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How many times stronger is Ultimate Gohan than SSJ3 Goku?
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Topic Started: Dec 21 2014, 01:46 AM (6,366 Views)
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SSJ
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Dec 22 2014, 06:52 PM
Post #46
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- Pyrus
- Dec 22 2014, 02:41 PM
- Yondaime
- Dec 22 2014, 02:27 PM
- Pyrus
- Dec 21 2014, 02:11 AM
If I applied strict multipliers, Gohan would come out hundreds of times stronger than Goku. But I don't feel that gap was ever implied. I think they're within 10x of each other ignoring multipliers.
oh my lord what did i just read........ old kp here http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8501691&t=8367450granted you did use seg back then BUT thats all you went by so........... my face now
Keep in mind I'm not throwing out the power chains that were stated and/or shown. I'm simply explaining that whilst reading the narrative, I never got the feeling that Goku and Gohan were hundreds of times apart. When I apply huge multipliers, that's when the huge gap shows up. In other words: ReadingSSj3 Goku - 1 SSj Gotenks pre - 1.1 Base Gotenks pre - 1.2 SSj Gotenks post - 1.5 SSj2 Gotenks - 1.6 SSj3 Gotenks - 2 Gohan - 2.2 MultipliersSSj3 Goku - 1 SSj Gotenks pre - 1.2 Base Gotenks post - 2 SSj Gotenks post - 20 SSj2 Gotenks - 40 SSj3 Gotenks - 160 Gohan - 200+ From a narrative perspective you'd think SSJ, SSJ2 and SSJ3 give larger boosts than what your first list shows. The rest of the manga makes them out to be a lot more impressive than what you've shown.
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Dec 22 2014, 06:56 PM
Post #47
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- Super Saiyan
- Dec 22 2014, 06:52 PM
- Pyrus
- Dec 22 2014, 02:41 PM
- Yondaime
- Dec 22 2014, 02:27 PM
- Pyrus
- Dec 21 2014, 02:11 AM
If I applied strict multipliers, Gohan would come out hundreds of times stronger than Goku. But I don't feel that gap was ever implied. I think they're within 10x of each other ignoring multipliers.
oh my lord what did i just read........ old kp here http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8501691&t=8367450granted you did use seg back then BUT thats all you went by so........... my face now
Keep in mind I'm not throwing out the power chains that were stated and/or shown. I'm simply explaining that whilst reading the narrative, I never got the feeling that Goku and Gohan were hundreds of times apart. When I apply huge multipliers, that's when the huge gap shows up. In other words: ReadingSSj3 Goku - 1 SSj Gotenks pre - 1.1 Base Gotenks pre - 1.2 SSj Gotenks post - 1.5 SSj2 Gotenks - 1.6 SSj3 Gotenks - 2 Gohan - 2.2 MultipliersSSj3 Goku - 1 SSj Gotenks pre - 1.2 Base Gotenks post - 2 SSj Gotenks post - 20 SSj2 Gotenks - 40 SSj3 Gotenks - 160 Gohan - 200+
From a narrative perspective you'd think SSJ, SSJ2 and SSJ3 give larger boosts than what your first list shows. The rest of the manga makes them out to be a lot more impressive than what you've shown. If you say so. The specific gaps weren't the point I was trying to show.
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myst1c
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Dec 22 2014, 06:58 PM
Post #48
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Goku SSJ3: 40
Fat Boo: 15
Base Gotenks Pre: 3.75 Gotenks SSJ Pre: 7.50
Base Gotenks Post: 15 SSJ Gotenks Post: 30 SSJ3 Gotenks Post: 60
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Dec 23 2014, 03:56 AM
Post #49
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- myst1c
- Dec 22 2014, 06:58 PM
Goku SSJ3: 40
Fat Boo: 15
Base Gotenks Pre: 3.75 Gotenks SSJ Pre: 7.50
Base Gotenks Post: 15 SSJ Gotenks Post: 30 SSJ3 Gotenks Post: 60 Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5 Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”
Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P3.1 Goku: “…This is Majin Boo, right? This ki…what is it?...” Note: mostly I wanted to point out that Goku and co. can sense evil Boo from the Kaioshin Realm.
