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SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza : How Close Are They?
Topic Started: Dec 9 2014, 04:09 AM (5,854 Views)
+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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魔王子

Father Brofist
Dec 9 2014, 08:53 PM
Survivability and actually landing hits on an opponent and hurting them is two different things.

@ Kaboom. That's fine then, because its clear to me that you can't accept anything without it being stated right to your face and you'd rather take the guidebooks over what's shown in the manga.
What are you even trying to convey? If you get hurt and live, you survived.... Goku landed plenty of hard hits on Vegeta, and no hole was put in him, yet Vegeta, with the same advantage in strength over Kiwi, put a hole in Kiwi. You're wasting your time disputing the numbers the Daizenshuu has presented us. I only need to cite Vegeta surviving an attack almost twice as strong as he was. Also, science may be based on observing trends, but things only become fact if the results of those observations are always consistent, which they aren't as Vegeta proves.
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Dec 9 2014, 09:01 PM.
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lazerbem
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Oskuraz
Dec 9 2014, 08:55 PM
Actually, some of them don't make any sense at all or are outright wrong. Take Raditz. His power level is stated to be 1,500, yet he pisses his pants when he sees that Piccolo's power level is 1,330, or when Gohan is at 1,307. It doesn't make much sense. Sure you're worried when someone is 90% of your power, but the facial expression he makes is beyond worried. Nappa also outright stated in the manga that Raditz was equal to a Saibaman's 1,200 power level.

But whatever, I'm fine with you guys relying on Daiz power levels, as long as they don't contradict the manga.
There is reasoning for this, Raditz is a little b*** who freaks out Kamehamehas that are a ton weaker than him. The guy's like Starscream, the instant something nears his level, his fighting ability takes a dive, he gets terrified, and he starts begging for mercy from something he really shouldn't be begging to
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

....Vegeta never put a hole in Kiwi...not sure what you mean by that. Vegeta went for the kill on Kiwi, blew him right up. Goku landed some hits. I have no problem in thinking Vegeta's durability and stuff played a part and I'm not sure if you or the others are understanding what we're getting at.

When we say these gaps, which we call stomp gaps or whatever. We referred to the fact on how the fight will probably go. It'll be in an overwhelming advantage to the other side. one side is going to be landing the hits, dodging the blows. One side is usually completely unhurt and the other side is coughing up blood and on their knees or anything.

In short, no matter how the fight concludes, how the fight starts and goes about is pretty obvious. When Goku's surviving against 50% Freeza, does that mean gaps don't mean anything? No, even without plot it just means Goku has a good survivability. That doesn't stop the fact that's he completely inferior to Freeza in pretty much every way.

And that's the point were trying to make.
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Pyrus
Dec 9 2014, 08:58 PM
Oskuraz
Dec 9 2014, 08:55 PM
Actually, some of them don't make any sense at all or are outright wrong. Take Raditz. His power level is stated to be 1,500, yet he pisses his pants when he sees that Piccolo's power level is 1,330, or when Gohan is at 1,307. It doesn't make much sense. Sure you're worried when someone is 90% of your power, but the facial expression he makes is beyond worried. Nappa also outright stated in the manga that Raditz was equal to a Saibaman's 1,200 power level.

But whatever, I'm fine as long as it doesn't contradict the manga.
Equal to? Try the original translation.

I'm fine with 1,500 for Raditz. He should be above Gohan's 1,307 based on his wording about how it surpassed Goku.
Chapter: 215 (DBZ 21), P1.3
Context: after Tenshinhan beats a Saibaiman
Nappa: “"Im-impossible...!! The Saibaiman's battle power is 1,200...!! Going just by power, he rivals Raditz...!!"
Vegeta: “So [Tenshinhan]'s battle power surpasses that. A simple calculation.”

Rival:
/ˈrʌɪv(ə)l/
•"a person or thing that equals another in quality.
synonyms: equal"

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Freeza wasn't trying to kill Goku. He fires a giant cutter beam at him and misses on purpose just to troll Goku. He was never serious remotely.

