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SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza : How Close Are They?
Topic Started: Dec 9 2014, 04:09 AM (5,850 Views)
+ Ryebrid
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They're close, but not close enough for me to consider the fight going either way.

Goku is the winner in all cases, IMHO.
Edited by Ryebrid, Dec 10 2014, 12:34 PM.
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* Ketchup Revenge
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

We also need to consider that Goku's ability to sense ki really gave him an advantage. Even if they were even in PL, Goku would probably have an edge.
Freeza might have been able to sense his own attack before it sliced him in two.
In addition to this, we've seen what muscle-pumping transformations do, at least the Super Saiyan variants. They make you strong, but they also exhaust you and burn your ki out. I don't think there's any reason to believe that Freeza's variant would've had different characteristics.

However, one could argue for Freeza's telekinesis, which likely doesn't use ki.
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Gracek90
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The power gap which you are going to see depends, on the fact how you are looking into the fight between both of them. For me it was one-sided. After all Frieza was not able to deal any damage to Goku. Thus i am fine with 150-120
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lazerbem
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Gracek90
Dec 10 2014, 03:12 PM
The power gap which you are going to see depends, on the fact how you are looking into the fight between both of them. For me it was one-sided. After all Frieza was not able to deal any damage to Goku. Thus i am fine with 150-120
...Didn't do any damage? He plowed Goku's face into the ground and was drawing blood with his strikes, he was doing damage.

There were less injuries in the Cell vs Goku(barring the Warp Kamehameha) battle, was that uneven?
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

alright, ignoring the whole issue with the gaps, I do have to ask this? What's with this whole "One-sided fight" or "Goku was going easy" or "Freeza was getting his butt kicked the entire time" issue that seems to be going on in this fight? Because I look at that fight and I see Freeza and Goku having a darn near equal battle up until the stamina issue, give the overall advantage to Goku. I see Freeza's blows causing Goku great pain and suffering.

But apparently some people are looking at this fight and they're seeing something I don't. They're seeing a one-sided battle with Freeza completely losing? I have to ask why? Where do you see this? It's not like Goku has a calm expression during the fight. It's not like he's dodging all of Freeza's attacks. He's popping veins and stuff in the KHH and apparently yelling "Die Freeza!"

There's no statements before or after that says Goku is going easy. If it has to do with the fact that Goku seems to be ready to fight at the end while Freeza's gagging and stuff. I think that's obvious. Freeza only hit him a few times and while those hits certainly hurt and caused him pain, it wouldn't be enough to knock down his stamina complete. Freeza on the other hand got hit nearly twice as much and is also under the huge pressure of his strained 100% form.

I think there's no wonder that by the end of the fight, Freeza looks like he's about to keel over and Goku looks a bit more calm. But I don't think that's a sign of Goku being overwhelmingly superior to 100% Freeza. I think that's just a sign that Freeza, along with have a power disatvantage overall, is severely handicapped in terms of how much ki he can use and the strain on his body.

I think that while the gap doesn't change, if Freeza was at his healthiest without those huge strain from the Genki-Dama and what not, he'd have landed more blows and the fight would've lasted much longer with Goku having to now put more stamina into the fight as well.
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Gracek90
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It goes with my experience as a fighter. Thus I am looking on a fight in a different manner. First of all, the time of fight was about 5 minutes, tops. Goku was not affected by these attacks. Damage he took was mostly superficial. Compare this to a boxing fight which last for three rounds in which one of the fighters is able to land three or four hits. Not single one of them is able to affect the second fighter. Yes, you are going to hit him but you are not able to deal any significant damage, while your enemy hits have a strong effect on you. Furthermore, after first three frieza attacks, Goku literally said that he is going to be dissapointed if this is best he has to offer. For me fight which last for less than 5 minutes and shows one of the fighter as being unable to deal any significant damage, is one-sided.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

How do you know he wasn't effected by those attacks?