Base Gotenks (Post-RoSaT) >~ Super Boo (at the very least) >~ SSJ3 Goku.
Piccolo never denies SSJ Gotenks Pre might be stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Gotenks only got stronger from this point.
Fat Boo was equal to Goku when they fought, not only due to his regeneration and durability.
You've downplayed Gotenks' abilities by a lot and you've overplayed Goku's abilities by a lot. A 2x multiplier doesn't work throughout the manga. You are also going against the linearity of the manga.
This doesn't work.
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FutureProtagonist
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Dec 23 2014, 04:08 AM
Post #50
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- Quote:
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Goku SSJ3: 40
Fat Boo: 15 Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8 Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?” Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”- Quote:
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Base Gotenks Pre: 3.75 Gotenks SSJ Pre: 7.50
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3 Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!” Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4 Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”
Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8 Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”
Here's the only evidence for your claims:
Chapter: 999 (DBZ 1000). P-11.2 Context: Who the hell knows? Goku: Actually Fat Boo was laughably weaker than me, I could have defeated him in a second. Oh and I was just trolling those stupid kids and their stupid ditz mother when I told them that Gotenks was going to win. He was going to get his a*s slapped. And I was going to be laughing. Shame he had to go into the RoSaT and ruin my fun. Man, that would have been hilarious.
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Dec 23 2014, 07:16 AM
Post #51
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Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8 Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?” Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…” Goku was suppressing down to Fat Boo's level. Going by the kiri meter, Boo could only have been about 2.5x stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Goku with Super Saiyan 3 would be four times stronger than he was with Super Saiyan 2, and he was already much stronger than Gohan.
SSj2 Gohan - 1 SSj2 Goku - 1.5 Fat Boo - 2.5 SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3 SSj3 Goku - 6
- Quote:
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Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3 Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!” Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4 Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”
Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8 Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”
Goku was giving everyone hope in the face of desperation. It was only after training in the Room of Spirit and Time that Gotenks managed to pass up Fat Boo, and that was only with Super Saiyan 3. His other forms were irrelevant.
Base Gotenks (pre) - 0.024 Base Gotenks (post) - 0.048 SSj2 Gohan - 1 SSj Gotenks (pre) - 1.2 SSj2 Goku - 1.5 SSj Gotenks (post) - 2.4 Fat Boo - 2.5 SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3 SSj3 Goku - 6 Evil Boo - 8.4 SSj3 Gotenks - 9.6 Ultimate Gohan - 11.6 Gotenks-Boo - 18 Gohan-Boo - 20
That also makes things a lot more believable for Goku surpassing Gotenks and Gohan by Battle of Gods and getting to Gohan-Boo levels.
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myst1c
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Dec 23 2014, 09:48 PM
Post #52
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クリストファー真鍮
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- Pyrus
- Dec 23 2014, 07:16 AM
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Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8 Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?” Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Goku was suppressing down to Fat Boo's level. Going by the kiri meter, Boo could only have been about 2.5x stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Goku with Super Saiyan 3 would be four times stronger than he was with Super Saiyan 2, and he was already much stronger than Gohan. SSj2 Gohan - 1 SSj2 Goku - 1.5 Fat Boo - 2.5 SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3 SSj3 Goku - 6 - Quote:
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Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3 Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!” Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4 Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”
Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8 Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”
Goku was giving everyone hope in the face of desperation. It was only after training in the Room of Spirit and Time that Gotenks managed to pass up Fat Boo, and that was only with Super Saiyan 3. His other forms were irrelevant. Base Gotenks (pre) - 0.024 Base Gotenks (post) - 0.048 SSj2 Gohan - 1 SSj Gotenks (pre) - 1.2 SSj2 Goku - 1.5 SSj Gotenks (post) - 2.4 Fat Boo - 2.5 SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3 SSj3 Goku - 6 Evil Boo - 8.4 SSj3 Gotenks - 9.6 Ultimate Gohan - 11.6 Gotenks-Boo - 18 Gohan-Boo - 20 That also makes things a lot more believable for Goku surpassing Gotenks and Gohan by Battle of Gods and getting to Gohan-Boo levels.  That makes alot more sense and doesn't create fallacies. Such as:
a) Well nobody doubted Gotenks power, so it must mean he's superior to Fat Boo or at least as strong. Actually no. Nobody confirmed it either, so it's sheer conjecture to assume so b) Nobody doubted Goku's prediction about Gotenk's strength So? Nobody confirmed it either. Krillen gives Gotenks the benefit of the doubt because of how cocky he is. Despite knowing of Super Saiyan, Piccolo insists Base Gotenks Pre needs to train and train for his battle against Boo
It gets tiring going through the same old arguments time and time again.
