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| Meruem vs Madara | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 14 2014, 12:32 PM (4,685 Views) | |
| + supersaqer | Dec 14 2014, 12:32 PM Post #1 |
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Who of those two legendary villains would win in a fight? Clash of legendary titans! |
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| Mihawk | Dec 19 2014, 05:43 PM Post #31 |
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Well yeah, his overall durability and physical strength is higher than Meruem but I doubt he's strong enough to constantly let out Tsunade level punches all the time. That's what it'd take to take out normal Susanoo. And you're right I take it back now I'll have it'll require at least MS Madara since he needs Susanoo to keep up his defenses. While I think the Meruem's ability to somewhat survive a nuclear blast is commendable, it shouldn't be looked into too much beyond the fact that scraps of metal can get out lucky just being burned inside nuclear blasts too. Madara would definitely have to resort to PS to take out Mereum. One of those PS attacks would connect eventually and hurt him pretty badly; Netero was only in ballpark sound speed range. But once PS comes it out it's over - Meruem or HxH don't have any feats that would scratch PS and no way he's surviving an attack that resulted in mountains being destroyed from waving a sword. |
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| + supersaqer | Dec 19 2014, 07:06 PM Post #32 |
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You mean Madara, don't you? He can let out punches that massively outstrips that of Tsunade easily. The Miniature Rose is different if you look at it. It was massive and powerful, capable of completely vaporizing the nuclear bunker, vaporizing dozens of large plateaus, vaporizing the upper ground, and turning the lower ground into lava. You must have in mind that nuclear blasts isn't all about destructive force, but heat and radiation too. Meruem took on thousands of powerful attacks, and an attack that cut him and bruised him. That's perfect for heat to bypass his exoskeleton and hurt his insides. Meruem wasn't ready for it too. He'd dodge them with ease. Nope, he wasn't in that range. He was much faster than it. Madara's sword slash only cut mountains in half. Meruem can effortlessly vaporize a large plateaus with zero rage stored. The PS's strength doesn't equate its durability. Meruem blasts it open, enters and takes out Madara. Meruem is just too fast for him. |
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| + Steve | Dec 19 2014, 08:10 PM Post #33 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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I think he could manage Tsunade level perhaps, with usage of Gyo or Ko. Considering how much he learned of battle in one fight I don't think it'd be that hard for him to work out how to focus his energy in to a fist. Hard to tell how fast Netero was really faster than sound for sure but that was for a Netero in his 50's or something, he's easily double that by the time of his fight with Meruem ad not stated to be all that much weaker. Obviously he's not going to be like 10 times sound speed but having transcended his physical limit, double at least. Even if he's not faster he has far more agility than any Naruto character has shown they all have more of a straight line speed whereas Meruem can be bouncing around everywhere while monologe-ing his plans. Well, PS doesn't really have any durability feats to comment on for all we know it could be no more durable than normal just there's far more of it to destroy. I doubt it'd shrug off one of those beams, it wouldn't get wrecked for sure but it would take damage. Which would only increase as Meruem got pissed off from taking hits. |
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| + supersaqer | Dec 19 2014, 08:55 PM Post #34 |
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Meruem's fists are massively higher than that of Tsunade. This should be common knowledge. Netero didn't have Nen there, and him being that slow after learning Nen is actually insane. Have in mind that was just his punch, not a blow from his statue. Neferpitou, without her Hatsu, and using 50% of her strength in that leap, she blitzed Kite from two kilometers. Using all of her might against Netero, she didn't see anything and was smacked away, even before she activated her technique, and she was initiating it. Netero should be undoubtedly MHS+. His strikes are way too fast for the King, as Meruem admitted himself. His effortless, zero rage stored blast is capable of vaporizing a large plateau, so yeah.... |
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| Mihawk | Dec 19 2014, 09:01 PM Post #35 |
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Yeah I meant Madara sorry. I don't see evidence for Meruem hitting nearly as hard as Tsunade. I see speculation, scaling, and conjecture; but not evidence. It's not like Meruem was caught in the core of the attack. We know how absurdly fast he is from earlier in the manga and this is without a doubt his top speed trying to save himself. The radiation of a nuclear attack take time to sink in, which is exactly what happened. I don't see evidence for Meruem dodging Madara's attacks with ease. He was getting hit with Netero's attacks which are in the ballpark of sound. This was surpassed a long time ago in Naruto way back with Sasuke. PS's sword cut mountains in half by waving the sword, not through even an attack. It's also a wave like attack, so it's going to go straight forward rather than have explosive force. Not to mention that mountains and the hill that Meruem destroyed are not even comparable. I'll give you the point with PS not equating to durability, mainly because there isn't any direct evidence for it. I was just doing saying it because sometimes Steve pumps up Aizen by saying Aizen can send out attacks the same caliber of what he can tank.
