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Do you accept Base Gotenks [post] >> SSJ Gotenks [pre] ?
Yes 13 (76.5%)
No 4 (23.5%)
Total Votes: 17
Do you accept Base Gotenks [post] >> SSJ Gotenks [pre] ?
Topic Started: Dec 18 2014, 04:05 AM (1,037 Views)
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FutureProtagonist
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I don't really "accept" it. I think it's a load of crap and turned out that way accidentally; I doubt Toriyama ever intended Gotenks/Gohan to be so Godlike compared to Goku (who is still a goddamned Super Saiyan 3).

I do however, accept that that's the way it turned it and that there's no real argument against it. My bias tells me that it's crap, but if it's what the manga says, then that's what I'm going to defend.
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FutureProtagonist
Dec 18 2014, 04:11 AM
I don't really "accept" it. I think it's a load of crap and turned out that way accidentally; I doubt Toriyama ever intended Gotenks/Gohan to be so Godlike compared to Goku (who is still a goddamned Super Saiyan 3).

I do however, accept that that's the way it turned it and that there's no real argument against it. My bias tells me that it's crap, but if it's what the manga says, then that's what I'm going to defend.
Well worded, this pretty much sums up how I feel about it. While I personally feel Gotenks should atleast be multi-fold Goku, I don't think the high tier Fusion saga guys were meant to be thousands of times stronger than Goku or Vegeta.
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FutureProtagonist
Dec 18 2014, 04:11 AM
I don't really "accept" it. I think it's a load of crap and turned out that way accidentally; I doubt Toriyama ever intended Gotenks/Gohan to be so Godlike compared to Goku (who is still a goddamned Super Saiyan 3).

I do however, accept that that's the way it turned it and that there's no real argument against it. My bias tells me that it's crap, but if it's what the manga says, then that's what I'm going to defend.
I concur with this. Bias is the detriment to successful discussions on the topic. It is the penultimate destroyer of calm demeanors and polite passages, behind only ignorance in severity.

In this particular topic, many of the explanations that downplay or detract from the growth of Gotenks can be called out as bias masked by an intellectual approach. Over time this kind of bias can be lessened, either by peer pressure, gradual depreciation of initial thoughts, new information from official sources, or a mixture of all three (for instance, a great majority of fans used to put Super Saiyan Goten & Trunks no more than 100% Freeza level, but now you'll find the general consensus has changed drastically to the point where there is a good portion of the community that has them above even Piccolo).

My understanding of Gotenks is that he was in fact stronger in his regular form after the Room of Spirit and Time than he was as a Super Saiyan prior, and this would be supported by the manga's narrative, of course. It may be numerically challenging, but Toriyama was never one concerned with numbers, so it may not have ever crossed his mind what he was accomplishing with the way he wrote his situations, and that's why I have no real issue accepting it.
Edited by Pyrus, Dec 18 2014, 07:35 AM.
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Fearless Saiyajin
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Legendary of Super Saiyan

No, I don't accept it. He was contradicted by Super Boo at all. I don't take the scenes seriously.
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FutureProtagonist
Dec 18 2014, 04:11 AM
I don't really "accept" it. I think it's a load of crap and turned out that way accidentally; I doubt Toriyama ever intended Gotenks/Gohan to be so Godlike compared to Goku (who is still a goddamned Super Saiyan 3).

I do however, accept that that's the way it turned it and that there's no real argument against it. My bias tells me that it's crap, but if it's what the manga says, then that's what I'm going to defend.
I like this answer. A lot of my own is similar to this one.

And there's nothing I can do about it, so I'm beginning to complain less.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Piccolo was so stressed out at the idea of Pre-Gotenks facing Boo that he made it absolutely certain that Gotenks not only stood zero chances, he told him to get into the ROSAT immediately and went as far as to tell Boo to kill off humanity just in the hopes of buying a little more time. He was desperate, he was scared, desperate and begging for a miracle. There was nothing gag-related or funny about this scene. It was taken dead seriously and with Boo killing Goten's mother on top of it along with butchering humanity, this was not something that was funny.

Piccolo sees Gotenks in the ROSAT and he thinks that yes, Gotenks has gotten stronger. He's definitely improved and has more confidence in this one then he did before.