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* Yu Narukami
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Dec 23 2014, 09:54 PM
Post #53
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Izanagi!
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- myst1c
- Dec 23 2014, 09:48 PM
- Pyrus
- Dec 23 2014, 07:16 AM
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Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8 Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?” Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Goku was suppressing down to Fat Boo's level. Going by the kiri meter, Boo could only have been about 2.5x stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Goku with Super Saiyan 3 would be four times stronger than he was with Super Saiyan 2, and he was already much stronger than Gohan. SSj2 Gohan - 1 SSj2 Goku - 1.5 Fat Boo - 2.5 SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3 SSj3 Goku - 6 - Quote:
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Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3 Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!” Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4 Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”
Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8 Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”
Goku was giving everyone hope in the face of desperation. It was only after training in the Room of Spirit and Time that Gotenks managed to pass up Fat Boo, and that was only with Super Saiyan 3. His other forms were irrelevant. Base Gotenks (pre) - 0.024 Base Gotenks (post) - 0.048 SSj2 Gohan - 1 SSj Gotenks (pre) - 1.2 SSj2 Goku - 1.5 SSj Gotenks (post) - 2.4 Fat Boo - 2.5 SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3 SSj3 Goku - 6 Evil Boo - 8.4 SSj3 Gotenks - 9.6 Ultimate Gohan - 11.6 Gotenks-Boo - 18 Gohan-Boo - 20 That also makes things a lot more believable for Goku surpassing Gotenks and Gohan by Battle of Gods and getting to Gohan-Boo levels. 
That makes alot more sense and doesn't create fallacies. Such as: a) Well nobody doubted Gotenks power, so it must mean he's superior to Fat Boo or at least as strong. Actually no. Nobody confirmed it either, so it's sheer conjecture to assume sob) Nobody doubted Goku's prediction about Gotenk's strength So? Nobody confirmed it either. Krillen gives Gotenks the benefit of the doubt because of how cocky he is. Despite knowing of Super Saiyan, Piccolo insists Base Gotenks Pre needs to train and train for his battle against BooIt gets tiring going through the same old arguments time and time again. Did Gohan prove that he was 4 years old when he was talking with the gang on Master Roshi's island? I didn't see any birth certificate confirming his age, so I guess he wasn't actually 4.
Did Goku prove that he landed on Yardrat and not some other planet? I don't recall him providing any evidence of landing on Yardrat and training there, so it could've been any planet. Who's to say those clothes weren't from another alien planet?
Did Raditz prove that he was Goku's brother? I don't recall him providing DNA results, so I guess Raditz and Goku aren't related.
We generally believe statements until we're given a reason to doubt them.
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myst1c
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Dec 23 2014, 09:58 PM
Post #54
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クリストファー真鍮
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- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 23 2014, 09:54 PM
- myst1c
- Dec 23 2014, 09:48 PM
- Pyrus
- Dec 23 2014, 07:16 AM
- Quote:
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Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8 Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?” Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Goku was suppressing down to Fat Boo's level. Going by the kiri meter, Boo could only have been about 2.5x stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Goku with Super Saiyan 3 would be four times stronger than he was with Super Saiyan 2, and he was already much stronger than Gohan. SSj2 Gohan - 1 SSj2 Goku - 1.5 Fat Boo - 2.5 SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3 SSj3 Goku - 6 - Quote:
-
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3 Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!” Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4 Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”
Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8 Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”
Goku was giving everyone hope in the face of desperation. It was only after training in the Room of Spirit and Time that Gotenks managed to pass up Fat Boo, and that was only with Super Saiyan 3. His other forms were irrelevant. Base Gotenks (pre) - 0.024 Base Gotenks (post) - 0.048 SSj2 Gohan - 1 SSj Gotenks (pre) - 1.2 SSj2 Goku - 1.5 SSj Gotenks (post) - 2.4 Fat Boo - 2.5 SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3 SSj3 Goku - 6 Evil Boo - 8.4 SSj3 Gotenks - 9.6 Ultimate Gohan - 11.6 Gotenks-Boo - 18 Gohan-Boo - 20 That also makes things a lot more believable for Goku surpassing Gotenks and Gohan by Battle of Gods and getting to Gohan-Boo levels. 
