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SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza : How Close Are They?
Topic Started: Dec 9 2014, 04:09 AM (5,855 Views)
DEY DID DIS 2 ME
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lazerbem
Dec 9 2014, 08:15 PM
Ketchup Revenge
Dec 9 2014, 04:22 PM
I have them closer than a 20% difference, which is what the Daiz puts them at (120 mil vs 150 mil)

However, I also don't have Goku at 150,000,000. Due to the fact that the Genki Dama and the damage Freeza recieved from the Genki Dama knocked both their ki down a lot from their initial PLs, I have 100% Freeza at 90 mil, and SSj Goku at 100 mil.
This would only put Goku 10% over Freeza, which is enough to struggle against 100% Freeza like he did, but not enough to be even with him.
Goku's PL stays stagnant for the most part, but Freeza's drops faster (as stated by Goku, which is why he quit against him). This is why Goku seems to be getting stronger by the time that the fight is done.

Goku's PL dropped to 2 mil after forming the Genki Dama, but Freeza dropped to 45 mil, which puts Goku at a 33% decrease, and Freeza at a 25% decrease. That's enough to offset their PLs considerably.

If Goku was 100% when he transforms, then he'd be at 150 mil.
The issue with that is that Freeza at least made no claim of his power level being lower than it should be. Freeza of all people is the type to start making excuses that he wasn't at full power, but he doesn't. He just says "This is 100%!" and proceeds to power-up. It's not like he says "This is 100%!" and then fizzles out when he can't bring out his real 100%

@G Michael Jackson
Goku was screaming "DIE FREEZA!" he didn't sound like he was enjoying it
stop taking things out of context. or at leas tlet us know went you are troln.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

He's not trolling. He's talking about the KHH where's Goku's screaming at Freeza, pumping out veins and about to transform into the Incredible Hulk.
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DEY DID DIS 2 ME
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obviously, Son was having fun while doing that... I tired; all of you know Son had fun fighting freeza. stop trying to say that he wasn't just because he told him to die.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Goku enjoys killing people now, the blood lusted monster.

...That unfortunately explains Goku's s*** eating grin when Gohan's getting his face beaten open by Cell too well.

Like a true Saiyan.
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Father Brofist
Dec 9 2014, 07:45 PM
KK3 Goku vs Vegeta
Vegeta vs Cui
Raditz vs Goku/Piccolo
Freeza vs Nail
2nd Form Freeza vs Vegeta
Ginyu vs KK Goku
Congrats, that's a very thorough list of fights that ended up one-sided. But the results of fights A, B, C, D, E, and F prove nothing about how fight G will end up.

A trend is one thing. Taking that trend and insisting it constitutes a universal rule is something else quite different. Such fan-made rules about gaps mean nothing, and can not prove or discredit anything, especially not something from an official and credible source like the Daizenshuu.

I'm not trying to make a case to defend or explain 150/120 from any super-analytical angle, or trying to tell anyone else they HAVE to use it in their own power level lists or whatever. Just pointing out the very clear and easy fact that something isn't flawed or wrong just because someone doesn't like it. How a fan thinks power gaps and ratios should work does not invalidate the guidebook numbers in any way. Likewise, their own numbers are not "superior" to the guidebook ones in any way just by virtue of fitting with the made-up rules.
Edited by Kaboom, Dec 9 2014, 08:39 PM.
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DEY DID DIS 2 ME
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What's up K-BOOM
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Mihawk
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Kaboom
 
Congrats, that's a very thorough list of fights that ended up one-sided. But the results of fights A, B, C, D, E, and F prove nothing about how fight G will end up.

...Science is based on observing trends and making conclusions based on those trends. Prove is a loaded word. "Show evidence" works better in most contexts.

Kaboom
 
A trend is one thing. Taking that trend and insisting it constitutes a universal rule is something else quite different. Such fan-made rules about gaps mean nothing, and can not prove or discredit anything, especially not something from an official and credible source like the Daizenshuu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Yes I'd rather take a consistent trend that has never been contradicted in the manga then to have to change up the entire trend from the manga to fit with some random BS in a guidebook. Official sure, credible is questionable.

But no, you do this all the time Kaboom on this topic. Instead of trying to help provide evidence on your case, providing some statements, feats, indications, anything to support yourself. You just come up and claim "There's no rule so we should just take the Guidebook seriously." In short, you provide nothing to actually support your claim.

