What if Goku was the final villain of the manga?

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What if Goku was the final villain of the manga?
Tweet Topic Started: Nov 2 2014, 10:34 AM (2,058 Views)
Vertical	Nov 4 2014, 01:24 AM Post #16
Posts: 2,542 Group: Member Member #8,475 Joined: October 27, 2012	It would be simpler if Goku, lacking any challenge for years, simply fell into a depression. Within that slump, he realizes that no one keeps up with him because he's the only one with any drive... so, to solve that problem, he will become a reason for the others to be stronger... by playing the bad guy. The bad part is, we've already had the "good guy gone bad" in Majin Vegeta. And even though it may be a bit more extreme in the case of Goku vs the world (instead of Vegeta vs Goku)... it would still be stale.
	DeviantART


lazerbem	Nov 4 2014, 01:24 AM Post #17
Posts: 10,662 Group: Forum Moderator Member #10,435 Joined: November 1, 2013 Gender Male Country United States Favourite Anime Asura's Wrath(it counts) What Browser do you use? Google Chrome	Goku was smiling as Gohan was getting brutally attacked, are you sure he isn't already a villain?
	Crazy cat cults in the woods


Hot Cakes	Nov 4 2014, 08:16 AM Post #18
Posts: 181 Group: Member Member #11,681 Joined: September 19, 2014 Gender Male Country United States What Browser do you use? Internet Explorer.	Quote: It would be simpler if Goku, lacking any challenge for years, simply fell into a depression. Within that slump, he realizes that no one keeps up with him because he's the only one with any drive... so, to solve that problem, he will become a reason for the others to be stronger... by playing the bad guy. Oh, that would just be horrible and OOC. Goku's character gets plenty of criticism as is; this would just make it worse. Quote: The bad part is, we've already had the "good guy gone bad" in Majin Vegeta. And even though it may be a bit more extreme in the case of Goku vs the world (instead of Vegeta vs Goku)... it would still be stale. It's not the same thing; Vegeta wasn't exactly a good guy to begin with at the time. And turning Majin didn't make him that evil again, either. All he wanted to do was fight Goku. He still had control over himself and cared for his loved ones. Plus, my idea is a hypothetical. I was saying that instead of the Boo arc, we should have gotten an arc where Goku gets possessed by some evil being. Majin Vegeta wouldn't have happened if we got this. Edited by Hot Cakes, Nov 4 2014, 08:17 AM.



Vertical	Nov 4 2014, 09:31 AM Post #19
Posts: 2,542 Group: Member Member #8,475 Joined: October 27, 2012	I was merely presenting a simpler alternative towards the same goal and breaking it down into an extremely shortened summary. It's not OOC if you write/develop his character that way... OOC moments are only the result of poor planning/preparation/writing. Also, I have not seen you mention that you were replacing the Buu arc... so I had assumed you meant post-Buu. And yes, Vegeta is not technically possessed, nor a "good" guy... but the concept, at the core, is the same: one of their allies has become their enemy. Even if it was not completely explored (with the usual "oh no, I can't attack this person, they're my friend/family/lover"). The specifics don't matter much if you're repeating the core idea. I do not mind your general concept of Goku being the final villain... but I believe your finer points to be quite silly. Feel free to re-write it as you see fit and bedazzle me though. I'll be sure to retract my comments if you're successful.
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Hot Cakes	Nov 4 2014, 09:40 AM Post #20
Posts: 181 Group: Member Member #11,681 Joined: September 19, 2014 Gender Male Country United States What Browser do you use? Internet Explorer.	Quote: I was merely presenting a simpler alternative towards the same goal and breaking it down into an extremely shortened summary. It's not OOC if you write/develop his character that way... OOC moments are only the result of poor planning/preparation/writing. The idea of Goku pretending to be a bad guy just to test everyone comes off as very OOC. And a lot of people would hate that. Here's a tip for good writing: take other people's opinions into consideration. Quote: And yes, Vegeta is not technically possessed, nor a "good" guy... but the concept, at the core, is the same: one of their allies has become their enemy. Even if it was not completely explored (with the usual "oh no, I can't attack this person, they're my friend/family/lover"). The specifics don't matter much if you're repeating the core idea. That's a rather superficial viewpoint. It hadn't been fully explored yet, so I don't think it'd feel all that recycled. But Goku getting possessed had already been done when Ginyu switched bodies with him, so I could see why one would consider it to be recycled. Quote: Also, I have not seen you mention that you were replacing the Buu arc... so I had assumed you meant post-Buu. Yeah, I actually didn't say I was offering an alternative to the Boo arc in the OP. My bad. Edited by Hot Cakes, Nov 4 2014, 09:46 AM.