That makes alot more sense and doesn't create fallacies. Such as: a) Well nobody doubted Gotenks power, so it must mean he's superior to Fat Boo or at least as strong. Actually no. Nobody confirmed it either, so it's sheer conjecture to assume sob) Nobody doubted Goku's prediction about Gotenk's strength So? Nobody confirmed it either. Krillen gives Gotenks the benefit of the doubt because of how cocky he is. Despite knowing of Super Saiyan, Piccolo insists Base Gotenks Pre needs to train and train for his battle against BooIt gets tiring going through the same old arguments time and time again.
Did Gohan prove that he was 4 years old when he was talking with the gang on Master Roshi's island? I didn't see any birth certificate confirming his age, so I guess he wasn't actually 4. Did Goku prove that he landed on Yardrat and not some other planet? I don't recall him providing any evidence of landing on Yardrat and training there, so it could've been any planet. Who's to say those clothes weren't from another alien planet? Did Raditz prove that he was Goku's brother? I don't recall him providing DNA results, so I guess Raditz and Goku aren't related. We generally believe statements until we're given a reason to doubt them. Absolutely not. Not in the form of conjecture that is other-wise never proven or disproven.
Check this out if you need to understand what I'm saying.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
If it still isn't enough for you to figure out what exactly you're missing out on then you might as well call yourself ignorant.
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* Yu Narukami
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Dec 23 2014, 10:01 PM
Post #55
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Izanagi!
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- myst1c
- Dec 23 2014, 09:58 PM
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 23 2014, 09:54 PM
- myst1c
- Dec 23 2014, 09:48 PM
- Pyrus
- Dec 23 2014, 07:16 AM
- Quote:
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Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8 Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?” Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Goku was suppressing down to Fat Boo's level. Going by the kiri meter, Boo could only have been about 2.5x stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Goku with Super Saiyan 3 would be four times stronger than he was with Super Saiyan 2, and he was already much stronger than Gohan. SSj2 Gohan - 1 SSj2 Goku - 1.5 Fat Boo - 2.5 SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3 SSj3 Goku - 6 - Quote:
-
Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3 Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!” Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4 Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”
Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8 Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”
Goku was giving everyone hope in the face of desperation. It was only after training in the Room of Spirit and Time that Gotenks managed to pass up Fat Boo, and that was only with Super Saiyan 3. His other forms were irrelevant. Base Gotenks (pre) - 0.024 Base Gotenks (post) - 0.048 SSj2 Gohan - 1 SSj Gotenks (pre) - 1.2 SSj2 Goku - 1.5 SSj Gotenks (post) - 2.4 Fat Boo - 2.5 SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3 SSj3 Goku - 6 Evil Boo - 8.4 SSj3 Gotenks - 9.6 Ultimate Gohan - 11.6 Gotenks-Boo - 18 Gohan-Boo - 20 That also makes things a lot more believable for Goku surpassing Gotenks and Gohan by Battle of Gods and getting to Gohan-Boo levels. 
That makes alot more sense and doesn't create fallacies. Such as: a) Well nobody doubted Gotenks power, so it must mean he's superior to Fat Boo or at least as strong. Actually no. Nobody confirmed it either, so it's sheer conjecture to assume sob) Nobody doubted Goku's prediction about Gotenk's strength So? Nobody confirmed it either. Krillen gives Gotenks the benefit of the doubt because of how cocky he is. Despite knowing of Super Saiyan, Piccolo insists Base Gotenks Pre needs to train and train for his battle against BooIt gets tiring going through the same old arguments time and time again.
Did Gohan prove that he was 4 years old when he was talking with the gang on Master Roshi's island? I didn't see any birth certificate confirming his age, so I guess he wasn't actually 4. Did Goku prove that he landed on Yardrat and not some other planet? I don't recall him providing any evidence of landing on Yardrat and training there, so it could've been any planet. Who's to say those clothes weren't from another alien planet? Did Raditz prove that he was Goku's brother? I don't recall him providing DNA results, so I guess Raditz and Goku aren't related. We generally believe statements until we're given a reason to doubt them.
