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Why Goku didn't turn into Ssjin3 inside Boo's body
Topic Started: Dec 6 2014, 03:57 PM (5,695 Views)
Fearless Saiyajin
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Speed? Theres no loss speed in Ssjin3 form only strain does.
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* Yu Narukami
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SaiyanXjin5
Dec 12 2014, 02:54 PM
Speed? Theres no loss speed in Ssjin3 form only strain does.
Yes, but the speed that he would gain by using SSJ3 isn't worth the ki he'd lose by transforming.
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Fearless Saiyajin
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Nagito Komaeda
Dec 12 2014, 03:11 PM
SaiyanXjin5
Dec 12 2014, 02:54 PM
Speed? Theres no loss speed in Ssjin3 form only strain does.
Yes, but the speed that he would gain by using SSJ3 isn't worth the ki he'd lose by transforming.
Your making an assumption which isn't based on manga. Goku could turn into Ssjin3 instantly and has no problem at all. Ssjin3's problem is strain thats all.
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SaiyanXjin5
Dec 12 2014, 04:21 PM
Nagito Komaeda
Dec 12 2014, 03:11 PM
SaiyanXjin5
Dec 12 2014, 02:54 PM
Speed? Theres no loss speed in Ssjin3 form only strain does.
Yes, but the speed that he would gain by using SSJ3 isn't worth the ki he'd lose by transforming.
Your making an assumption which isn't based on manga. Goku could turn into Ssjin3 instantly and has no problem at all. Ssjin3's problem is strain thats all.
Vegeta talks about the ki loss that comes along with transformations when thinking about Goku's training before the Cell Games. Each time they transform, they use some ki. With SSJ2, it isn't that bad, because once they've used that ki, it's not that draining. SSJ3, on the other hand, has a huge drain on ki and, knowing this, Goku opted for the form that would keep him in a good condition afterwards.
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Fearless Saiyajin
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So ignoring Ssjin3 Goku against Bootenks?
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SaiyanXjin5
Dec 12 2014, 05:10 PM
So ignoring Ssjin3 Goku against Bootenks?
Right, so ignoring the completely different context behind the situations? Saving everyone and getting out of Boo would take a little while, so imagine how much ki he would waste if he was SSJ3 the entire time. With Bootenks, he didn't have to be in the form for very long, just until Gohan found the earring.
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Saberoph
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We're not ignoring anything. When it comes down to it, Kakarrot Transforming into SS3 inside Super Boo would be completely useless because it would be a strain and either Dende or Kibitoshin would have to heal him, so I'm guess that would happen either before, during or after the conversations we know they had on the Kaioshin Planet. That's not assuming anything, that's straight up common sense.

Also, Kakarrot did have a plan for beating Boo for when they got out, but Vegeta literally crushed his half of it, then Kakarrot crushed his half, then Kakarrot brought up Plan B, and Vegeta shot that down too. If Fat Boo had never been ripped out of Super Boo, it's only safe and logical to believe Gohan, Goten and Trunks would all be healed at the Kaioshin Planet. So, that could have been Plan C, and pulling Fat Boo out was obviously a last minute Plan D.
Edited by Saberoph, Dec 12 2014, 07:57 PM.
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Nagito Komaeda
Dec 11 2014, 01:07 AM
Nanho
Dec 11 2014, 01:00 AM
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Firstly, Piccolo never expected Gotenks to use the ROSAT for a day. The ROSAT never once came up until Boo popped up and they realized that unless they did something now, Super Boo would slaughter Gotenks.

He told them to train for one day its only logical he meant the ROSAT...or did you want akira to 'spoon feed' us that?

Quote:
 

If "power" is not greater...than that means "everything" is not greater. It's a contradiction of definition. Get a dictionary and look it up.

It wouldnt be the first time a word was carelessly or wrongly used in the manga.
super buu: This is the birth of the strongest 'possible' majin. i couldn't 'possibly' be stronger than this.

Trying to disregard the use of a word
...I was merely suggesting we keep an open mind on the usage of the word in the manga.

Quote:
 
to support

Did you not see my other post while you were skimming through this thread?


Quote:
 

Although i believe he included power when saying everything was greater. i can understand why people wouldnt. it wouldnt be right for piccolo to be the only one that noticed it (his ki sensing ability was never shown in the past to be superior than the others) . krillin, goku and trunks(who could tell gokus as ssj2 was as strong as his father but couldnt tell a difference in buu apart from his appearance.



