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SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza : How Close Are They?
Topic Started: Dec 9 2014, 04:09 AM (5,852 Views)
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G Michael Jackson
Dec 9 2014, 11:46 PM
Vertical
Dec 9 2014, 11:42 PM
G Michael Jackson
Dec 9 2014, 11:38 PM
So then, a good question would be, "what are the factors that allow Freeza (120) to fight with Son (150)".

My response to that question was, merely, that Freeza had forced himself to be a max (120) constantly while Son's fighting power is nearer to 120 and his max is 150. of course, that not proven fact, but I'll find things to support the possibility.

insert trollish pic
Would that not be "begging the question" or something similar?

If any implications are made that lead you to that conclusion, then great... but the conclusion shouldn't be the starting point.
what? I'm not sure what you are implying, but I probably don't mean what it is that you are implying :D :lol: :| :errm: :unsure: :huh:
Your post seems to be "trying to find a way to justify 150/120" but what I'm saying is... you should be able to look at the fight... and arrive at the conclusion of 150/120 somehow without ever being told that was an answer.

EDIT: As you have the exact same information available to you that the people who wrote the 150/120 had. So, you should be able to reach that exact same conclusion.
Edited by Vertical, Dec 9 2014, 11:51 PM.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

While were on the subject of Goku and Vegeta and their beam duel. I think we can say that, Goku's not getting the same amplification from his KHH with Kaioken as he would without it. I think Goku's battle with Freeza proved that point. Is he getting any amplification, I don't know. But again I think its safe to say he isn't getting that full 2.3x or whatever amp he might have.

Otherwise Goku would've annihilated Freeza.

Since Vegeta is currently amping his ki, this might have helped him to survive the Kamehameha better. You know Vegeta's normal level is about 18,000. But now that he's amping his ki up a bit for the Galic Gun, that might have helped him to survive Goku's own KHH a bit better. In short, Vegeta's body was being amped up by that ki of his.

Of course that's completely subjective and conjecture on my part.
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Vertical
Dec 9 2014, 11:32 PM
Luckily for us, we're not trying to predict anything.

The outcomes have already been decided... how they came about has been shown... now people are attempting to determine how much of a factor power was.

EDIT: And in this case, many are coming to the conclusion that how the fight played out does not justify such a huge power difference.
Then maybe "predict" isn't quite the right word in this case.

But the overall point being that if these fights are to be treated like math equations, then non-power elements are an unkown factor that can't be accurately represented. The only raw data we have and can put in numbers is the strength, and that's not enough to calculate the course of a fight, even retroactively. The data is incomplete.

Which is why numbers alone cannot be used to firmly determine anything about how Goku and Freeza's fights unfolded. There's no way to prove, "those numbers don't allow that fight to have happened that way."

Yes, there's an observable trend with the power levels seen in some past fights. I'm not denying that. But taking that trend and deciding it constitutes a rule which all else must follow is taking things too far.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Father Brofist
Dec 9 2014, 07:45 PM
1.KK3 Goku vs Vegeta

2.Vegeta vs Cui

Raditz vs Goku/Piccolo

Freeza vs Nail

2nd Form Freeza vs Vegeta

Ginyu vs KK Goku

You know what all of these fights have in common? They're all around 1.3x or higher and they all end with one having an overwhelming advantage over the other side. Different fights, and different opponents means jack s*** when the same out comes is happenings every time. No further answer necessary? Don't make me laugh, you can't even give one.
1. You've got me on that one.
2. Cui was running away. His lack of confidence hampered his ki, specifically his shouki and yuuki, making him an easy target for Vegeta
3. The gap was much bigger than 1.3x, so all we can conclude is that Raditz is strong enough to decimate both of them with ease
4. Again, the gap was much bigger than 1.33x
5. Vegeta crapped himself and fell victim to his ki being hampered, just like Cui.
6. Eh, I dunno.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Father Brofist
Dec 9 2014, 11:54 PM
While were on the subject of Goku and Vegeta and their beam duel. I think we can say that, Goku's not getting the same amplification from his KHH with Kaioken as he would without it. I think Goku's battle with Freeza proved that point. Is he getting any amplification, I don't know. But again I think its safe to say he isn't getting that full 2.3x or whatever amp he might have.