It's kind of like how if a lizard fights me, it has no chance of winning. I can still flick it and cause it immense pain without killing it
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wolffanghameha
Dec 9 2014, 08:39 PM
...Science is based on observing trends and making conclusions based on those trends. Prove is a loaded word. "Show evidence" works better in most contexts.
It's all Dead Science anyways; people go to college to learn Legos Physics; most of the stuff being introduces as "modern" is actually quite ancient.

Father Brofist
Dec 9 2014, 08:41 PM
Yes I'd rather take a consistent trend that has never been contradicted in the manga then to have to change up the entire trend from the manga to fit with some random BS in a guidebook. Official sure, credible is questionable.

But no, you do this all the time Kaboom on this topic. Instead of trying to help provide evidence on your case, providing some statements, feats, indications, anything to support yourself. You just come up and claim "There's no rule so we should just take the Guidebook seriously." In short, you provide nothing to actually support your claim.

If I have 10 sources indicating that gaps of 1.3x or higher is significantly in favor for one side and then 1 source saying that it isn't. What do you think I'm going to do? I'm not going to try to make the manga fit the guidebooks, I need to make the guidebooks fit the manga.

Consistency, evidence, statements, feats. All of these heavily support, in a complete favor towards the idea of how gaps work. You think I or a lot of other people are going to try to change up the entire trend of the manga to work with one thing in the guidebooks? Here's another question, you think I'm going to change up the entire form of a vaccine just because one out of a thousand people don't get cured?
Play nice or die. Beware of extrapolation. finally, I believe you two are arguing 2 different things. KBOOM is arguing that power difference is not the only factor. You instigated and are arguing that power difference is a significant factor, and both are correct. And it does stand that the higher the power difference the higher probability of victory, without question. Although, I'm sure Syn's Favorite Big Baby Broly could manhandle Son Goku (At Nappa)... clearly.

Kaboom
Dec 9 2014, 08:45 PM
Please don't waste my time with semantics. There's no "science" to this stuff, and there's nothing to argue or debate about. I don't constantly point this out because I'm looking to prove a point or "defend the guidebooks." I point it out because it's the truth.

"<Official thing> is wrong because I say so because I decided that a trend is a rule" is baloney. That's all that's going on here. Ignore the guidebook numbers if you want. Use something else for your lists, or your versus matches, or your theories, or whatever you please. That's your prerogative.

But those tidy little 120/150 million numbers in the books still won't be "wrong." They never will be, no matter how much you want to see a consistent "rule" where there is none. No amount of fussing, listing things, or ragging on me will change that.
You didn't say hey. Although, I do think that it is an interesting that certain gaps keeps showing up.

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Father Brofist
Dec 9 2014, 08:53 PM
Kaboom. That's fine then, because its clear to me that you can't accept anything without it being stated right to your face and you'd rather take the guidebooks over what's shown in the manga.
I've built up a pretty sturdy resistance to the "slave to the guidebooks" taunt by now, I'm afraid.

Everything I'm about to say in the next paragraph is 100% true. I say them not as a "debater" trying to prove or support a point, but simply to list common sense facts for everyone's benefit.


There's nothing in the manga preventing the numbers listed by the Daizenshuu guidebooks for 100%-power Freeza (120 million) and Super Saiyan Goku (150 million) from being at least plausible, if not factual. The courses of past fights between characters at certain power differences can not be used to determine the outcome of a future fight with a similar difference with any factual certainty. There are no firm established rules, in the Dragon Ball manga or any supplementary source, for determining how a fight will unfold based solely on the percentages and "gaps" of the powers at play. Any such referenced "rules" are only the personal fabrication of fans, based on what is at best a trend, and are of no value beyond other original works and theories of said fans. Given the lack of such hard rules, the aforementioned official numbers for Freeza and Goku are no more or less correct or valid from any scientific or logical standpoint than any variant numbers for them created by fans.


Done. There are no "opinions" or "arguments" present in anything I stated in that paragraph. Just one big solid block of common sense and reason. Apply a moderate dose of open-mindedness and you'll be all set.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

My point isn't about victory. My point is how the fight directly goes.