Quote:
 
your otherwise evidence-deprived argument isn't very effective.
Are you kidding me? There isnt much evidence to utilize for this topic, obviously; If you were actually following this read you'd have realized its 99% conjecture.

Pyrus
Dec 11 2014, 03:49 AM
Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P11.1
Boo: “…What do you think, Gohan? My strategy succeeded safely. Look, isn’t it magnificent? This is a moment that will never appear again, no matter what the future may hold: the birth of the strongest majin.”


On the topic of Gotenks using the RoSaT, isn't it weird that after Piccolo told Gotenks to "train as much as you can," no mention of the RoSaT was present?

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”


Keep in mind this was said after Base Gotenks came back from fighting Boo, not Super Saiyan Gotenks, so this was the day after Goku left, giving them that whole day and then a whole other day to train for Boo (which is supported by Piccolo's statement above as well as Herms' timeline).[1] Piccolo didn't have the boys fuse as Super Saiyans until the second day, which means he had the entire rest of the first day to send the boys into the Room of Spirit and Time, yet we know from later in the story that he never did this. If he wanted the boys to train in the Room of Spirit and Time, what was he waiting for -- the last possible second before their designated time expired? And if he did send them into the Room of Spirit and Time (without any mention of having done so by any character or out-of-universe source), why was it treated as an entirely new thing for the boys and as a surprise to Krillin (who was on the Lookout the entire time), instead of something they'd already done? It would make no sense, even in an arc as badly written as this one. Posted Image
They fuse as super saiyan in the early morning of the day and then train for the rest of the day......



[1] http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19669
Edited by Nanho, Dec 13 2014, 03:10 AM.
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Fearless Saiyajin
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Nagito Komaeda
Dec 12 2014, 05:33 PM
SaiyanXjin5
Dec 12 2014, 05:10 PM
So ignoring Ssjin3 Goku against Bootenks?
Right, so ignoring the completely different context behind the situations? Saving everyone and getting out of Boo would take a little while, so imagine how much ki he would waste if he was SSJ3 the entire time. With Bootenks, he didn't have to be in the form for very long, just until Gohan found the earring.
Your not making any sense, Ssjin3 takes ki to transform but he thought he could used Ssjin3 long enough to beat Boo. And your gonna escape infront of Boo? That would be like Gohan was trying to run against Fat Boo then got smack since he's not fast enough. Imagine how would Goku as a Ssjin/2 will escape against Super Boo who is 100x stronger than him?

Against Bootenks, he just need to stay in that form until Gohan found it which makes sensed he can stall for that not to get one shot.
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* Yu Narukami
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SaiyanXjin5
Dec 13 2014, 06:52 AM
Nagito Komaeda
Dec 12 2014, 05:33 PM
SaiyanXjin5
Dec 12 2014, 05:10 PM
So ignoring Ssjin3 Goku against Bootenks?
Right, so ignoring the completely different context behind the situations? Saving everyone and getting out of Boo would take a little while, so imagine how much ki he would waste if he was SSJ3 the entire time. With Bootenks, he didn't have to be in the form for very long, just until Gohan found the earring.
Your not making any sense, Ssjin3 takes ki to transform but he thought he could used Ssjin3 long enough to beat Boo. And your gonna escape infront of Boo? That would be like Gohan was trying to run against Fat Boo then got smack since he's not fast enough. Imagine how would Goku as a Ssjin/2 will escape against Super Boo who is 100x stronger than him?

Against Bootenks, he just need to stay in that form until Gohan found it which makes sensed he can stall for that not to get one shot.
Except they were most likely hoping to find the kids, Gohan and Piccolo and free them without ever having to confront Boo. Would they just assume that Boo can make copies of himself inside his own body? That would be a wild assumption on their part. As far as they're concerned, they were absorbed by Boo and that's that. They're inside him now and he's outside, so they wouldn't have to see him.

