Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Rotation Advertisements



We hope you enjoy your visit to this forum.


If you are reading this then it means you are currently browsing the forum as a guest, we don’t limit any of the content posted from guests however if you join, you will have the ability to join the discussions! We are always happy to see new faces at this forum and we would like to hear your opinion, so why not register now? It doesn’t take long and you can get posting right away.


Click here to Register!

If you are having difficulties validating your account please email us at admin@dbzf.co.uk


If you're already a member please log in to your account:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 7
  • 9
SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza : How Close Are They?
Topic Started: Dec 9 2014, 04:09 AM (5,851 Views)
Mihawk
Member Avatar


Vertical
Dec 10 2014, 12:26 AM
I do not feel comfortable with a discussion that seems to be mirroring "Religion vs Science" (especially that last post by K-boom)... and it's almost my lunch break... so I'm going to drop out of the conversation for now.


Pretty much this. Some people are more likely to strictly interpret the world they see around them through a religious texts, others prefer to look at the trends and observations to try to come to a testable conclusions. Although it's not as flat out as that in the case, I do like to think of both interpretations as fairly valid in their own ways (the guidebooks are the word of God and/or disciples, and err logic™).

Posted Image

Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DEY DID DIS 2 ME
Member Avatar
MY FACE!

Also, some people tend to argue black/white, while others tend to be gray, and others still stay clear.
Posted Image~( w h a t c h u   g o n n a   d o , b r o t h e r ? ! )
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mihawk
Member Avatar


Unfortunately humans have a natural tendency to go try to fit everything under a binary .

Posted Image

Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
+ Pyrus
Member Avatar


Humans are also the stupidest, most worthless beings on this planet.
AT
 
My number-one goal in coming up with it was because, if an opponent’s strength could be seen as a number, it would be very easy for the readers to understand when I put it in the comic. However, I could foresee that it’d be an inconvenience for me down the line, because if you knew a concrete number, then you could tell who would win or lose, so with regards to Goku & co., I decided that [their power] would change due to “Ki” and couldn’t be adequately measured.

In addition, it’s a very convenient item to create peril, since with enemies equipped with them, their location could become known, and they could be reported.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/saikyo-jump-tell-us-toriyama-sensei-qa/
Spoiler: click to toggle
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
EMIYA
Member Avatar
"I am the bone of my sword."

Pyrus
Dec 10 2014, 02:29 AM
Humans are also the stupidest, most worthless beings on this planet.
AT
 
My number-one goal in coming up with it was because, if an opponent’s strength could be seen as a number, it would be very easy for the readers to understand when I put it in the comic. However, I could foresee that it’d be an inconvenience for me down the line, because if you knew a concrete number, then you could tell who would win or lose, so with regards to Goku & co., I decided that [their power] would change due to “Ki” and couldn’t be adequately measured.

In addition, it’s a very convenient item to create peril, since with enemies equipped with them, their location could become known, and they could be reported.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/saikyo-jump-tell-us-toriyama-sensei-qa/
I think this illustrates perfectly what's going on. Even AT knew the issue of his whole numbers business. He outright admits that yes, if you have concrete numbers it does become easy to tell who will win or lose. It also tells me from this quote, at least by this point that he was paying attention to what he was doing which I thought so as well. He realized that if he kept this up, it would become far too easy to tell how fights would go.

But this comment here really tells me that yes, even AT knew there was something going on with gaps. As he said himself "It would be very easy for readers to understand where I put it in the comic...and who win or lose" And it kind of does. So I think its obvious that he realized this and in the end got rid of it which definitely puts more emphasis of enjoyability and curiosity on how things will turn out.


Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
+ Kaboom
Member Avatar


"Higher number" means "winner, save for rare circumstances," sure. I said that much too.

But Toriyama says nothing in that quote about "gaps," or using proportions to determine exactly how one-sided a fight would be.
Edited by Kaboom, Dec 10 2014, 03:06 AM.
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
EMIYA
Member Avatar
"I am the bone of my sword."

No Kaboom that's just shown constantly in the manga, but obviously the feats, statements, indications, etc. in the manga are unimportant to you.
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
+ Kaboom
Member Avatar


Is a condescending response like that really necessary?
Edited by Kaboom, Dec 10 2014, 03:23 AM.
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
EMIYA
Member Avatar
"I am the bone of my sword."

You know what Kaboom, I'm sorry. It was wrong of me to act like that.

Let me ask you this, do you admit at the very least there is supporting evidence in the manga that there may be a gap point. That things like Goku vs Vegeta, Vegeta vs Cui, KK Goku vs Vegeta (Our 1.10x gap here) and things like that, does at least have some indication there may be a point on gaps. It doesn't mean it's 100% true, but I'm going to ask if you do at least admit there's some evidence to support that case.

Let me just ask that first.
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
+ Kaboom
Member Avatar


Yes, of course there's supporting evidence. It shows that, other things being equal, a fight can or even usually will turn out a certain way at certain differences in power. There's an obvious trend there. I never denied that.