If I have 10 sources indicating that gaps of 1.3x or higher is significantly in favor for one side and then 1 source saying that it isn't. What do you think I'm going to do? I'm not going to try to make the manga fit the guidebooks, I need to make the guidebooks fit the manga.

Consistency, evidence, statements, feats. All of these heavily support, in a complete favor towards the idea of how gaps work. You think I or a lot of other people are going to try to change up the entire trend of the manga to work with one thing in the guidebooks? Here's another question, you think I'm going to change up the entire form of a vaccine just because one out of a thousand people don't get cured?
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Please don't waste my time with semantics. There's no "science" to this stuff, and there's nothing to argue or debate about. I don't constantly point this out because I'm looking to prove a point or "defend the guidebooks." I point it out because it's the truth.

"<Official thing> is wrong because I say so because I decided that a trend is a rule" is baloney. That's all that's going on here. Ignore the guidebook numbers if you want. Use something else for your lists, or your versus matches, or your theories, or whatever you please. That's your prerogative.

But those tidy little 120/150 million numbers in the books still won't be "wrong." They never will be, no matter how much you want to see a consistent "rule" where there is none. No amount of fussing, listing things, or ragging on me will change that.
Edited by Kaboom, Dec 9 2014, 08:51 PM.
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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Vegeta surviving a Kamehameha 77% stronger than he was destroys any notion of consistent gaps. If you can argue plot is the reason he survived, I can argue plot is the reason Freeza was able to keep up with Goku with a much less significant gap. Also in regards to Vegeta vs Kiwi, Vegeta put a hole in him with a single punch. Goku did no such thing to Vegeta despite the gap being equal in both scenarios. Honestly I feel like people are wasting their time disputing numbers given in official sources.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Survivability and actually landing hits on an opponent and hurting them is two different things.

@ Kaboom. That's fine then, because its clear to me that you can't accept anything without it being stated right to your face and you'd rather take the guidebooks over what's shown in the manga.
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Event Horizon
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Actually, some of them don't make any sense at all or are outright wrong. Take Raditz. His power level is stated to be 1,500, yet he pisses his pants when he sees that Piccolo's power level is 1,330, or when Gohan is at 1,307. It doesn't make much sense. Sure you're worried when someone is 90% of your power, but the facial expression he makes is beyond worried. Nappa also outright stated in the manga that Raditz was equal to a Saibaman's 1,200 power level.

But whatever, I'm fine with you guys relying on Daiz power levels, as long as they don't contradict the manga.
Edited by Event Horizon, Dec 9 2014, 08:57 PM.
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DSTREET45
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@+ ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

I don't remember Vegeta putting a hole in Cui, I'm pretty sure he only did that to Zarbon.
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Mihawk
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Kaboom
Dec 9 2014, 08:45 PM
Please don't waste my time with semantics. There's no "science" to this stuff, and there's nothing to argue or debate about. I don't constantly point this out because I'm looking to prove a point or "defend the guidebooks." I point it out because it's the truth.

"<Official thing> is wrong because I say so because I decided that a trend is a rule" is baloney. That's all that's going on here. Ignore the guidebook numbers if you want. Use something else for your lists, or your versus matches, or your theories, or whatever you please. That's your prerogative.

But those tidy little 120/150 million numbers in the books still won't be "wrong." They never will be, no matter how much you want to see a consistent "rule" where there is none. No amount of fussing, listing things, or ragging on me will change that.
You were making the argument that trends mean nothing. Which is just lel.

Just crying semantics isn't going to make you right. Just saying your viewpoint is right and everyone else is just a lowly fan won't make you right. You aren't the pope of the franchise.

This isn't personal. It's just the truth.

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Oskuraz
Dec 9 2014, 08:55 PM
Actually, some of them don't make any sense at all or are outright wrong. Take Raditz. His power level is stated to be 1,500, yet he pisses his pants when he sees that Piccolo's power level is 1,330, or when Gohan is at 1,307. It doesn't make much sense. Sure you're worried when someone is 90% of your power, but the facial expression he makes is beyond worried. Nappa also outright stated in the manga that Raditz was equal to a Saibaman's 1,200 power level.

But whatever, I'm fine as long as it doesn't contradict the manga.
Equal to? Try the original translation.

I'm fine with 1,500 for Raditz. He should be above Gohan's 1,307 based on his wording about how it surpassed Goku.
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