Like I said above there's not any evidence for anyone in HxH being near Tsunade. He could do it perhaps, but not repeatedly for sure which is what he'd need. And Netero even said he was way stronger in his prime when he saw Pitou. I don't see how that equates to him being faster outside his prime. You're right about PS not having any durability feats, I'd just assume it should be considerable higher than Susanoo to the point that Tsunade or even 10 Tsunades wouldn't break through it. And as I said you do it all the time when equating Aizen's durability feat with his striking ability.
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| + Steve | Dec 20 2014, 01:16 AM Post #36 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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Why not? Punching in HxH doesn't really use any aura it just requires moving it to one place. There's no evidence to suggest Meruem's punches aren't as strong they just don't lift up big platforms like Sakura's but that's just something Kishimoto wrote in not that it would actually happen so that Meruem doesn't do that doesn't make his punches weaker, plus he's hitting with a far harder object combined with density not just the latter. We can't scale yeah but Killua at 16 tons very early in the series without Nen is a fairly good indicator Meruem is the ultimate being, far more evolved than any human in the series and has ridiculously powerful Nen. He should easily be pushing over a hundred tons. Well, we don't even know when his prime was and he never said that his arm movements got slower, why would they really? They're obviously going to be the main thing he keeps in shape. I think sound speed is fairly high in HxH but all the strong characters should be above it, Hisoka for example he was catching Gotoh's coins with ease which he stated to be faster than bullets, for arguments sake lets say no more than double and with a 9mm round that puts them between like 450m/s and 800m/s, the latter is well over the speed of sound. Hisoka is definitely not as strong as Netero and his training isn't focused on having fast arm movements like Netero's. If Hisoka can catch objects faster than bullets, also multiple and with ease, there's no way Netero was only at sound level with arm movements, the dudes over 100 who knows when his prime was really. I use 9mm just because that's the least amount of speed it could realistically be referring to a 7.62×51mm NATO goes over or around 800m/s, an assault rifle round is possibly what Hisoka meant but for arguments sake 9mm, although the Phantom Troupe were having no issues dodging hundreds of Mafia guys with rifles shooting at them. That Aizen bit aimed at me? Not sure what you mean. But anyway his physical strikes probably wouldn't do much to PS but his beam should, it might not blow up a large area but it's a concentrated beam of Nen which when put in to paper can make said paper cut through aluminum(presumably) and get stuck in a wall, it should have a pretty darn high level of penetrative force. Not to mention the weight of the attack since a lot of Nen is packed in to it. Edited by Steve, Dec 20 2014, 01:20 AM.