Absolutely not. Not in the form of conjecture that is other-wise never proven or disproven. Check this out if you need to understand what I'm saying. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignoranceIf it still isn't enough for you to figure out what exactly you're missing out on then you might as well call yourself ignorant. I get it. We should doubt every single statement in the manga that isn't supported by several other statements/pieces of evidence, right?
Goku predicted Gotenks would be strong enough as a Super Saiyan. Piccolo never doubts his power, just his speed. Unless he was too high to even think or felt like being an enormous douche, he would've mentioned their power if it was insufficient.
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EMIYA
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Dec 23 2014, 10:03 PM
Post #56
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5 Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!” Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!” Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”
Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P13.1 Context: still talking about how they’re no match for Boo Goku: “…But there is one way we can win!” Vegeta: “You want to say Fusion, right? Well who cares about that?!” Goku: “Huh? You know about it?” Vegeta: “I saw it from the afterlife…You’ve got to be joking! You think I’d perform those ugly poses…?! Anyway, I thought I told you that I’m not going to merge with you a second time.”
Gohan beats up Super Boo badly. Goku doesn't even want to face Boo without fusion. There still an argument about this going on?
I suppose along with the definition of "everything" now changed to "pick specifics points I want and ignore what I don't like."
The definition of "can't beat this guy without fusion" now means "I'm stronger than the guy who whooped his butt and fusion is completely unnecessary and I'm a chronic liar."
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myst1c
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Dec 23 2014, 10:04 PM
Post #57
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クリストファー真鍮
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- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 23 2014, 10:01 PM
- myst1c
- Dec 23 2014, 09:58 PM
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 23 2014, 09:54 PM
- myst1c
- Dec 23 2014, 09:48 PM
- Pyrus
- Dec 23 2014, 07:16 AM
- Quote:
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Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8 Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?” Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Goku was suppressing down to Fat Boo's level. Going by the kiri meter, Boo could only have been about 2.5x stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Goku with Super Saiyan 3 would be four times stronger than he was with Super Saiyan 2, and he was already much stronger than Gohan. SSj2 Gohan - 1 SSj2 Goku - 1.5 Fat Boo - 2.5 SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3 SSj3 Goku - 6 - Quote:
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Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3 Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!” Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4 Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”
Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8 Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”
Goku was giving everyone hope in the face of desperation. It was only after training in the Room of Spirit and Time that Gotenks managed to pass up Fat Boo, and that was only with Super Saiyan 3. His other forms were irrelevant. Base Gotenks (pre) - 0.024 Base Gotenks (post) - 0.048 SSj2 Gohan - 1 SSj Gotenks (pre) - 1.2 SSj2 Goku - 1.5 SSj Gotenks (post) - 2.4 Fat Boo - 2.5 SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3 SSj3 Goku - 6 Evil Boo - 8.4 SSj3 Gotenks - 9.6 Ultimate Gohan - 11.6 Gotenks-Boo - 18 Gohan-Boo - 20 That also makes things a lot more believable for Goku surpassing Gotenks and Gohan by Battle of Gods and getting to Gohan-Boo levels. 
That makes alot more sense and doesn't create fallacies. Such as: a) Well nobody doubted Gotenks power, so it must mean he's superior to Fat Boo or at least as strong. Actually no. Nobody confirmed it either, so it's sheer conjecture to assume sob) Nobody doubted Goku's prediction about Gotenk's strength So? Nobody confirmed it either. Krillen gives Gotenks the benefit of the doubt because of how cocky he is. Despite knowing of Super Saiyan, Piccolo insists Base Gotenks Pre needs to train and train for his battle against BooIt gets tiring going through the same old arguments time and time again.
Did Gohan prove that he was 4 years old when he was talking with the gang on Master Roshi's island? I didn't see any birth certificate confirming his age, so I guess he wasn't actually 4. Did Goku prove that he landed on Yardrat and not some other planet? I don't recall him providing any evidence of landing on Yardrat and training there, so it could've been any planet. Who's to say those clothes weren't from another alien planet? Did Raditz prove that he was Goku's brother? I don't recall him providing DNA results, so I guess Raditz and Goku aren't related. We generally believe statements until we're given a reason to doubt them.