Vertical	Nov 4 2014, 09:48 AM Post #21
Posts: 2,542 Group: Member Member #8,475 Joined: October 27, 2012	Hot Cakes Nov 4 2014, 09:40 AM Quote: I was merely presenting a simpler alternative towards the same goal and breaking it down into an extremely shortened summary. It's not OOC if you write/develop his character that way... OOC moments are only the result of poor planning/preparation/writing. The idea of Goku pretending to be a bad guy just to test everyone comes off as very OOC. And a lot of people would hate that. Here's a tip for good writing: take other people's opinions into consideration. As I said, it was simple a summary... and with development, you can make anything "in-character". As for your tip: perhaps you could apply it here.
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Hot Cakes	Nov 4 2014, 09:51 AM Post #22
Posts: 181 Group: Member Member #11,681 Joined: September 19, 2014 Gender Male Country United States What Browser do you use? Internet Explorer.	Vertical Nov 4 2014, 09:48 AM Hot Cakes Nov 4 2014, 09:40 AM Quote: I was merely presenting a simpler alternative towards the same goal and breaking it down into an extremely shortened summary. It's not OOC if you write/develop his character that way... OOC moments are only the result of poor planning/preparation/writing. The idea of Goku pretending to be a bad guy just to test everyone comes off as very OOC. And a lot of people would hate that. Here's a tip for good writing: take other people's opinions into consideration. As I said, it was simple a summary... and with development, you can make anything "in-character". As for your tip: perhaps you could apply it here. Thing is, you're just one person with the idea of Goku choosing to play the bad guy to test everyone. The majority would probably hate that. It's the majority's opinion that should be taken into consideration, not just one guy on a message board. And not everything can be made in-character. Goku has never been shown to be the kind of person who'd do what you're suggesting. Edited by Hot Cakes, Nov 4 2014, 09:59 AM.



Vertical	Nov 4 2014, 10:03 AM Post #23
Posts: 2,542 Group: Member Member #8,475 Joined: October 27, 2012	Hot Cakes Nov 4 2014, 09:51 AM Vertical Nov 4 2014, 09:48 AM Hot Cakes Nov 4 2014, 09:40 AM Quote: I was merely presenting a simpler alternative towards the same goal and breaking it down into an extremely shortened summary. It's not OOC if you write/develop his character that way... OOC moments are only the result of poor planning/preparation/writing. The idea of Goku pretending to be a bad guy just to test everyone comes off as very OOC. And a lot of people would hate that. Here's a tip for good writing: take other people's opinions into consideration. As I said, it was simple a summary... and with development, you can make anything "in-character". As for your tip: perhaps you could apply it here. Thing is, you're just one person with the idea of Goku choosing to play the bad guy to test everyone. The majority would probably hate that. It's the majority's opinion that should be taken into consideration, not just one guy on a message board. And not everything can be made in-character. Goku has never been shown to be a depressed individual. He's not the kind of person who'd do what you're suggesting. sigh You're looking too much at the specifics of a VERY simplified summary. You've even taken it in your own personal direction (I never said anything about testing) and drawn your conclusions from it. Seriously, I'm not trying to push this idea at all. I was only offering an alternative that would not require any more original characters. One that would give Goku some character development as opposed to simply playing the victim, and being removed for the majority of the arc as he usually finds himself in the latter half of the series. He's "main" character of the franchise, and if he was going to be the villain in the final arc, it might as well actually be him. Also, you should probably stop giving out tips if you value the majority opinion so highly. And... Goku is a fictional character who has very little depth (not necessarily a bad thing). Bending him into a depressed individual (for a small portion of time) wouldn't actually be that hard.
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Hot Cakes	Nov 4 2014, 10:11 AM Post #24
Posts: 181 Group: Member Member #11,681 Joined: September 19, 2014 Gender Male Country United States What Browser do you use? Internet Explorer.	Vertical Nov 4 2014, 10:03 AM sigh You're looking too much at the specifics of a VERY simplified summary. You've even taken it in your own personal direction (I never said anything about testing) and drawn your conclusions from it. Seriously, I'm not trying to push this idea at all. I was only offering an alternative that would not require any more original characters. One that would give Goku some character development as opposed to simply playing the victim, and being removed for the majority of the arc as he usually finds himself in the latter half of the series. He's "main" character of the franchise, and if he was going to be the villain in the final arc, it might as well actually be him. Also, you should probably stop giving out tips if you value the majority opinion so highly. And... Goku is a fictional character who has very little depth (not necessarily a bad thing). Bending him into a depressed individual (for a small portion of time) wouldn't actually be that hard. Your idea is Goku going evil on his own accord. It doesn't matter how simplified your summary was; at core, that idea comes off as VERY much out of character. That simply isn't the Goku people know and love. The majority would very likely hate that. There's no reason for me to stop giving out tips, seeing as I'm not the one who has an idea that most people would probably hate.