Regarding beating Boo; yeah, but he drained most of his time using it. If he was draining ki instead, even using it for 5 minutes, it would've had a huge drain on his ki. With Bootenks, he had to stall until Gohan found the earring. Considering he just dropped it very close to him, Goku wouldn't be expecting to have to stall for very long. Whereas inside Boo, he was still expecting the possibility of having to fuse once they got out of Boo. They had no idea what condition Gohan would be in when they rescued him, so they wouldn't just assume that he'd be at full power or in fighting shape. Unless you think he was planning on going up against regular Evil Boo with SSJ3, you'd have to say that he was planning on fusing into Gogeta to finish Boo off.
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* Yu Narukami
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Nagito Komaeda
Dec 11 2014, 01:07 AM
Nanho
Dec 11 2014, 01:00 AM
Quote:
 
Firstly, Piccolo never expected Gotenks to use the ROSAT for a day. The ROSAT never once came up until Boo popped up and they realized that unless they did something now, Super Boo would slaughter Gotenks.

He told them to train for one day its only logical he meant the ROSAT...or did you want akira to 'spoon feed' us that?

Quote:
 

If "power" is not greater...than that means "everything" is not greater. It's a contradiction of definition. Get a dictionary and look it up.

It wouldnt be the first time a word was carelessly or wrongly used in the manga.
super buu: This is the birth of the strongest 'possible' majin. i couldn't 'possibly' be stronger than this.

Trying to disregard the use of a word
...I was merely suggesting we keep an open mind on the usage of the word in the manga.[/quote]

Trying to keep an open mind is fine, but when you're suggesting that we should consider ignoring the use of a word because it may have been used 'wrongly', it gets a little ridiculous. Toriyama is very particular about his dialogue, so every word he uses is there for a reason.

Quote:
 
Quote:
 
to support

Did you not see my other post while you were skimming through this thread?


Quote:
 

Although i believe he included power when saying everything was greater. i can understand why people wouldnt. it wouldnt be right for piccolo to be the only one that noticed it (his ki sensing ability was never shown in the past to be superior than the others) . krillin, goku and trunks(who could tell gokus as ssj2 was as strong as his father but couldnt tell a difference in buu apart from his appearance.


Oh no, I did see it. I'm just wondering why it's even being considered. Are you telling me that Trunks and Krillin, the first of whom is extremely cocky and arrogant, isn't going to question Piccolo when he's having his little crisis on the edge of the Lookout? Why didn't anyone say ''He doesn't seem stronger'' or ''He only looks different''? Instead, they just stay quiet and let Piccolo's assessment pass. I wonder why?


Quote:
 
Quote:
 
your otherwise evidence-deprived argument isn't very effective.
Are you kidding me? There isnt much evidence to utilize for this topic, obviously; If you were actually following this read you'd have realized its 99% conjecture.


Yup, it's mostly conjecture, but I hope you'll notice that all the quotes that have been presented in this argument have been from people arguing for Initial Evil Boo being much, much stronger than Fat Boo.

Quote:
 
Pyrus
Dec 11 2014, 03:49 AM
Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P11.1
Boo: “…What do you think, Gohan? My strategy succeeded safely. Look, isn’t it magnificent? This is a moment that will never appear again, no matter what the future may hold: the birth of the strongest majin.”


On the topic of Gotenks using the RoSaT, isn't it weird that after Piccolo told Gotenks to "train as much as you can," no mention of the RoSaT was present?

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3
Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo
Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…”
Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!”


Keep in mind this was said after Base Gotenks came back from fighting Boo, not Super Saiyan Gotenks, so this was the day after Goku left, giving them that whole day and then a whole other day to train for Boo (which is supported by Piccolo's statement above as well as Herms' timeline).http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=19669 Piccolo didn't have the boys fuse as Super Saiyans until the second day, which means he had the entire rest of the first day to send the boys into the Room of Spirit and Time, yet we know from later in the story that he never did this. If he wanted the boys to train in the Room of Spirit and Time, what was he waiting for -- the last possible second before their designated time expired? And if he did send them into the Room of Spirit and Time (without any mention of having done so by any character or out-of-universe source), why was it treated as an entirely new thing for the boys and as a surprise to Krillin (who was on the Lookout the entire time), instead of something they'd already done? It would make no sense, even in an arc as badly written as this one. Posted Image
They fuse as super saiyan in the early morning of the day and then train for the rest of the day......