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| + supersaqer | Dec 20 2014, 10:07 AM Post #37 |
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Why not? Uvogin didn't go all out in that punch, and he's much weaker than Meruem. Much much weaker. We were shown that he got attacked in the core of the attack. Again, he was caught off guard. Netero's attacks are in the ballpark of sound speed? First of all, Netero didn't know Nen back that time. Second of all, you can't compare a punch from Netero who didn't know Nen, to a hit from Netero's statue, which massively surpasses Meruem's speed. Well, Pitou crossed two kilometers and torn off Kite's arm before he reacted to it. That's massively faster than sound. We have a lot of feats that surpass the sound speed from way early in the series. Sasuke didn't surpass the speed of sound during the Chuunin Exams if that's what you mean. He actually sliced through them. Yeah, I know that, but Mereum completely vaporized it with an effortless attack that gets its power from rage. Madara only sliced the mountains in half. Edited by supersaqer, Dec 20 2014, 10:07 AM.
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| Mihawk | Dec 20 2014, 07:44 PM Post #38 |
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Even if we scale Meruem up to pushing 100 tons that means absolutely nothing in comparison to Tsunade who was throwing around a 100 ton tanto like it was nothing. Prime: of the best possible quality; excellent. a state or time of greatest strength, vigor, or success in a person's life. Prime does actually mean best. Outside of your physical prime you will be slower. At the very least you won't be faster. Source for Gotoh's coins being faster than the speed of sound? I don't remember reading that in the manga. Actually I don't even think it was in the anime. That's debunked later on anyway when Spoiler: click to toggle What I meant by the Aizen bit was that you usually say Aizen can hit out mountain destroying physical attacks because he can tank them. But now you're saying PS can't tank as much as it can hit out. ![]() Doesn't seem like it'd remotely hurt PS. Hell, I think even normal Susanoo should tank that.
Yeah but just because he's much weaker doesn't mean Meruem can casually throw out attacks on that level. Uvogon is the best enhancer in the series. HxH doesn't work at all the same way that Dragonball does with just because you're stronger or have higher nen level you can do the same attacks or speed. He probably can replicate it to some degree seeing that he's an ultimate being, but he'd still need to charge up and have a similar angle to do it. Source for Netero not knowing nen? We're comparing stated speeds vs calculated speeds. One is solid evidence while the other isn't. And it was implied that if Gon wasn't there he wouldn't have needed to cover for them and be able to react easily. Sasuke without acceleration dodged a sound blast. That is surpassing the speed of sound. No Madara just waved his sword and mountains were sliced in half from just the waving of it. ![]() His sword isn't long enough for slicing through them. And if you're actually saying that Meruem's attack was at all casual then Madara did this in his mother's womb since that'd be the only way to equalize it. |
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| + Steve | Dec 20 2014, 09:04 PM Post #39 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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Well with Aizen strength seems fairly linear in Bleach for one thing and he wasn't tanking hits he was clashing with Ichigo and not being knocked back so he should be able to bust mountains, maybe not as easily as Ichigo but not far off. 100 is being generous though it makes sense for him to be way above that really especially since he could know powerful warriors out with mere tapsl Even if he doesn't have the physical strength to lift over 100 tons with the way Nen works it would add a great amount of piercing force to his attacks which is why techniques like Gyo and Ko exist as it buffs them to a certain degree. I don't see how it's not possible for Netero's arms to be as strong as they were in his prime if you train only one area the rest will decay but that one area won't. Considering he trained for what 3 years just doing those 10,000 or so punches a day I highly doubt he'd have let his arms get weak. He wasn't in his overall physical prime but his arms should be at their prime, essentially. Hisoka says he "fires them faster than bullets" pretty much all modern bullets are faster than sound and HxH is definitely modern-advanced so who knows bullets could be even faster but worthless arguing that. I don't know the specifics of that and don't want to spoil myself. Maybe they don't want to Nen out against civilians? Nen is supposed to be a secret in their world. That doesn't really mean anything, Killua was taking shots from Ikalgo even to the head I doubt they're hiding because they need to to survive. Unless Killua > Ging which is highly doubtful. How would it not? How often does Susano'o tank explosions? Doesn't it get broke by a Massive Rasengan at one point? Pretty sure even Raikage manages to crack it and he couldn't even take out Sasuke with a direct hit to the face, dude was barely injured even. Plus "let's give it a try" not "Let's go full power on this sucker" That was a pretty casual blast with very little charge time and it's an attack that's power increases with rage, Meruem was clearly calm at that point. Barely bigger than Youpi's blasts, obviously pissing around because nothing would realistically survive that as far as Meruem knew. A direct hit from PS would probably kill Meruem but if the fight got that far, which face it would take some time given how Madara plays fights out he wouldn't be dumb enough to stay in range. If he can take a nuke he can take that shockwave, if all that energy was focused in to one point it might kill him but it's not. |
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| Mihawk | Dec 20 2014, 10:11 PM Post #40 |
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Then in the same sense PS Susanoo can tank blasts that destroy mountains. No way Meruem is breaking through that.