Fearless Saiyajin	Nov 4 2014, 10:12 AM Post #25
Legendary of Super Saiyan Posts: 1,484 Group: Member Member #11,648 Joined: September 3, 2014 Gender Male Country India Favourite Anime Dragonball/Z/GT and Ranma 1/2 What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga DragonballZ and Ranma 1/2	Some of the ideas here aren't fit for dragon ball but I'll share mine When Goku transform into Super Saiyan for the for the first time and the Evil Goku or True Kakarot is starting to waking up and it wasn't major yet until the Ssjin3 how Goku's attitude like it wasn't Goku anymore. When he went Ssjin4 against Baby, Kakarot is able to share his characteristics, thus he has some evil smirks always.
	DragonballZeta


Vertical	Nov 4 2014, 10:40 AM Post #26
Posts: 2,542 Group: Member Member #8,475 Joined: October 27, 2012	Hot Cakes Nov 4 2014, 10:11 AM Vertical Nov 4 2014, 10:03 AM sigh You're looking too much at the specifics of a VERY simplified summary. You've even taken it in your own personal direction (I never said anything about testing) and drawn your conclusions from it. Seriously, I'm not trying to push this idea at all. I was only offering an alternative that would not require any more original characters. One that would give Goku some character development as opposed to simply playing the victim, and being removed for the majority of the arc as he usually finds himself in the latter half of the series. He's "main" character of the franchise, and if he was going to be the villain in the final arc, it might as well actually be him. Also, you should probably stop giving out tips if you value the majority opinion so highly. And... Goku is a fictional character who has very little depth (not necessarily a bad thing). Bending him into a depressed individual (for a small portion of time) wouldn't actually be that hard. Your idea is Goku going evil on his own accord. It doesn't matter how simplified your summary was; at core, that idea comes off as VERY much out of character. That simply isn't the Goku people know and love. The majority would very likely hate that. There's no reason for me to stop giving out tips, seeing as I'm not the one who has an idea that most people would probably hate. Again, you're drawing your own conclusions... I said nothing about Goku becoming evil. Your version of my idea is not my version of my idea. And as I have no intent of following through and fleshing out my idea (as it was only an example in the first place), there's no point in jumping to any sort of conclusion regarding the majority opinion of it... let alone using a possible negative opinion as a basis for your ability to provide advice to others... the two of which are completely unrelated. This discussion seems less and less worth the time or effort... so I'm just going to stop. If you follow through with your idea and create something you believe to be great, please let me know as I would like experience it and form [and possibly offer] an opinion of it.
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Hot Cakes	Nov 4 2014, 10:47 AM Post #27
Posts: 181 Group: Member Member #11,681 Joined: September 19, 2014 Gender Male Country United States What Browser do you use? Internet Explorer.	You yourself said your idea was Goku "playing" the bad guy to give everyone a reason to become stronger. One would consider "playing the bad guy" to be going evil. And if he'd be doing it to "give everyone a reason to become stronger", one would say he's "testing" everyone. You yourself suggested an idea. It doesn't matter how vague your description was and it doesn't matter if you're not pushing this idea; people can still explain how they think it wouldn't work as I just did. Is there more than one way to flesh out something? Yes, but I highly doubt one could flesh out Goku pretending to be evil without making him OOC. And if you're suggest something and not back it up once it gets debunked, you may as well shouldn't have even come into the discussion at all. Edited by Hot Cakes, Nov 4 2014, 11:05 AM.