Otherwise Goku would've annihilated Freeza.

Since Vegeta is currently amping his ki, this might have helped him to survive the Kamehameha better. You know Vegeta's normal level is about 18,000. But now that he's amping his ki up a bit for the Galic Gun, that might have helped him to survive Goku's own KHH a bit better. In short, Vegeta's body was being amped up by that ki of his.

Of course that's completely subjective and conjecture on my part.
You could argue that once he pushed Vegeta's beam back with a burst of KKx4, the beam's power returned to being just KKx3. That, along with the fact that Vegeta's beam opposing it 'till the very second it hit him, could show that his survivability isn't absolutely ridiculous.

Woops, double post. My bad.
Edited by Yu Narukami, Dec 9 2014, 11:59 PM.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

I know many of the ones listed are above 1.3x. I was pretty much making the point that any of the fights we saw that were 1.3x or greater were heavily in favor of another opponent. In short there wasn't a fight that we know had that gap or larger that was equal or in favor of the weaker opponent without something going on. But I agree with you to a degree on the whole issues of Shouki and Yuuki. I think you right, Cui probably wasn't at his best.

But the reason I still do that is his reactions even before. Both from him and Dodoria and Zarbon. I mean the two who are stronger than Cui freak out over Vegeta's being stronger than them so I think its safe to say that regardless of what Cui's confidence would be, the outcome would be the same. It's obvious to Cui that, this 24,000 isn't something to laugh about and Dodoria I believe admits that since Vegeta killed Kiwi "easily" he really must've been 24,000.

I think it shows that to them, 24,000 compared to 18,000 really is enough to easily kill another opponent.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Father Brofist
Dec 10 2014, 12:06 AM
I know many of the ones listed are above 1.3x. I was pretty much making the point that any of the fights we saw that were 1.3x or greater were heavily in favor of another opponent. In short there wasn't a fight that we know had that gap or larger that was equal or in favor of the weaker opponent without something going on. But I agree with you to a degree on the whole issues of Shouki and Yuuki. I think you right, Cui probably wasn't at his best.

But the reason I still do that is his reactions even before. Both from him and Dodoria and Zarbon. I mean the two who are stronger than Cui freak out over Vegeta's being stronger than them so I think its safe to say that regardless of what Cui's confidence would be, the outcome would be the same. It's obvious to Cui that, this 24,000 isn't something to laugh about and Dodoria I believe admits that since Vegeta killed Kiwi "easily" he really must've been 24,000.

I think it shows that to them, 24,000 compared to 18,000 really is enough to easily kill another opponent.
Indeed. I think Vegeta still could've easily done what he did to Cui under normal circumstances, but Cui's little tantrum and show of cowardice just made it painfully easy for him.
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Father Brofist
Dec 9 2014, 11:54 PM
While were on the subject of Goku and Vegeta and their beam duel. I think we can say that, Goku's not getting the same amplification from his KHH with Kaioken as he would without it. I think Goku's battle with Freeza proved that point. Is he getting any amplification, I don't know. But again I think its safe to say he isn't getting that full 2.3x or whatever amp he might have.

Otherwise Goku would've annihilated Freeza.
Be wary of your footsteps along this path... because as far as I can remember, these conclusions can only be reached by using supplementary information (guidebooks).



Kaboom
Dec 9 2014, 11:54 PM
Vertical
Dec 9 2014, 11:32 PM
Luckily for us, we're not trying to predict anything.

The outcomes have already been decided... how they came about has been shown... now people are attempting to determine how much of a factor power was.