Conjecture+scaling, pretty much what you accuse people of in the DB battles
Either way his arms are still in the ball park of the speed of sound. It's not like he surpassed it or anything like you were suggesting earlier. Sasuke dodged a sound blast as a genin.
Just read the manga chapter on it, couldn't find it. When I tried to Google for the source all I find is thread on another forum by supersaqer.
It was done by people who knew the full extent of their power and still thought they could take them out with bullets. Spoiler: click to toggle He later sneak attacks them through the cave wall so he wouldn't have to face the bullets.
Well no, we really haven't seen Susanoo trying to take on any explosions. The only tanking I remember was this: Apart from that Oonoki also broke it with his max particle style attack, but he's an island buster. Also I think Madara said he got hit on purpose to show Hashirama's face or something.
Oh I know it's not a full power attack, but it's hardly casual. You could never call a charged attack casual that's the thing.
Meruem didn't take on the blunt of the nuke so it's hardly relevant. We see him trying to fly as fast as possible and in the end he eventually gets burnt to a crisp. And no way in hell SSJ 3 Meruem is tanking a PS Susanoo's sword wave. |
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| + supersaqer | Dec 21 2014, 12:01 PM Post #41 |
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Spoiler: click to toggle Gotoh's coins were actually massively faster than bullets, so yeah... Well, that was an effortless blast from Meruem, who had zero rage stored. I'm pretty sure that that blast would hurt the PS. He's not the best enhancer in the series. Gon is better than him. Well, Meruem was casually flicking Netero's limbs. Uvogin's 100% BBI only broke Kurapika's arm. We didn't see any aura covering Netero the entire time he was training, nor when he did that punch. That's how I concluded it. It was stated if neither were there, Kite's arm won't probably be ripped off. Still, Pitou crossed that entire way in a split second, at half her power, and without a Hatsu. Sound blast? That was a 100% air pressure wave. You need to know that Zaku's ability is to control air pressure and sound waves. That blast, which was powerful, should be at 100% air pressure and 0% sound waves. The nearest mountain, which the sword was able to get to, was the only one to be broken into pieces. The other ones got their tips sliced, not from half the mountain. That wasn't casual. Meruem was shown to effortlessly do it, and not just shatter the plateau, but vaporize it. That attack needed rage power, and Meruem had zero rage stored. Edited by supersaqer, Dec 21 2014, 12:02 PM.