I think the answer to this question is obvoius. Yes, Base Gotenks is stronger than SSJ Pre-Gotenks. Regardless of whether you use a 10x multiplier or a 50x multiplier shouldn't matter. What should matter is what is actually stated and shown in the manga and what's shown is that yes, Gotenks has made some huge gains. Some powerful ones and its enough that Piccolo thought something could be done.

The only issue is that, as powerful as Gotenks has gotten, Super Boo is still the superior fighter.
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Crap, I selected the wrong option.

Anyway... no. Suspension of disbelief has its limits, and becoming more than 50 times stronger in just a week or two while being limited to training sessions of a half-hour at most is quite a bit beyond what I can accept and just chalk up to "DB logic."

Thankfully, the humorous nature of the scene and character allow some wiggle room for a less literal interpretation. Since the end result ultimately effects nothing beyond my own made-up power level lists, I'm grateful for that flexibility.

I don't lean this way out of any sort of so-called "bias" against Gotenks or for anyone else. Despite how much he's argued about, I still like Gotenks as a character. It's just plain beyond what I'm willing to accept as making any sort of sense, so I'll opt for any alternative explanations that are available.
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Um...yes. Piccolo and to a lesser extent Trunks both say this is the case. Kinda like asking if I accept Nappa was stronger than a Saibaman.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Piccolo all but outright states that Gotenks is stronger. He shows confidence in this Base Gotenks when before he was beginning for miracles.

Instead of trying to ignore direct statements in the manga, statements from one if not the most intelligent fighter in the series just to fit your own belief system. Maybe you can try to work with that statement so that it doesn't contradict anything. For example you can admit that yes, Gotenks has gotten much stronger. He's now gotten to the point that Piccolo feels a lot more confidence about him than he did before. Whether you use a 10x multiplier or a 50x one doesn't really matter.

I use a 50x just because I like being consistent but even AT remarked that he only imagined it be 10x before. He was obviously pointed out that this was wrong at the time in the Freeza Arc and wouldn't work but shows that even he was imagining these huge numbers on it. But again that's beside the point, even if was a 1,000x increase that doesn't matter. Our job is to fit the number to the manga, not the manga to our numbers.

So then you can admit that Gotenks is superior from before because everyone else does. Then you can say that even though Gotenks has gotten much stronger, Super Boo is still on a completely different level. It's not new that an opponent will suddenly shoot up in power without making any real effort on their part.

And I'd rather do that. I'd rather take Piccolo's remark to heart and just infer the idea that their misinterpreting Boo's power at the time than to assume Piccolo went stupid on his to the ROSAT and is telling outright lies now.
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I don't believe Piccolo's stupid. Just that he's over-reacting.

I'm also not denying that Gotenks got a lot stronger. Only not nearly so much as to have surpassed his Super Saiyan self.

Edited by Kaboom, Dec 19 2014, 05:27 AM.
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Kaboom
Dec 18 2014, 11:36 PM
Crap, I selected the wrong option.

Anyway... no. Suspension of disbelief has its limits, and becoming more than 50 times stronger in just a week or two while being limited to training sessions of a half-hour at most is quite a bit beyond what I can accept and just chalk up to "DB logic."

Thankfully, the humorous nature of the scene and character allow some wiggle room for a less literal interpretation. Since the end result ultimately effects nothing beyond my own made-up power level lists, I'm grateful for that flexibility.

I don't lean this way out of any sort of so-called "bias" against Gotenks or for anyone else. Despite how much he's argued about, I still like Gotenks as a character. It's just plain beyond what I'm willing to accept as making any sort of sense, so I'll opt for any alternative explanations that are available.
The events in the manga boil down to what you personally accept? If so, that doesn't sound like a very objective point of view and leads precisely to the type of thinking you mentioned at the end of your post, that being any alternative—seemingly no matter its content or validity—is better than taking what happened. It would be akin to Father Brofist saying he doesn't believe Piccolo got more than 5x stronger in six days on Kaio's when all we saw was him do was meditate, so instead of accepting that at face value he claims Piccolo did get a lot stronger, perhaps 2-3x, but the rest was an overreaction. It sounds like simply not liking what happened based on personal presupposition.

Am I understanding this correctly, or did I fall off Snake Way at some point?

*In order to be confident against someone stronger than an 18k Vegeta, in accordance with Piccolo's 3,500 guidebook number.
Edited by Pyrus, Dec 19 2014, 09:32 AM.
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