EDIT: And in this case, many are coming to the conclusion that how the fight played out does not justify such a huge power difference.
Then maybe "predict" isn't quite the right word in this case.

But the overall point being that if these fights are to be treated like math equations, then non-power elements are an unkown factor that can't be accurately represented. The only raw data we have and can put in numbers is the strength, and that's not enough to calculate the course of a fight, even retroactively. The data is incomplete.

Which is why numbers alone cannot be used to firmly determine anything about how Goku and Freeza's fights unfolded. There's no way to prove, "those numbers don't allow that fight to have happened that way."

Yes, there's an observable trend with the power levels seen in some past fights. I'm not denying that. But taking that trend and deciding it constitutes a rule which all else must follow is taking things too far.
I agree on the point of considering any displayed trends to be outright rules... but the patterns are quite clearly there and adhering to them (in a general sense) shouldn't be too difficult. But when the guidebook numbers seem like such an outlier based upon those patterns, then justification is required as to why.

From what I remember, no implications are made that justify such a power difference. I could understand if someone came to the conclusion that Goku wasn't trying his utmost to defeat Freeza. I could understand if someone came to the conclusion that Freeza had higher durability than the typical foe. I could understand people coming to such conclusions... but that is not that same as agreeing with them.

Without implications from the manga or explanations from the people reaching these conclusions... if I cannot reach the same conclusion then I cannot agree to it.


conclusion conclusion conclusion conclusion conclusion conclusion conclusion conclusion conclusion conclusion conclusion conclusion GAAH
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

This is the reason why I didn't include Dodoria on the list. We don't know what exactly Dodoria's level was only that he was weaker than Vegeta. He might have been around 21,000-22,000, significantly weaker mind you. But due to his lack of confidence and stuff, that gap increased and Dodoria may have ended up doing a lot worse than he could've done.
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lazerbem
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Nagito Komaeda
Dec 9 2014, 11:37 PM
Come on, guys. No mention of Shouki or Yuuki? I'm sorely disappointed.

Freeza isn't skilled enough to fight almost equally against an opponent who's 1.25x him and fighting seriously. Vegeta showed that in his fights...UNLESS YOU WANT TO *COUGHCOUGH* TALK ABOUT KI A LITTLE *COUGHCOUGH*

I don't get where the idea of Freeza being unskilled came from. Goku tells him to polish his skills, not that they weren't there to begin with.

The best example of Freeza's skill is his battle against Piccolo, where he actually gains the edge in melee but fails in the ki blast department. No skill issues there.
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Sometimes I wonder if such "outlier" numbers are made that way intentionally. As if someone, either Toriyama or an editor at Shueisha or something, is actually trying to send a message of, "power levels and the relationships behind them aren't an exact science. Don't fuss too much about them."

Actually, intentional or not, I do think that message is there, and it's a good one worth heeding.

Does the manga say or show that A is stronger than B? Do the official numbers for their fight say that too? Then it all checks out. Anything more detailed than that is subjective.

Debating and trying to calculate things like how close one has to be to put up a fight is nitpicky and pointless. At least that much is still harmless, but when it gets overblown to the point of calling other people or things wrong for not going along with it is when it crosses a line.
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MY FACE!

Freeza fit his body so that he could be at max consistently
And Z-Fighters that were at a fighting power have raised their power up more to reach a higher power.
therefore, it is possible (but not proven fact) that Son's power could have toggled within 120 and 150 throughout the duration of the battle

But I do understand the point made.

100% Freeza (Freeza forced himself to be a max)
Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P2.4
Context: as Freeza powers up
Goku: "His ki is swelling up and becoming full...So he's finally bringing out this '100% power' thing of his, huh?..."

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P8.2-5
Context: after Goku and full-power Freeza have fought for a while
Goku: "I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you've passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping...I'm starting to think that there's no point in fighting any more than this..."