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| + Steve | Dec 21 2014, 01:47 PM Post #42 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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(Not quoting because on ipod) About PS tanking, that makes no sense because Naruto doesn't scale linearly at all how much chakra someone has doesn't define how strong someone is in that case from the beginning Naruto should have tanked everything. It works in Bleach so that has nothing to do with Naruto. Its impossible to tell just how strong Meruem is but come on Killua's 16 tons is a low end feat as if Meruem isn't much higher than that he's by far the strongest being(as far as the anime goes) practically a god compared to the rest, like he's only going to be in the 17 ton range. And the rest of that is fact Nen buffs people and things, remember the rock smashing exercise where Gon and Killua smashed rocks with ones the same size? It's the knife/punch vs pillow thing which I'm pretty sure you said in another thread Wolf. You can say that for a fact? Netero broke past his limit that was when he was 50-60 he's at least double that by his fight with Meruem, not at his max but he should definitely be stronger than his 50-60 year old self. Well, maybe they wanted a challenge. You're not suggesting bullets would do anything are you? Uvogin was tanking rockets, Killua fought a whole army. Both Gung and Pariston like to have fun. There's no way Itachi tanked Kirin without using the Yata Mirror he obviously took damage because it's an AOE attack he'd have been destroyed without that defence. Or Tsunade > Kirin? Didn't Madara absorb Oonoki's attack? Thought that was the general concensus or stated can't remember. How is it not casual he put like no effort in to it, it's an attack that just has some amount of charge time. Plus it was a new power of course it had to be showcased. If Meruem got far away it would have been shown at best he could have got to the opening of the tomb or whatever before it exploded, it wouldn't make much difference you don't have to be 1cm away from a nuke to have it give the full effect. Are you suggesting he only took half the damage or something? Because that's kind of ridiculous if he managed to get away at all he'd not have been in the blast radius and it would have been completely wasted. EDIT as for Hisoka Spoiler: click to toggle The line is "power" but that should still equate to speed as he can obviously increase their strength with rotation, which he hadn't done yet and being Nen based obviously they'd have more literal power than real bullets anyway. Edited by Steve, Dec 22 2014, 12:02 AM.
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| + supersaqer | Dec 22 2014, 12:45 PM Post #43 |
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Meruem ripped off Netero's limbs without the intent of killing him. Uvogin's BBI, at 100%, only broke Kurapika's arm. He was taking on thousands of hits from the statue, and felt only dull pain. Just one of those hands made a gigantic crater even after Meruem took on the force of it. At that time, Netero was roughly 50 years old. He shouldn't have known Nen at that time. He must have learned it in the sixty years that followed. Also you have to bear in mind that it was just a punch, and the statement is vague. "Faster than sound" can be said to pretty much anything faster than it. From bullets to lightning to the speed of light. The speed of a much stronger Netero with Nen, using his Hatsu, should be much more faster than that. I already replied to that statement. He completely misread the page. Uvogin, who wasn't using Nen because he have shown it after he took on the anti-tank rocket, took on it with ease. Killua also said he had no problems with tanks and jet fighters. Meruem was shown that he was caught off guard, and he didn't get away from the tomb. He was hit at point blank range. I thought it was speed since that's what was stated in the anime, and this translation isn't official too. It's far far more powerful than bullets since no Nen Uvogin tanked an anti-tank rocket with ease, and Hisoka was shown to have trouble with the coins. |
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| + Steve | Dec 22 2014, 01:29 PM Post #44 |
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My post was at Wolf btw just cba quoting on my iPod takes forever I'm pretty sure he knew Nen there, that's why he lived so long because it can extend your life greatly not read the chapters but it showed it in the anime. He just got as strong as he possibly could then broke that barrier, I doubt he got that much faster than sound but there's no way he didn't improve between that flashback and his death, even if he deteriorated for a while his prime obviously wasn't before he broke his limits...he couldn't have got stronger and not been in his prime. |
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| + supersaqer | Dec 22 2014, 01:53 PM Post #45 |
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I already know that. He was 50, so nothing to really talk about. On average, people live up to 80 right now. People who train like Netero did can extend their lifetimes by a lot more. He certainly didn't know Nen there. He didn't have aura over his body at all in the flashback. There was over 60+ years gap between the flashback and his appearance in the CA arc, which is where you can speculate he could have learned Nen in. Cheetu stood for time, and then the police shot him. The bullet reached nearly his eye, froze, and then he disappeared, took the fingers of the police, and went to the other direction. That's massively faster than sound, and he's nowhere near Meruem's level. Netero is much faster than Meruem. Edited by supersaqer, Dec 22 2014, 01:54 PM.
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