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SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza : How Close Are They?
Topic Started: Dec 9 2014, 04:09 AM (5,856 Views)
+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans
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魔王子

Father Brofist
Dec 9 2014, 03:57 PM
Vegeta didn't hold his own against KK3 Goku, he got the snot kicked out of him. Just because Vegeta survived (Which was nothing short of plot in the end) doesn't mean Vegeta's power now rivals KK3 Goku or anything. You might say he has better endurance or something buts its clear as far as fighting capabilties, he's greatly outmatched.
He was still able to fight back, that's the point I'm trying to make. There's a clear difference between these 2 scenarios despite the gap between the characters being equal in both scenarios. So let me get this straight, Vegeta surviving a Kamehameha much much stronger than he was is ok because plot, but when Freeza is able to keep up with Goku with a much lesser 25% difference, it's an inconsistency, and it should be disregarded? That simply doesn't fly, and if you want to chuck Vegeta's survival up to durability, I could argue the same for Freeza, as Freeza only landed a few blows, which didn't have much of an effect.
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Dec 9 2014, 04:06 PM.
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

I have them closer than a 20% difference, which is what the Daiz puts them at (120 mil vs 150 mil)

However, I also don't have Goku at 150,000,000. Due to the fact that the Genki Dama and the damage Freeza recieved from the Genki Dama knocked both their ki down a lot from their initial PLs, I have 100% Freeza at 90 mil, and SSj Goku at 100 mil.
This would only put Goku 10% over Freeza, which is enough to struggle against 100% Freeza like he did, but not enough to be even with him.
Goku's PL stays stagnant for the most part, but Freeza's drops faster (as stated by Goku, which is why he quit against him). This is why Goku seems to be getting stronger by the time that the fight is done.

Goku's PL dropped to 2 mil after forming the Genki Dama, but Freeza dropped to 45 mil, which puts Goku at a 33% decrease, and Freeza at a 25% decrease. That's enough to offset their PLs considerably.

If Goku was 100% when he transforms, then he'd be at 150 mil.
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Dec 9 2014, 04:25 PM.
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EMIYA
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Dec 9 2014, 04:05 PM
Father Brofist
Dec 9 2014, 03:57 PM
Vegeta didn't hold his own against KK3 Goku, he got the snot kicked out of him. Just because Vegeta survived (Which was nothing short of plot in the end) doesn't mean Vegeta's power now rivals KK3 Goku or anything. You might say he has better endurance or something buts its clear as far as fighting capabilties, he's greatly outmatched.
He was still able to fight back, that's the point I'm trying to make. There's a clear difference between these 2 scenarios despite the gap between the characters being equal in both scenarios. So let me get this straight, Vegeta surviving a Kamehameha much much stronger than he was is ok because plot, but when Freeza is able to keep up with Goku with a much lesser 25% difference, it's an inconsistency, and it should be disregarded? That simply doesn't fly, and if you want to chuck Vegeta's survival up to durability, I could argue the same for Freeza, as Freeza only landed a few blows, which didn't have much of an effect.
See we're looking at two different things. I don't see Vegeta holding his on against KK3 Goku. Either offensively or defensively. Goku beat him down, dodged every blow, by the end Vegeta was coughing up blood and gagging. The only thing Vegeta was holding was his intestines. The difference between Goku vs Vegeta and Vegeta vs Cui was the fact that, Vegeta went for the finish instantly. Goku did combos instead and slowly beat Vegeta down.

You can say Vegeta has more endurance the Cui, I got no problem with that. But the only thing Vegeta did was survive longer, he didn't hold his own though. Just as he didn't hold his own against Kid Boo. He survived sure, be that plot or endurance or whatever. But he didn't hold his own.

There's no inconsistency in the manga as far as Freeza and Goku goes. It needs be realized that its not the manga's job to fit with the guidebook, it's the guidebooks job to fit with the manga. If the guidebooks don't fit with what we see in the manga, why bother following it?

KK3 Goku vs Vegeta...Goku beat Vegeta senseless.

Vegeta vs Cui...Vegeta annihilated Cui

Goku vs Freeza according to the Daiz? Despite having a similar gap as the others, suddenly its like, instead of one side beating the snot out of the other, both sides are beating each other. It would be one thing if Freeza was just surviving due to his endurance and wasn't landing hits or something. But Freeza was landing legitimate hits.

So what makes Goku vs Freeza so different from KK3 Goku vs Vegeta? Why is it that Goku and Freeza can have a relatively equal match but Vegeta gets beat around senselessly by Goku?
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The guidebooks DO fit with the manga (in this department). There have never been any rules for "gaps" established in them or anything else. Fighter A badly losing to Fighter B at an X% power disadvantage does not guarantee Fighter C will lose as badly to Fighter D with the same proportion. "Gaps" have no predictable consistency and far too much importance placed on them by PLs-focused fans.