Absolutely not. Not in the form of conjecture that is other-wise never proven or disproven. Check this out if you need to understand what I'm saying. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignoranceIf it still isn't enough for you to figure out what exactly you're missing out on then you might as well call yourself ignorant.
I get it. We should doubt every single statement in the manga that isn't supported by several other statements/pieces of evidence, right? Goku predicted Gotenks would be strong enough as a Super Saiyan. Piccolo never doubts his power, just his speed. Unless he was too high to even think or felt like being an enormous douche, he would've mentioned their power if it was insufficient. This type of thinking is a 'fallacy in informal logic'.
It's impossible for you to bring one direct statement to the table that confirms your interpretations of Piccolo's thoughts.
It's impossible.
Out of this lack of confirmation, you're choosing to create fallacies that aren't other-wise proven by their own sources or disproven by the same material.
Creating fallacies out of a lack of evidence? This is known as conjecture.
Edited by myst1c, Dec 23 2014, 10:05 PM.
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SSJ
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Dec 23 2014, 10:08 PM
Post #58
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Why do you guys bother?
Just put the guy on ignore.
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* Yu Narukami
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Dec 23 2014, 10:08 PM
Post #59
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Izanagi!
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- myst1c
- Dec 23 2014, 10:04 PM
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 23 2014, 10:01 PM
- myst1c
- Dec 23 2014, 09:58 PM
- Nagito Komaeda
- Dec 23 2014, 09:54 PM
- myst1c
- Dec 23 2014, 09:48 PM
- Pyrus
- Dec 23 2014, 07:16 AM
- Quote:
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Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8 Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?” Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”
Goku was suppressing down to Fat Boo's level. Going by the kiri meter, Boo could only have been about 2.5x stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Goku with Super Saiyan 3 would be four times stronger than he was with Super Saiyan 2, and he was already much stronger than Gohan. SSj2 Gohan - 1 SSj2 Goku - 1.5 Fat Boo - 2.5 SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3 SSj3 Goku - 6 - Quote:
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Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3 Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!” Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…”
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4 Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”
Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8 Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”
Goku was giving everyone hope in the face of desperation. It was only after training in the Room of Spirit and Time that Gotenks managed to pass up Fat Boo, and that was only with Super Saiyan 3. His other forms were irrelevant. Base Gotenks (pre) - 0.024 Base Gotenks (post) - 0.048 SSj2 Gohan - 1 SSj Gotenks (pre) - 1.2 SSj2 Goku - 1.5 SSj Gotenks (post) - 2.4 Fat Boo - 2.5 SSj3 Goku (suppressed) - 3 SSj3 Goku - 6 Evil Boo - 8.4 SSj3 Gotenks - 9.6 Ultimate Gohan - 11.6 Gotenks-Boo - 18 Gohan-Boo - 20 That also makes things a lot more believable for Goku surpassing Gotenks and Gohan by Battle of Gods and getting to Gohan-Boo levels. 
That makes alot more sense and doesn't create fallacies. Such as: a) Well nobody doubted Gotenks power, so it must mean he's superior to Fat Boo or at least as strong. Actually no. Nobody confirmed it either, so it's sheer conjecture to assume sob) Nobody doubted Goku's prediction about Gotenk's strength So? Nobody confirmed it either. Krillen gives Gotenks the benefit of the doubt because of how cocky he is. Despite knowing of Super Saiyan, Piccolo insists Base Gotenks Pre needs to train and train for his battle against BooIt gets tiring going through the same old arguments time and time again.
Did Gohan prove that he was 4 years old when he was talking with the gang on Master Roshi's island? I didn't see any birth certificate confirming his age, so I guess he wasn't actually 4. Did Goku prove that he landed on Yardrat and not some other planet? I don't recall him providing any evidence of landing on Yardrat and training there, so it could've been any planet. Who's to say those clothes weren't from another alien planet? Did Raditz prove that he was Goku's brother? I don't recall him providing DNA results, so I guess Raditz and Goku aren't related. We generally believe statements until we're given a reason to doubt them.