If Base Goku fights 50% Freeza a hundred times. He's going to get beaten around all of those times. If he wants to change things to his favor, he's got to change up his game plan. He's got to amplify things, he's got to use Genki-Damas. He has to either do something to increase his abilities and/or decrease Freeza's abilities.

Because until he does, he can't beat Freeza in a direct fight no matter how many times he fights him.

@ Oskuras

Your definition is correct but I think in these points we often refer to as rivaling as being close by or equal but not necessary having to be equal.
Edited by EMIYA, Dec 9 2014, 09:18 PM.
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Kaboom
Dec 9 2014, 09:13 PM
Father Brofist
Dec 9 2014, 08:53 PM
Kaboom. That's fine then, because its clear to me that you can't accept anything without it being stated right to your face and you'd rather take the guidebooks over what's shown in the manga.
I've built up a pretty sturdy resistance to the "slave to the guidebooks" taunt by now, I'm afraid.

Everything I'm about to say in the next paragraph is 100% true. I say them not as a "debater" trying to prove or support a point, but simply to list common sense facts for everyone's benefit.


There's nothing in the manga preventing the numbers listed by the Daizenshuu guidebooks for 100%-power Freeza (120 million) and Super Saiyan Goku (150 million) from being at least plausible, if not factual. The courses of past fights between characters at certain power differences can not be used to determine the outcome of a future fight with a similar difference with any factual certainty. There are no firm established rules, in the Dragon Ball manga or any supplementary source, for determining how a fight will unfold based solely on the percentages and "gaps" of the powers at play. Any such referenced "rules" are only the personal fabrication of fans, based on what is at best a trend, and are of no value beyond other original works and theories of said fans. Given the lack of such hard rules, the aforementioned official numbers for Freeza and Goku are no more or less correct or valid from any scientific or logical standpoint than any variant numbers for them created by fans.


Done. There are no "opinions" or "arguments" present in anything I stated in that paragraph. Just one big solid block of common sense and reason. Apply a moderate dose of open-mindedness and you'll be all set.
I've leveled up reading that. I'm a cheerleader.
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Oskuraz
Dec 9 2014, 09:08 PM
Pyrus
Dec 9 2014, 08:58 PM
Oskuraz
Dec 9 2014, 08:55 PM
Actually, some of them don't make any sense at all or are outright wrong. Take Raditz. His power level is stated to be 1,500, yet he pisses his pants when he sees that Piccolo's power level is 1,330, or when Gohan is at 1,307. It doesn't make much sense. Sure you're worried when someone is 90% of your power, but the facial expression he makes is beyond worried. Nappa also outright stated in the manga that Raditz was equal to a Saibaman's 1,200 power level.

But whatever, I'm fine as long as it doesn't contradict the manga.
Equal to? Try the original translation.

I'm fine with 1,500 for Raditz. He should be above Gohan's 1,307 based on his wording about how it surpassed Goku.
Chapter: 215 (DBZ 21), P1.3
Context: after Tenshinhan beats a Saibaiman
Nappa: “"Im-impossible...!! The Saibaiman's battle power is 1,200...!! Going just by power, he rivals Raditz...!!"
Vegeta: “So [Tenshinhan]'s battle power surpasses that. A simple calculation.”

Rival:
/ˈrʌɪv(ə)l/
•"a person or thing that equals another in quality.
synonyms: equal"

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Toriyama's own opinion goes against that specific definition, as does Raditz's wording.

If that's the definition used throughout the manga, then we've got some retooling of our brains to do.
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Oskuraz
Dec 9 2014, 08:55 PM
Actually, some of them don't make any sense at all or are outright wrong. Take Raditz. His power level is stated to be 1,500, yet he pisses his pants when he sees that Piccolo's power level is 1,330, or when Gohan is at 1,307. It doesn't make much sense. Sure you're worried when someone is 90% of your power, but the facial expression he makes is beyond worried. Nappa also outright stated in the manga that Raditz was equal to a Saibaman's 1,200 power level.


Let me quell your apprehensions...

1) All Raditz's reaction has to mean is that these powers are close enough to hurt him. Given that there are no hard rules for such things, a fighter with a power of 1,500 being wary of attacks with powers in the 1,200 to 1,400 range is totally reasonable.

