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SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza : How Close Are They?
Topic Started: Dec 9 2014, 04:09 AM (5,853 Views)
lazerbem
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Goku wasn't stalling when he blasts a Kamehameha at Freeza while telling him to die.

And though Goku bounces back from the hits, so does Freeza. Both draw blood from each other but it's not until the end of the fight that Goku starts dominating, before hand, it's more like

Freeza punches Goku
Goku throws him
Freeza charges him

Etc.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Freeza only hit Goku like...4-5 times I think. compared to Goku's 8 I think. I wouldn't say Goku wasn't being hurt but its not like Freeza was landing the majority of the blows anyways. Add in Goku's overall superiority and Freeza's lack of stamina and I see no reason why Goku probably wouldn't look a bit livelier at the end. I mean let me ask this, do you think Goku would've been as fine and collected if Freeza wasn't suffering under his stamina loss or do you think Freeza would still have landed hte same number of hits?

I think the point is clear. The outcome of the fight, Goku's victory, doesn't change. But I think few would disagree that if Freeza wasn't being strained so much, he'd last longer and land more hits.
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Kaboom
Dec 9 2014, 09:13 PM
There's nothing in the manga preventing the numbers listed by the Daizenshuu guidebooks for 100%-power Freeza (120 million) and Super Saiyan Goku (150 million) from being at least plausible, if not factual. The courses of past fights between characters at certain power differences can not be used to determine the outcome of a future fight with a similar difference with any factual certainty. There are no firm established rules, in the Dragon Ball manga or any supplementary source, for determining how a fight will unfold based solely on the percentages and "gaps" of the powers at play. Any such referenced "rules" are only the personal fabrication of fans, based on what is at best a trend, and are of no value beyond other original works and theories of said fans. Given the lack of such hard rules, the aforementioned official numbers for Freeza and Goku are no more or less correct or valid from any scientific or logical standpoint than any variant numbers for them created by fans.
This nice part about this, especially the last sentence, is the acceptance that neither fan nor guidebook is "right" or "wrong". But when it comes to reaching a "satisfactory answer"...

There's the point that the guidebooks themselves were written, essentially, by paid (/time-restrained) fans (not AT nor his immediate staff). Fans which, sadly, cannot defend their theories.

We generally have explanations on how people come to their conclusions regarding numbers that aren't 150/120... but we do not have the opposite. And when they seem to be such an outlier given previous examples, then it's quite obvious as to why people continue to question them.



@Prince: The KHH vs Vegeta is a poor example because you cannot prove the power of the KHH hitting him. You cannot dismiss that it may be diminished due to the GHo~ hitting it, and Goku's burst in strength only lasting "a heartbeat". You cannot prove how KK works with amped attacks. etc etc


@Topic: Perhaps a little closer than [Calm] Nappa vs Goku? :gokudance:
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myst1c
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クリストファー真鍮

Goku SSJ: 150,000,000
Frieza: 120,000,000

Confirmed numbers.
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myst1c
Dec 9 2014, 10:49 PM
Goku SSJ: 150,000,000
Frieza: 120,000,000

Confirmed numbers.
"Official" and "Confirmed" are two different words with two different meanings (especially in this case).
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lazerbem
Dec 9 2014, 10:11 PM
Goku wasn't stalling when he blasts a Kamehameha at Freeza while telling him to die.

And though Goku bounces back from the hits, so does Freeza. Both draw blood from each other but it's not until the end of the fight that Goku starts dominating, before hand, it's more like

Freeza punches Goku
Goku throws him
Freeza charges him

Etc.
Right, but you're forgetting that Goku doesn't want Freeza to think he's stalling. Yeah, Freeza drew blood, but he never had him on the ground. He couldn't even do any significant damage with his Nova Strike.
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@Prince: The KHH vs Vegeta is a poor example because you cannot prove the power of the KHH hitting him. You cannot dismiss that it may be diminished due to the GHo~ hitting it, and Goku's burst in strength only lasting "a heartbeat". You cannot prove how KK works with amped attacks. etc etc

I cannot prove the power of the KHH was hitting him? What even? The Kamehameha hit him, the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence for the notion that the Kamehameha somehow lost some of it's power immediately after it pushed Vegeta's Gyarikku Ho back. I mean, that didn't happen when Gohan's Kamehameha hit Cell so why should I even humor this notion?
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Dec 9 2014, 11:02 PM.
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Vertical
Dec 9 2014, 10:48 PM
This nice part about this, especially the last sentence, is the acceptance that neither fan nor guidebook is "right" or "wrong."
Not right or wrong "from any scientific or logical standpoint."

Because power level numbers aren't a science. They're nothing more than a numerical representation of raw power, which is only one part of a battle. You can't predict a fight on just a single factor like that. It's like tossing an unknown variable into a math equation.
Edited by Kaboom, Dec 9 2014, 11:10 PM.
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DEY DID DIS 2 ME
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Kaboom
Dec 9 2014, 11:10 PM
Vertical
Dec 9 2014, 10:48 PM
This nice part about this, especially the last sentence, is the acceptance that neither fan nor guidebook is "right" or "wrong."
Not right or wrong "from any scientific or logical standpoint."