Absolutely not. Not in the form of conjecture that is other-wise never proven or disproven. Check this out if you need to understand what I'm saying. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignoranceIf it still isn't enough for you to figure out what exactly you're missing out on then you might as well call yourself ignorant.
I get it. We should doubt every single statement in the manga that isn't supported by several other statements/pieces of evidence, right? Goku predicted Gotenks would be strong enough as a Super Saiyan. Piccolo never doubts his power, just his speed. Unless he was too high to even think or felt like being an enormous douche, he would've mentioned their power if it was insufficient.
This type of thinking is a 'fallacy in informal logic'. It's impossible for you to bring one direct statement to the table that confirms your interpretations of Piccolo's thoughts. It's impossible. Out of this lack of confirmation, you're choosing to create fallacies that aren't other-wise proven by their own sources or disproven by the same material. Creating fallacies out of a lack of evidence? This is known as conjecture. While your talk of fallacies is amusing, it doesn't really contribute much to the conversation. There are quotes and implications that show that SSJ Gotenks (Pre) is > SSJ3 Goku. There's nothing that shows that SSJ3 Goku > SSJ Gotenks (Pre).
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EMIYA
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Dec 23 2014, 10:30 PM
Post #60
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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An argument is based upon the proof you can bring to it. The more solid the proof, the more possibility of the argument being true. This however is not an argument, you have states saying that SSJ Gotenks Pre>SSJ3 Goku. The power that Goku used against Fat Boo as Goku stated would be weaker than Gotenks. He was absolutely confident and without contradiction that Gotenks would also defeat Fat Boo.
Thus he'd also have to to take into consideration Fat Boo going on easy on him as well during their fight. And this was at the time when he was remarking that he still couldn't beat Fat Boo. It's only after a while when they face Kid Boo that he admits he could've done the job. You honestly think Goku would just go around lying and stuff if he actually knows he's that much stronger? The same guy who tells it as it is?
I can say SSJ Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku because its actually stated. Someone, that being Goku himself says Gotenks would be stronger than him. We already see what happened with Base Gotenks so we know it must refer to SSJ Gotenks.
But when someone comes up and says "oh no, Goku was holding back over half his power" do you know what that's called? It's called conjecture, it has absolutely no merit int he argument whatsoever. You say Goku was holding back against Fat Boo? Fair enough, I can throw that same argument right there and say Fat Boo was holding back as well. Goku's interaction with Fat Boo and Kid Boo were both similar. His opponents lollygagged through the fight a bit, he Goku either held back or didn't finish the job as quickly as he could and in both cases he states he could have defeated the other.
And then here comes Gotenks out of the ROSAT, his base form superior to his SSJ form. And yes it is, because I'm tired as f*** of people ignoring this. Piccolo states Pre-Gotenks has no chance and begs for a miracle. He actually thinks Base Gotenks (post) has a chance. I don't care if you use a 50x SSJ multiplier, a 10x, a 5x or a 1.004x...Gotenks Base superiority over SSJ Gotenks (pre) is noted there.
Whether you or I or anyone else don't like that doesn't mean a damn. The manga doesn't have to follow what you think, you need to follow what the manga tells you. If the manga went up said Gotenks got a 1,000x stronger in a day then guess what? Gotenks got that much stronger and whether you like it or not is your own fault. That doesn't mean you ignore what the manga shows you.
And then you have SSj2 Gotenks...and then SSJ3 Gotenks, the guy Super Boo is more or less rivaling in power. And then you have Gohan making a mockery of said Super Boo. In the end, you get this chain.
Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks~Super Boo>SSJ2 Gotenks>SSJ Gotenks>Base Gotenks>SSJ Gotenks (Pre)>SSJ3 Goku.
That's the chain outright implied within the manga. Anything else is conjecture. You want to get SSj3 Goku above Gotenks, much less Gohan? Good luck because there is nothing to support that claim.
But things like statements and stuff don't mean a crap do they? It's not about what the manga says? Manga be damned right? If the manga doesn't follow what I want then I can just ignore it. That's exactly what's going on here. It's the same crap with the Base Gotenks debate, its the same crap here with making up all whole bunch of conjecture and ignoring the outright statements in the manga.
It's like arguing with a religious fundamentalist.
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