But I likewise hold to the fact that a trend does not automatically constitute a rule, and such a non-rule can not be used to disprove or predict anything. Not all fighters and fights are equal. Like I said above, power gaps could only strictly determine the balance of a fight when all other aspects are equal, and they rarely are.



EDIT: For example, Vegeta's easy victories over Kwi, Dodoria, and Zarbon can be attributed to not just his power advantage, but also his sharpened skills compared to their complacency, along with his new tricks. Just the ability to sense ki without a scouter would give anyone a huge tactical and reaction advantage. Not to mention the mind games he played with them... Dodoria was actually fleeing in terror when Vegeta finished him off.

Likewise, there's a host of other elements that could help Freeza despite a comparatively large power difference between him and Goku. His sheer determination that borders on insane denial. Goku being more physically battered than him. Perhaps a natural boon in durability and pain resistance, given how relatively well he survives things like a Spirit Bomb to the face or being bisected.

Which is the larger point I'm always trying to make in threads like these. Even if PL numbers, a.k.a. comparative raw strength, is the main factor in a fight, it's never the only factor. Boiling Goku and Freeza's entire dramatic fight down to, "well, Freeza shouldn't be able to fight back at all if he's only X% as strong as Goku" is simultaneously both over- and under-simplifying it, and does both characters a big disservice.
Edited by Kaboom, Dec 10 2014, 04:32 AM.
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
EMIYA
Member Avatar
"I am the bone of my sword."

I don't think there's any problem in adding in aspects of things like skills, techniques, body aspects, etc. I use those all the time in the versus sections. I think its clear that, even if its only by a little, someone like Goku would do better against a person who is 1.2x stronger than him than say, Raditz who has far less skills and abilities.

But let me ask another thing and this will be what I think tells me exactly what you believe in.

1.) Do you believe that there's more evidence that supports the fact that there isn't specific gap thing. That even without the usage of techniques or skills, gaps are random and what happens in one fight doesn't mean a similar outcome (and I'm using the word similar and not the same) will occur.

2.) You believe that both sides, gaps and non-gaps have either sufficient or insufficient information to to their sides and there's not enough information to point out to one or the other?

3.) You're uncertain and you just can't point out any specific answer to what is given to you?

4.) Or do you pick some other point I didn't mention.
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
FutureProtagonist
Member Avatar
Quwrof Wrlccywrlir

Skill doesn't matter a great deal, this much seems pretty clear. I would ask you to recall the fight between Goku and Nappa. Nappa seems to be relatively unskilled and is a terrible fighter, yet Goku still felt that his power alone, despite being less than Goku, was enough to make the fight last a long time.

For an opposite example, you could look at Recoom vs Vegeta; Recoom seems to be a pretty crappy fighter (the same could be said of the whole Ginyu squad), yet his power alone, despite the gap not being enormous, was more than enough to completely humiliate Vegeta.

Here's one more caveat: there are quite a few statements that support the idea that certain gaps make victory easy. Ginyu was pretty confident that he could handle a battle power of 85,000 even though he was only 120,000. Jheese wasn't even willing to entertain the idea that a fighter with battle power 60,000 could have been defeated by both him and Butta fighting together. We can definitely say that these two are at least above 30,000.

Majin Boo was definitely certain that he couldn't beat Gohan, despite the gap between them being less than 2 times and his advantage of infinite stamina and regeneration.
I love building PCs. If you have any questions about it feel free to ask. I can help you with almost any kind of PC you'd want to build.


Join DBZeta
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
+ Kaboom
Member Avatar


Father Brofist
Dec 10 2014, 04:40 AM
But let me ask another thing and this will be what I think tells me exactly what you believe in...
I guess option #2 is the closest to what I try to convey. I believe it's less about "evidence" or "information," and more just about common sense and story logic.

No two fighters are exactly the same, and therefore no two fights are the same. Heck, scouters round numbers (or at least the people reading off them do), so rarely if ever are two power levels even the same. Even an immediate rematch between the same two characters won't unfold the exact same way as before, because their knowledge and experience regarding each other has now changed.

I think these types of problems with power levels arise because people unduly treat them as a science, instead of just the narrative device they were intended to be.
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Fearless Saiyajin
Member Avatar
Legendary of Super Saiyan

Kaboom always agree what the guidebooks said.
DragonballZeta
Posted Image
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
+ Pyrus
Member Avatar


SaiyanXjin5
Dec 10 2014, 08:17 AM
Kaboom always agree what the guidebooks said.
I wouldn't go that far. Nobody follows the guidebooks 100% of the time, even those like Kaboom.

People find ways to interpret certain things as they see fit.
Spoiler: click to toggle
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
DealsFor.me - The best sales, coupons, and discounts for you
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Dragon Ball/Z Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 7
  • 9

Theme Designed by McKee91