks so he can screw around and get absorbed again or, at the very best, aid us in battle.'' He talks of Gotenks as though that'd be the best and easiest solution to the problem implying that, you guessed it, Gotenks could get the job done easily.

Quote:
 
It's impossible to be 'vastly' superior to anybody and then get absorbed by someone whose a dozen to a few hundred times weaker then you. See the Goku vs Ginyu Force fight. That was at best a 50% gap and look what happened. The current statements that proceed you're 'evidence' contradict the fallacies you're arguments so heavily rely on.


Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? B-But Gohan got absorbed by Evil Boo, and there was a big gap between them, so...I'm sowwy, I'm not smart enuff to understand what you're saying.

Quote:
 
Beerus landed the first hit and Vegeta walked through it. He wasn't taken by surprise from anything


No, he was surprised. Vegeta caught him before he could raise his power, so he was left throwing a punch at the level that he was originally fighting Vegeta at.

Quote:
 
The new movie will happily disagree with you and so will I


You can see into the future? Share your secrets with me, oh mystical magic man.
Edited by Yu Narukami, Dec 23 2014, 11:15 PM.
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Saberoph
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Father Brofist
Dec 23 2014, 10:30 PM
An argument is based upon the proof you can bring to it. The more solid the proof, the more possibility of the argument being true. This however is not an argument, you have states saying that SSJ Gotenks Pre>SSJ3 Goku. The power that Goku used against Fat Boo as Goku stated would be weaker than Gotenks. He was absolutely confident and without contradiction that Gotenks would also defeat Fat Boo.

Thus he'd also have to to take into consideration Fat Boo going on easy on him as well during their fight. And this was at the time when he was remarking that he still couldn't beat Fat Boo. It's only after a while when they face Kid Boo that he admits he could've done the job. You honestly think Goku would just go around lying and stuff if he actually knows he's that much stronger? The same guy who tells it as it is?

I can say SSJ Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku because its actually stated. Someone, that being Goku himself says Gotenks would be stronger than him. We already see what happened with Base Gotenks so we know it must refer to SSJ Gotenks.

But when someone comes up and says "oh no, Goku was holding back over half his power" do you know what that's called? It's called conjecture, it has absolutely no merit int he argument whatsoever. You say Goku was holding back against Fat Boo? Fair enough, I can throw that same argument right there and say Fat Boo was holding back as well. Goku's interaction with Fat Boo and Kid Boo were both similar. His opponents lollygagged through the fight a bit, he Goku either held back or didn't finish the job as quickly as he could and in both cases he states he could have defeated the other.

And then here comes Gotenks out of the ROSAT, his base form superior to his SSJ form. And yes it is, because I'm tired as f*** of people ignoring this. Piccolo states Pre-Gotenks has no chance and begs for a miracle. He actually thinks Base Gotenks (post) has a chance. I don't care if you use a 50x SSJ multiplier, a 10x, a 5x or a 1.004x...Gotenks Base superiority over SSJ Gotenks (pre) is noted there.

Whether you or I or anyone else don't like that doesn't mean a damn. The manga doesn't have to follow what you think, you need to follow what the manga tells you. If the manga went up said Gotenks got a 1,000x stronger in a day then guess what? Gotenks got that much stronger and whether you like it or not is your own fault. That doesn't mean you ignore what the manga shows you.

And then you have SSj2 Gotenks...and then SSJ3 Gotenks, the guy Super Boo is more or less rivaling in power. And then you have Gohan making a mockery of said Super Boo. In the end, you get this chain.

Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks~Super Boo>SSJ2 Gotenks>SSJ Gotenks>Base Gotenks>SSJ Gotenks (Pre)>SSJ3 Goku.

That's the chain outright implied within the manga. Anything else is conjecture. You want to get SSj3 Goku above Gotenks, much less Gohan? Good luck because there is nothing to support that claim.

But things like statements and stuff don't mean a crap do they? It's not about what the manga says? Manga be damned right? If the manga doesn't follow what I want then I can just ignore it. That's exactly what's going on here. It's the same crap with the Base Gotenks debate, its the same crap here with making up all whole bunch of conjecture and ignoring the outright statements in the manga.

It's like arguing with a religious fundamentalist.
This is the comment that should be taken to heart and as far as I'm concerned the comment of the Thread too.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

Intellectual savior of the masses.
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Event Horizon
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エンペラー

sekzee
Dec 23 2014, 11:02 PM
Well, the only time Goku actually claims that Gotenks would be stronger than him is a lie since Goku never actually said it. Gotenks can be stronger than Fat Buu all you want, I guess.
What do you mean he never said it? He clearly said it when he was talking to Piccolo. lol
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SSJ
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The mods have saved us.
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Event Horizon
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I could give the moderator that did it a free back massage.
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Saberoph
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I don't think I posted my thoughts on the subject yet, but I believe Gohan is so much stronger than Kakarrot that Gohan could toy with his Father as much as Vegetto toyed with Ultimate Boo... if not even more than that.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
Dragon Ball Paramountcy.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

Intellectual savior of the masses.
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sekzee
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Oskuraz
Dec 23 2014, 11:27 PM
sekzee
Dec 23 2014, 11:02 PM
Well, the only time Goku actually claims that Gotenks would be stronger than him is a lie since Goku never actually said it. Gotenks can be stronger than Fat Buu all you want, I guess.
What do you mean he never said it? He clearly said it when he was talking to Piccolo. lol
He never told Buu that, so he was lying to Piccolo.
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* Yu Narukami
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sekzee
Dec 23 2014, 11:41 PM
Oskuraz
Dec 23 2014, 11:27 PM
sekzee
Dec 23 2014, 11:02 PM
Well, the only time Goku actually claims that Gotenks would be stronger than him is a lie since Goku never actually said it. Gotenks can be stronger than Fat Buu all you want, I guess.
What do you mean he never said it? He clearly said it when he was talking to Piccolo. lol
He never told Buu that, so he was lying to Piccolo.
Actually, he was lying when he told Vegeta that he could actually win. Boo was lollygagging in their fight and, as it turns out, SSJ3 Goku ~ Pure Boo ~ Fat Boo
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+ Pyrus
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sekzee
Dec 23 2014, 11:41 PM
Oskuraz
Dec 23 2014, 11:27 PM
sekzee
Dec 23 2014, 11:02 PM
Well, the only time Goku actually claims that Gotenks would be stronger than him is a lie since Goku never actually said it. Gotenks can be stronger than Fat Buu all you want, I guess.
What do you mean he never said it? He clearly said it when he was talking to Piccolo. lol
He never told Buu that, so he was lying to Piccolo.
Piccolo didn't know that.
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