2) "Nappa said the Saibaimen were equal to Raditz" is a bit of a misconception (and Viz's sloppy translation there doesn't help). The original Japanese term he used is less strict, and means more along the lines of "similar" or "rivaling," or just being on the same general level, and Toriyama himself said in his notes to the anime staff that Raditz is stronger than them. Let me quote Herms on this one from an old Kanzenshuu thread:

Quote:
 
I suppose at this point I gotta do my song and dance again about how the Saibaimen are said to "rival" Raditz (hitteki-suru), not actually equal him. Well, "equal" wouldn't be an especially bad translation of hitteki-suru if people didn't seem hell-bent on interpreting it as absolute mathematical equality. It just means that they're on the same general level. Videl, for instance, is said by Sharpner to "rival" Mister Satan (hitteki-suru again), even though Sharpner and everyone else but Gohan thought Satan was still stronger than her. Also, Toriyama wrote in his memo to the anime staff on the Saibaimen that they're "slightly inferior to Raditz."
Edited by Kaboom, Dec 9 2014, 09:23 PM.
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Edited by DEY DID DIS 2 ME, Dec 9 2014, 09:25 PM.
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Dec 9 2014, 09:23 PM
you ninjad me emmy
You'll be fine.

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I agree with Kaboom's reasoning, but not necessarily with the way he put it forward.
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Father Brofist
Dec 9 2014, 09:06 PM
....Vegeta never put a hole in Kiwi...not sure what you mean by that. Vegeta went for the kill on Kiwi, blew him right up. Goku landed some hits. I have no problem in thinking Vegeta's durability and stuff played a part and I'm not sure if you or the others are understanding what we're getting at.

When we say these gaps, which we call stomp gaps or whatever. We referred to the fact on how the fight will probably go. It'll be in an overwhelming advantage to the other side. one side is going to be landing the hits, dodging the blows. One side is usually completely unhurt and the other side is coughing up blood and on their knees or anything.

In short, no matter how the fight concludes, how the fight starts and goes about is pretty obvious. When Goku's surviving against 50% Freeza, does that mean gaps don't mean anything? No, even without plot it just means Goku has a good survivability. That doesn't stop the fact that's he completely inferior to Freeza in pretty much every way.

And that's the point were trying to make.
I guess that was an anime thing, my bad. Actually no, Vegeta did still punch Kiwi before he turned him into ash. Vegeta being more durable is conjecture though, and if you want to argue that, I can argue Freeza's durability allowed him to survive as long as he did. I'd like for you to read the fight between SSJ Goku and FP Freeza again. At no point during the fight does Freeza deal any significant damage. He lands a few blows, but Goku just shrugs 'em off and or recovers from any knock back. On the other hand Freeza is constantly being dealt blows that do a significant amount of damage and he's often seen on the ground. Hell I think a major point of interest that is glossed over is Freeza's Nova Strike. That amped attack dealt no significant damage to Goku. Need I also remind you that Goku was stalling for time by his own admission. He ain't going all out until Porunga vanishes, and at that point, Goku's advantage becomes quite clear. In regards to this whole survivability thing, Freeza ain't going all out against base Goku, if he was he'd kill him. Goku's goin' all out against Vegeta and Vegeta's still rarin' to go after the beating he took. This is a pretty basic observation. Goku's goin' all out against Vegeta, and he can't keep him down. Vegeta's putting forth almost no effort and he atomizes Kiwi with a punch and some dirty fireworks. The differences between these scenarios should be apparent, and again; Vegeta surviving a Kamehameha almost twice as strong as he was is the only evidence I need to suggest that gaps are not consistent. If plot is the reason Vegeta survived that Kamehameha, plot is the reason Freeza can "keep up" with Goku with 25% gap. You guys are over-analyzing this situation while ignoring instances where this observable trend is disregarded, and most importantly, you're over-analyzing a manga made for kids, written by a gag manga artist. Consistency isn't one of Toriyama's strong suits.
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Dec 9 2014, 09:46 PM.
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