Freeza at 120 million to Goku's 150 million, as listed by pretty much everything, works fine and is what I've always gone with. Their physical injuries may have been affecting their performance to some degree, but Goku's transformation and Freeza's untouched reserves would mean they're both at top capacity as far as power level is concerned.
Edited by Kaboom, Dec 9 2014, 05:05 PM.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

The manga doesn't need to tell you what specific gaps do, it shows us.
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Saberoph
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But, but, but the guidebooks are fact and since there isn't another Guidebook that specifically says it's wrong, so it much be right, because didn't you know the Guidebooks are as canon as the Manga, you know simply because I want it to be and since it's my opinion it's fact.

That is the logic that's going around right? :cool:
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Kaboom didn't say that... he didn't even think it.
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the 150/120 is bullsht I mean it would be vegeta vs cui rematch it is over a 25% gap which is more than enough to one punch someone

I think it was 150 /140-145

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Man! That 150/140 is bulls***! I just like say that it's bulls***. I trol sometimes but it's generally entertaining.
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Imma make up some BS rules about gaps that are inconsistent for the sake of consistency.

Makes sense, methinks.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

I'm still waiting for a response from last time.

Why does Vegeta get beaten senseless by KK3 Goku but Freeza with a similar gap fight nearly equally with SSJ Goku?

I mean, Vegeta's a skilled opponent, good techniques, decent amplification it seems. Freeza meanwhile was just throwing out hard punches, lacking stamina and was nearly killed a few minutes ago.

So...why on earth may I ask again is Vegeta doing so much worse than Freeza under similar circumstances? I dare say Freeza had it worse. At least Vegeta didn't get Genki-Damafied yet at this point.
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Father Brofist
Dec 9 2014, 07:17 PM
Why does Vegeta get beaten senseless by KK3 Goku but Freeza with a similar gap fight nearly equally with SSJ Goku?

Because those are two different fights against two different opponents. A vs B does not affect X vs Y.

No further answer is necessary.
Edited by Kaboom, Dec 9 2014, 07:34 PM.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

KK3 Goku vs Vegeta

Vegeta vs Cui

Raditz vs Goku/Piccolo

Freeza vs Nail

2nd Form Freeza vs Vegeta

Ginyu vs KK Goku

You know what all of these fights have in common? They're all around 1.3x or higher and they all end with one having an overwhelming advantage over the other side. Different fights, and different opponents means jack s*** when the same out comes is happenings every time. No further answer necessary? Don't make me laugh, you can't even give one.
Edited by EMIYA, Dec 9 2014, 07:46 PM.
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Power is a definite factor in fights. But 133% and 125% are also two different numbers, and people seem to act as if they are the same number.

Also, Vegeta beat Dodoria and Zarbon fairly easily, just like Vegeta shouted Final Flash at Cell, so I think I have you beat there.

There is also the mention of Son Goku wanting to enjoy his fight with Freeza before leaving Namek.

Also, a fighter at 80% is still fighting seriously, although said fighter isn't having to give everything she-/he's got to keep up.

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Edited by DEY DID DIS 2 ME, Dec 9 2014, 08:19 PM.
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lazerbem
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Dec 9 2014, 04:22 PM
I have them closer than a 20% difference, which is what the Daiz puts them at (120 mil vs 150 mil)

However, I also don't have Goku at 150,000,000. Due to the fact that the Genki Dama and the damage Freeza recieved from the Genki Dama knocked both their ki down a lot from their initial PLs, I have 100% Freeza at 90 mil, and SSj Goku at 100 mil.
This would only put Goku 10% over Freeza, which is enough to struggle against 100% Freeza like he did, but not enough to be even with him.
Goku's PL stays stagnant for the most part, but Freeza's drops faster (as stated by Goku, which is why he quit against him). This is why Goku seems to be getting stronger by the time that the fight is done.

Goku's PL dropped to 2 mil after forming the Genki Dama, but Freeza dropped to 45 mil, which puts Goku at a 33% decrease, and Freeza at a 25% decrease. That's enough to offset their PLs considerably.

If Goku was 100% when he transforms, then he'd be at 150 mil.
The issue with that is that Freeza at least made no claim of his power level being lower than it should be. Freeza of all people is the type to start making excuses that he wasn't at full power, but he doesn't. He just says "This is 100%!" and proceeds to power-up. It's not like he says "This is 100%!" and then fizzles out when he can't bring out his real 100%

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Goku was screaming "DIE FREEZA!" he didn't sound like he was enjoying it
Edited by lazerbem, Dec 9 2014, 08:15 PM.
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