When does Goku refer to Freeza's attacks as being disappointing? Unless you are referring to the initial attack Freeza did at the start, and even Freeza states that he was just warming up there. So I feel that's kind of a moot point to be made in such a case. After that though, I don't see any line where Goku is saying Freeza's attacks are going to be disappointing.
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lazerbem
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Gracek90
Dec 10 2014, 11:29 PM
It goes with my experience as a fighter. Thus I am looking on a fight in a different manner. First of all, the time of fight was about 5 minutes, tops. Goku was not affected by these attacks. Damage he took was mostly superficial. Compare this to a boxing fight which last for three rounds in which one of the fighters is able to land three or four hits. Not single one of them is able to affect the second fighter. Yes, you are going to hit him but you are not able to deal any significant damage, while your enemy hits have a strong effect on you. Furthermore, after first three frieza attacks, Goku literally said that he is going to be dissapointed if this is best he has to offer. For me fight which last for less than 5 minutes and shows one of the fighter as being unable to deal any significant damage, is one-sided.
It lasted 5 minutes because of Freeza's ki strain. And breathing really hard along with bleeding tends to give the impression that you are not dominating, which Goku was after getting rammed
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

If you want to say Goku's stamina wasn't being effected as much that's one thing. It's really hard to have your energy taken down a lot when your only being hit 4-5 (I'm not counting Freeza's intial assault here as that obviously didn't mean much to either of them) times compared to guy who got hit about 7-8 times. Add in the fact that Goku apparently got almost rejuvenated when he transformed compared to Freeza who got nearly killed by the Genki-Dama, then beaten around by SSJ Goku initially and is now using an incredibly strained 100% form.

I don't think anyone would disagree that Goku's stamina greatly surpasses Freeza at this point and that even if Freeza's attacks can hurt Goku, in the end, Freeza just doesn't have the capability to keep the fight up. It's a partial difference in strength but also a huge difference in stamina and time. Freeza lacks the stamina and time on his side.

But, I don't see how you can tell me that Freeza's attacks are being ineffective though. I don't see how Goku having blood draw, grinding his teeth, popping his veins, yelling "Die Freeza" and showing visible discomfort is a sign of Freeza's attacks being ineffective. I think its pretty clear that Freeza is at a level that Goku can't go easy on him. There's nothing saying that Goku is holding back, or pulling his punches, or anything like that.

The entire fight essentially boiled down to the two hitting each other as hard as they could and in the end, Freeza went down quicker. Something that we know is the whole stamina issue. But I don't see anyone can look at this fight, and think that Goku was dominating the fight.
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StrawHatCrew
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I don't really care for the DaizenShuu numbers or anything DaizenShuu related to begin with (I don't have a problem with it though), but I think fan's opinion clearly overrides the DaizenShuu. The DaizenShuu was just some randomly thought up numbers, they thought would be somewhat fitting because they look close to each other. Whereas the fans used logic for their arguments & numbers.

Kaboom, if you agree with my post, but don't want to admit it, just like my post. No-one will notice.

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Father Brofist
Dec 9 2014, 08:41 PM
Yes I'd rather take a consistent trend that has never been contradicted in the manga then to have to change up the entire trend from the manga to fit with some random BS in a guidebook. Official sure, credible is questionable.

But no, you do this all the time Kaboom on this topic. Instead of trying to help provide evidence on your case, providing some statements, feats, indications, anything to support yourself. You just come up and claim "There's no rule so we should just take the Guidebook seriously." In short, you provide nothing to actually support your claim.

If I have 10 sources indicating that gaps of 1.3x or higher is significantly in favor for one side and then 1 source saying that it isn't. What do you think I'm going to do? I'm not going to try to make the manga fit the guidebooks, I need to make the guidebooks fit the manga.

Consistency, evidence, statements, feats. All of these heavily support, in a complete favor towards the idea of how gaps work. You think I or a lot of other people are going to try to change up the entire trend of the manga to work with one thing in the guidebooks? Here's another question, you think I'm going to change up the entire form of a vaccine just because one out of a thousand people don't get cured?
1. I thought Goku's base on Namek was 3,000,000? Yes/no?

Toriyama's own words [interview] confirmed [at least Goku's] SS transformation was officially x50.

Unless I'm totally wrong about Goku's base being 3,000,000, 150,000,000 seems right to me.

The difference of 30,000,000 seems plausible to me as Goku landed more punches and caused more damage to Freeza.

Besides Freeza's Nova Strike and the punches that came after Nova's Strike that send Goku to the lava, what else did Freeza really do that hurt Goku? I remember Goku elbowing Freeza and caused him/her to cough out blood = meaning internal damage.

Yes, I don't think it's totally one-sided, but I do think Goku won majority of the battles.