Just to add to this discussion;

Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.4-5
Context: after evil Boo shows up and demands to fight Gotenks
Piccolo: “Go hit Trunks and Goten to wake them up, and take them into the Room of Spirit and Time…! Even in just 1 hour, they’ll be able to do 15 days worth of training.”
Kuririn: “Heh!? If we do it now…”
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

Krillin's reaction pretty much tells us that they haven't gone in yet. Instead of ''If we do it now...'', why wouldn't he have mentioned about them going in before?
Edited by Yu Narukami, Dec 13 2014, 12:07 PM.
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Fearless Saiyajin
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Nagito Komaeda
Dec 13 2014, 11:39 AM
SaiyanXjin5
Dec 13 2014, 06:52 AM
Nagito Komaeda
Dec 12 2014, 05:33 PM
SaiyanXjin5
Dec 12 2014, 05:10 PM
So ignoring Ssjin3 Goku against Bootenks?
Right, so ignoring the completely different context behind the situations? Saving everyone and getting out of Boo would take a little while, so imagine how much ki he would waste if he was SSJ3 the entire time. With Bootenks, he didn't have to be in the form for very long, just until Gohan found the earring.
Your not making any sense, Ssjin3 takes ki to transform but he thought he could used Ssjin3 long enough to beat Boo. And your gonna escape infront of Boo? That would be like Gohan was trying to run against Fat Boo then got smack since he's not fast enough. Imagine how would Goku as a Ssjin/2 will escape against Super Boo who is 100x stronger than him?

Against Bootenks, he just need to stay in that form until Gohan found it which makes sensed he can stall for that not to get one shot.
Except they were most likely hoping to find the kids, Gohan and Piccolo and free them without ever having to confront Boo. Would they just assume that Boo can make copies of himself inside his own body? That would be a wild assumption on their part. As far as they're concerned, they were absorbed by Boo and that's that. They're inside him now and he's outside, so they wouldn't have to see him.

Regarding beating Boo; yeah, but he drained most of his time using it. If he was draining ki instead, even using it for 5 minutes, it would've had a huge drain on his ki. With Bootenks, he had to stall until Gohan found the earring. Considering he just dropped it very close to him, Goku wouldn't be expecting to have to stall for very long. Whereas inside Boo, he was still expecting the possibility of having to fuse once they got out of Boo. They had no idea what condition Gohan would be in when they rescued him, so they wouldn't just assume that he'd be at full power or in fighting shape. Unless you think he was planning on going up against regular Evil Boo with SSJ3, you'd have to say that he was planning on fusing into Gogeta to finish Boo off.
We're talking about after Boo was inside of his body not assuming anything.
I don't see any problem here, if Goku cannot used Ssjin3 because of energy drain then he would say it so. But he didn't instead turning into Ssjin/2. First you assume it was speed and now ki drain?
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We know Piccolo didn't send the boys into the Room of Spirit and Time until Evil Boo was born, despite having two days to do so. His deciding against that course of action is all the implication one needs to affirm his confidence in Gotenks being able to get the job done against Fat Boo, assuming Gotenks doesn't waste all of his Fusion time showing off.

This is DBZ, of course, and insane increases in strength have been made in short amounts of time, such as Piccolo passing up Vegeta in six days on Kaio's planet while we never saw him do anything but meditate, or Piccolo gaining Super Saiyan-like power in three years prior to the androids' arrival, but this was one day with no special circumstances attached to it, and no implications or statements later on. When Evil Boo was born, we never got a statement implying Gotenks had finally surpassed Fat Boo after training for that one day, but was now no match for the newest antagonist. We never got any statements or implications that the boys or Gotenks had increased their strength in any significant way before Evil Boo appeared. It's made more apparent due to Piccolo specifying "even a little bit stronger" when talking about the boys training for a day, implying even he knew one day would yield minor results, if any at all.

All of that is rather extraneous, though, when you see that Piccolo told them to train until their fight with Boo, which was the next day when he sent Super Saiyan Gotenks. He didn't do that as a trial run. He didn't do that for the hell of it. That was going to be the fight, supported by him worrying about Gotenks wasting his power showing off and then only having one minute left of Fusion time. We didn't see the boys training or get any statement thereafter from Piccolo scolding them about being too weak or needing to train. The most logical conclusion to all of that would be Gotenks not needing further training to beat the current foe, otherwise we'd have been clued in on this further demand for satisfactory results.
Edited by Pyrus, Dec 13 2014, 04:05 PM.
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