Vertical	Nov 4 2014, 11:44 AM Post #28
Posts: 2,542 Group: Member Member #8,475 Joined: October 27, 2012	I really cannot tell if you're doing this on purpose now... but I'll bite one last time. Hot Cakes Nov 4 2014, 10:47 AM You yourself said your idea was Goku "playing" the bad guy to give everyone a reason to become stronger. One would consider "playing the bad guy" to be going evil. And if he'd be doing it to "give everyone a reason to become stronger", one would say he's "testing" everyone. One would be wrong. One would be jumping to conclusions based on one's own opinion of a vague concept (seems to be habitual). One may also need to look up the meaning of "testing". Please grasp this concept: Your interpretation of a very simplified version of an idea may not be the same as the actual idea itself. Please accept this truth: I will not elaborate further on the idea because: There was no reason to in the first place. If you cannot benefit from it, or at least create a successful concept from it, then ignore it. I enjoy seeing your alternate, self-proclaimed as failing, conclusions. They illustrate your limited imagination... though hopefully will allow you to one day move beyond said limits. Hot Cakes Nov 4 2014, 10:47 AM You yourself suggested an idea. It doesn't matter how vague your description was and it doesn't matter if you're not pushing this idea; people can still explain how they think it wouldn't work as I just did. Is there more than one way to flesh out something? Yes, but I highly doubt one could flesh out Goku pretending to be evil without making him OOC. Your doubt that something is possible does not make something impossible, or even unlikely. And technically, you haven't explained anything. You've concluded that your version of the suggested idea would not succeed (mainly because you cannot envision a depressed Goku and thus believe it to be OOC). Also, who said anything about pretending to be evil? Hot Cakes Nov 4 2014, 10:47 AM And if you're suggest something and not back it up once it gets debunked, you may as well shouldn't have even come into the discussion at all. Nothing was debunked as there was nothing to debunk in the first place. You have simply said that your version of my idea would not be well received by the majority. And, finally, you may be right: maybe I shouldn't have come into the discussion at all. I do not believe I will respond to this thread again. As such, I would prefer if you simply took what I had to say and did not respond to it as anything said will "fall on deaf ears".
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Hot Cakes	Nov 4 2014, 12:21 PM Post #29
Posts: 181 Group: Member Member #11,681 Joined: September 19, 2014 Gender Male Country United States What Browser do you use? Internet Explorer.	Quote: One would be wrong. One would be jumping to conclusions based on one's own opinion of a vague concept (seems to be habitual). One may also need to look up the meaning of "testing". Is it jumping to conclusions? Perhaps, but that would be because of how vague your description was. If you think somebody is jumping to your conclusion on your idea, then you should elaborate on it so they understand it better. That's part of a discussion. If you're gonna say something without backing it up, you may as well shouldn't have even said anything at all, because ultimately, you really didn't have much to contribute. And no, one wouldn't be misunderstanding of the word "testing" if they considered somebody who is pretending to be a bad guy to be "testing" others. These are the definitions for the word "testing": -take measures to check the quality, performance, or reliability of (something), especially before putting it into widespread use or practice. -reveal the strengths or capabilities of (someone or something) by putting them under strain. If Goku is pretending to be a bad guy in order to make everyone become stronger, then isn't he taking measures to check their quality, performance or reliability? Isn't he trying to reveal their strengths and capabilities by putting them under strain? The one who should have checked the definition of "testing" is you. Quote: Please grasp this concept: Your interpretation of a very simplified version of an idea may not be the same as the actual idea itself. Please accept this truth: I will not elaborate further on the idea because: There was no reason to in the first place. If you cannot benefit from it, or at least create a successful concept from it, then ignore it. I enjoy seeing your alternate, self-proclaimed as failing, conclusions. They illustrate your limited imagination... though hopefully will allow you to one day move beyond said limits. Please grasp this concept: when people offer ideas in a discussion, others have every right to offer their opinions on it. That's part of a discussion. They have the right to approve of an idea. They have the right to reject an idea. If one feels that their idea is being misinterpreted, then they should elaborate on it so others can understand it better. I think your idea wouldn't work because the majority would consider it to be OOC. You can think I'm being narrow-minded for not seeing how your idea would work if you want, but you haven't given me a reason to think your idea would work. Quote: And technically, you haven't explained anything. You've concluded that your version of the suggested idea would not succeed (mainly because you cannot envision a depressed Goku and thus believe it to be OOC). I did explain why I don't think your idea would work: the majority would probably not like it as they WOULD likely consider it to be out of character. Basically, at core, your idea is just Goku pretending to be evil to make everyone stronger. This comes off as out of character because Goku is not at all the type of person who would willingly cause a crisis. He would never actually want to harm his loved ones. If the world is at peace, Goku will accept it. He will still train his butt off, but he wouldn't cause some ruckus just to make everyone stronger. Goku is the type of person who FIGHTS a crisis; he doesn't willingly cause it. This isn't just my opinion. I have seen many others who would agree with me. Quote: Also, who said anything about pretending to be evil? You said "pretending to be a bad guy". "Bad guy" and "evil" are often synonymous. Quote: And, finally, you may be right: maybe I shouldn't have come into the discussion at all. I do not believe I will respond to this thread again. As such, I would prefer if you simply took what I had to say and did not respond to it as anything said will "fall on deaf ears". Goodbye. Just don't post if you don't want to continue. It's not that hard. Edited by Hot Cakes, Nov 4 2014, 12:34 PM.