To me, a difference of 10,000,000 means Freeza has to cause more damage to Goku and the fight could go either way. But the manga showed even after a close, Goku was winning.

Unless you think Freeza was winning, I don't know what is really wrong with 150:120?

Because it cannot be 150:150, because that means the fight is completely even. Which is not the case. I'm willing to settle 150:130


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Gracek90
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Father Brofist
Dec 11 2014, 12:16 AM
If you want to say Goku's stamina wasn't being effected as much that's one thing. It's really hard to have your energy taken down a lot when your only being hit 4-5 (I'm not counting Freeza's intial assault here as that obviously didn't mean much to either of them) times compared to guy who got hit about 7-8 times. Add in the fact that Goku apparently got almost rejuvenated when he transformed compared to Freeza who got nearly killed by the Genki-Dama, then beaten around by SSJ Goku initially and is now using an incredibly strained 100% form.

I don't think anyone would disagree that Goku's stamina greatly surpasses Freeza at this point and that even if Freeza's attacks can hurt Goku, in the end, Freeza just doesn't have the capability to keep the fight up. It's a partial difference in strength but also a huge difference in stamina and time. Freeza lacks the stamina and time on his side.

But, I don't see how you can tell me that Freeza's attacks are being ineffective though. I don't see how Goku having blood draw, grinding his teeth, popping his veins, yelling "Die Freeza" and showing visible discomfort is a sign of Freeza's attacks being ineffective. I think its pretty clear that Freeza is at a level that Goku can't go easy on him. There's nothing saying that Goku is holding back, or pulling his punches, or anything like that.

The entire fight essentially boiled down to the two hitting each other as hard as they could and in the end, Freeza went down quicker. Something that we know is the whole stamina issue. But I don't see anyone can look at this fight, and think that Goku was dominating the fight.
As I said before it depends on the way in which you look at it and the overall knowledge. I just look in such fights in different manner because I spend literally a lot of time in places in which getting into a fight was only a matter of time (nothing to be proud of actually). Trust me, if you land three hits and your enemy is not only still standing but his perfomance is not affected at all then you are doomed. These hits don't matter because they neither damaged him nor make any bigger effects. In comparison, this enemy makes one kidney punch which force you to literally cough your internal organs. In the whole fight we saw Frieza has bigger problems to withstand hits, than Goku. That is why I am perfectly fine with the gap.
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lazerbem
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That's real life logic, this is DBZ logic, Goku took far more than three hits from Cell, yet aside from panting and looking pissed, it didn't really affect him. That's the same reaction Freeza had at the beginning.

I guess Goku is 25% weaker than Cell now? Another example, Dabra slaps Gohan around quite a bit initially, far more than Gohan slaps him around. I guess Gohan is s*** to Dabra now?

As for Freeza vomiting, his power was dropping by that point and he recovered almost instantly from it.
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+ miguelnuva
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Goku stopped fighting hard once Frieza's stamina started dropping in the Anime is it the same in the manga?
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

There's not really a section in the manga for such a thing. It's pretty much once Freeza is shown to be gasping and sweating and stuff, Goku just says "k, done." and the fight ends. Until then, they're both looking pretty stressed at the time. It's just at the end, Goku can collect himself and Freeza is the one left panting.

I brought this before in another Goku vs Freeza topic, but their fighting style was also noticeably different. Freeza used a lot of hard hitting attacks but little combonations. Goku on the other hand did what appear to be less hard hitting attacks but more combinations. As if Freeza tried to rack up damage with hard hitting single moves and Goku tried to rack up damage with consecutive hits. One difference though is that along with the combos, Goku also added in hard hitting hits.

For example, instead of just punching Freeza in the face as hard as he could, Goku head butts him, snaps his wrist and then swings him away. It gives a sense that Goku's not hitting Freeza as hard, but at the same time he's slowly building up damage with each hit. But of course there's some brutal hits from Goku, that major gut punch near the end and that combo he did which apparently ended the fight.

It seems obvious that, Freeza has the power to hurt Goku and cause him visible pain. This isn't a fight that Goku can go easy on. Whether or not he has to use his full effort, I think its clear he has to use his full power. The KHH is a perfect example of this I think. It shows that if Goku's not on his A-game, Freeza's going to swoop in and pound his a***. But as long as he keeps his head on his shoulders, his overall advantage in power combined with his superior fighting skills and lack of stamina issues will ultimately give him the win.

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