Because power level numbers aren't a science. They're nothing more than a numerical representation of raw power, which is only one part of a battle. You can't predict a fight on just a single factor like that. It's like tossing an unknown variable into a math equation.
All of Freeza's men tried to predict their fights on a single factor. So you're like DBZF's Vegeta, telling these Nappa's that their scouters are useless.

Although, power is a significant factor. I think that this is what some people are stating. Some of them, however, are either merely arguing for the sake of it, or because of some drive to prove someone wrong.

Happy posting.
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Kaboom
Dec 9 2014, 11:10 PM
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Dec 9 2014, 10:48 PM
This nice part about this, especially the last sentence, is the acceptance that neither fan nor guidebook is "right" or "wrong."
Not right or wrong "from any scientific or logical standpoint."
What other standpoint would be worth mentioning? Moral?

Kaboom
Dec 9 2014, 11:10 PM
Because power level numbers aren't a science. They're nothing more than a numerical representation of raw power, which is only one part of a battle. You can't predict a fight on just a single factor like that. It's like tossing an unknown variable into a math equation.
I don't think anyone is trying to argue that power level is the one and only determining factor in battle... that would just be silly. But it cannot be denied that it does hold a huge influence on the outcome.
Edited by Vertical, Dec 9 2014, 11:20 PM.
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Oh yes, I'd also even say power is the main factor, and it takes something pretty drastic to prevent the stronger person from winning. Like Goku and Piccolo's extreme amplification and sacrifice tactics against Raditz, or Cell's speed advantage against SS Grade 3 Trunks.

But even if the stronger person wins 99.999% of the time, there's no reliable way to predict or determine how easy or difficult that victory will be just by comparing strengths. Other factors will play a bigger part in determining that, and there's no way to mathematically figure those out by comparing strength numbers. Scouters and guidebooks don't give us "skill level" or "durability level" or "determination level" numbers to mix in with the "power level" numbers.
Edited by Kaboom, Dec 9 2014, 11:29 PM.
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Kaboom
Dec 9 2014, 11:25 PM
Oh yes, I'd also even say power is the main factor, and it takes something pretty drastic to prevent the stronger person from winning. Like Goku and Piccolo's extreme amplification and sacrifice tactics against Raditz, or Cell's speed advantage against SS Grade 3 Trunks.

But even if the stronger person wins 99.999% of the time, there's no reliable way to predict or determine how easy or difficult that victory will be just by comparing strengths. Other factors will play a bigger part in determining that, and there's no way to mathematically figure those out by comparing strength numbers. Scouters and guidebooks don't give us "skill level" or "durability level" or "determination level" numbers to mix in with the "power level" numbers.
Luckily for us, we're not trying to predict anything.

The outcomes have already been decided... how they came about has been shown... now people are attempting to determine how much of a factor power was.

EDIT: And in this case, many are coming to the conclusion that how the fight played out does not justify such a huge power difference.
Edited by Vertical, Dec 9 2014, 11:33 PM.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Come on, guys. No mention of Shouki or Yuuki? I'm sorely disappointed.

Freeza isn't skilled enough to fight almost equally against an opponent who's 1.25x him and fighting seriously. Vegeta showed that in his fights...UNLESS YOU WANT TO *COUGHCOUGH* TALK ABOUT KI A LITTLE *COUGHCOUGH*

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DEY DID DIS 2 ME
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So then, a good question would be, "what are the factors that allow Freeza (120) to fight with Son (150)".

My response to that question was, merely, that Freeza had forced himself to be a max (120) constantly while Son's fighting power is nearer to 120 and his max is 150. of course, that not proven fact, but I'll find things to support the possibility.

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Edited by DEY DID DIS 2 ME, Dec 9 2014, 11:40 PM.
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G Michael Jackson
Dec 9 2014, 11:38 PM
So then, a good question would be, "what are the factors that allow Freeza (120) to fight with Son (150)".

My response to that question was, merely, that Freeza had forced himself to be a max (120) constantly while Son's fighting power is nearer to 120 and his max is 150. of course, that not proven fact, but I'll find things to support the possibility.

insert trollish pic
Would that not be "begging the question" or something similar?

If any implications are made that lead you to that conclusion, then great... but the conclusion shouldn't be the starting point.
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Dec 9 2014, 11:42 PM
G Michael Jackson
Dec 9 2014, 11:38 PM
So then, a good question would be, "what are the factors that allow Freeza (120) to fight with Son (150)".

My response to that question was, merely, that Freeza had forced himself to be a max (120) constantly while Son's fighting power is nearer to 120 and his max is 150. of course, that not proven fact, but I'll find things to support the possibility.

insert trollish pic
Would that not be "begging the question" or something similar?

If any implications are made that lead you to that conclusion, then great... but the conclusion shouldn't be the starting point.
what? I'm not sure what you are implying, but I probably don't mean what it is that you are implying :D :lol: :| :errm: :unsure: :huh:
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