Vertical	Nov 4 2014, 08:00 PM Post #30
Posts: 2,542 Group: Member Member #8,475 Joined: October 27, 2012	Hot Cakes Nov 4 2014, 12:21 PM Is it jumping to conclusions? Perhaps, but that would be because of how vague your description was. If you think somebody is jumping to your conclusion on your idea, then you should elaborate on it so they understand it better. That's part of a discussion. If you're gonna say something without backing it up, you may as well shouldn't have even said anything at all, because ultimately, you really didn't have much to contribute. All I was offering was an idea. As I said earlier, if you cannot benefit from, or draw a successful conclusion from that idea then simply ignore it. There's no need to explain anything if you cannot see beyond your own doubts. Hot Cakes Nov 4 2014, 12:21 PM And no, one wouldn't be misunderstanding of the word "testing" if they considered somebody who is pretending to be a bad guy to be "testing" others. These are the definitions for the word "testing": -take measures to check the quality, performance, or reliability of (something), especially before putting it into widespread use or practice. -reveal the strengths or capabilities of (someone or something) by putting them under strain. If Goku is pretending to be a bad guy in order to make everyone become stronger, then isn't he taking measures to check their quality, performance or reliability? Isn't he trying to reveal their strengths and capabilities by putting them under strain? The one who should have checked the definition of "testing" is you. "in order to make everyone stronger"? More conclusion jumping? At least I understand why you used the word "testing" now. I should've known you had added your own spice to the concept once again... and then accused me of it. Hot Cakes Nov 4 2014, 12:21 PM Please grasp this concept: when people offer ideas in a discussion, others have every right to offer their opinions on it. That's part of a discussion. They have the right to approve of an idea. They have the right to reject an idea. If one feels that their idea is being misinterpreted, then they should elaborate on it so others can understand it better. I think your idea wouldn't work because the majority would consider it to be OOC. You can think I'm being narrow-minded for not seeing how your idea would work if you want, but you haven't given me a reason to think your idea would work. The point of the idea was to offer a simpler path to walk, on your own. Not to hold your hand through the entire process and force your original concept out of the "bad fan fiction" zone. If you cannot see the possibility of success down the path, then don't ask for directions or how to walk it. Hot Cakes Nov 4 2014, 12:21 PM I did explain why I don't think your idea would work: the majority would probably not like it as they WOULD likely consider it to be out of character. Basically, at core, your idea is just Goku pretending to be evil to make everyone stronger. Actually, at it's core, it's about a man going through a mid-life crisis. And again, nothing was said about pretending. Hot Cakes Nov 4 2014, 12:21 PM This comes off as out of character because Goku is not at all the type of person who would willingly cause a crisis. He would never actually want to harm his loved ones. If the world is at peace, Goku will accept it. He will still train his butt off, but he wouldn't cause some ruckus just to make everyone stronger. Goku is the type of person who FIGHTS a crisis; he doesn't willingly cause it. Not willingly cause a crisis? You mean like the entire Buu arc? Hot Cakes Nov 4 2014, 12:21 PM This isn't just my opinion. I have seen many others who would agree with me. yawn Hot Cakes Nov 4 2014, 12:21 PM You said "pretending to be a bad guy". "Bad guy" and "evil" are often synonymous. I said "playing the bad guy"... as in "taking on the role of". I can see how you could interpret "bad guy" as an "evil person" though, so I'll clarify that he would be the "antagonist" and nothing more. Hot Cakes Nov 4 2014, 12:21 PM Just don't post if you don't want to continue. It's not that hard. It really is quite hard to stop posting when you're so frustratingly hostile and continue to miss the point. Please try and understand, the point of my idea wasn't to replace yours, or to instruct you on how to do it successfully. It was to highlight that there was an alternate path available for your overall goal of having Goku as the final antagonist... which is why I see no need to go into detail on it (as then it would be my story, and not yours). So, instead of trying to pry clarification/answers from me as to how I would make it work (or claiming my version would not work)... try for yourself. If you cannot succeed (as it seems you cannot write it in-character), then at least an alternative has been explored. Hopefully my point gets across this time.
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