Was Son use his 100% power, or is he referring to Freeza forcing himself to maintain max power?

Person who uses his fighting power says that he will power up to max
Chapter: 129, P6.4, P7.1-4, P8.1
Goku: "You really are strong. I'm flabbergasted."
Tenshinhan: "That's my line. You're an amazingly tough bastard..."
Goku: "Knowing you, you won't die even if I put out my full power, so it looks like I can go all out!"
Tenshinhan: "Don't make me laugh. You've already been going all out."
Goku: "Yeah, at my match-use power. [ ] But it looks like you're trying to kill me, so I'll go at it with my battle-use power too!"
Tenshinhan: "Battle-use...? So then, now you'll start utilizing your true ability? Heh! That's the first time I've heard such a worthless bluff!"
Note: "I'll go at it with my battle-use power too" in the sense that Tenshinhan is also using his battle-use power (not that Tenshinhan thinks in those terms) since he's trying to kill Goku. It doesn't mean Goku is going to somehow use both his match and battle-use power simultaneously.

http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/gain_1.php?did=0-0-14&fpp=4&fid=77&smf=1

http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/gain_1.php?did=0-0-14&fpp=2&fid=102&smf=1

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: "Don't hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might...!"
Goku: "Ye...yeah...I've been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but...I haven't gotten the chance."
Vegeta: "Eh?"
Goku: "If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute."
Vegeta: "One minute?!"
Goku: "Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. .....Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this...!"
Vegeta: "...S ...So you weren't thinking of me..."
Posted Image~( w h a t c h u   g o n n a   d o , b r o t h e r ? ! )
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* Yu Narukami
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lazerbem
Dec 10 2014, 12:14 AM
Nagito Komaeda
Dec 9 2014, 11:37 PM
Come on, guys. No mention of Shouki or Yuuki? I'm sorely disappointed.

Freeza isn't skilled enough to fight almost equally against an opponent who's 1.25x him and fighting seriously. Vegeta showed that in his fights...UNLESS YOU WANT TO *COUGHCOUGH* TALK ABOUT KI A LITTLE *COUGHCOUGH*

I don't get where the idea of Freeza being unskilled came from. Goku tells him to polish his skills, not that they weren't there to begin with.

The best example of Freeza's skill is his battle against Piccolo, where he actually gains the edge in melee but fails in the ki blast department. No skill issues there.
Oh, I'm not denying that he's very skilled, just that those skills wouldn't help him surmount a gap as big as the one pitted to us by the Daizenshuu.
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I do not feel comfortable with a discussion that seems to be mirroring "Religion vs Science" (especially that last post by K-boom)... and it's almost my lunch break... so I'm going to drop out of the conversation for now.
Edited by Vertical, Dec 10 2014, 12:27 AM.
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Nagito Komaeda
Dec 10 2014, 12:24 AM
lazerbem
Dec 10 2014, 12:14 AM
Nagito Komaeda
Dec 9 2014, 11:37 PM
Come on, guys. No mention of Shouki or Yuuki? I'm sorely disappointed.

Freeza isn't skilled enough to fight almost equally against an opponent who's 1.25x him and fighting seriously. Vegeta showed that in his fights...UNLESS YOU WANT TO *COUGHCOUGH* TALK ABOUT KI A LITTLE *COUGHCOUGH*

I don't get where the idea of Freeza being unskilled came from. Goku tells him to polish his skills, not that they weren't there to begin with.

The best example of Freeza's skill is his battle against Piccolo, where he actually gains the edge in melee but fails in the ki blast department. No skill issues there.
Oh, I'm not denying that he's very skilled, just that those skills wouldn't help him surmount a gap as big as the one pitted to us by the Daizenshuu.
Oh, obviously, for that kind of gap, I think a foe akin to Dodoria is necessary. Perhaps not even, as Recoome was beating the life out of Vegeta and tanking his attacks, despite showing horrifically inefficient attacks and skills
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