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- How strong was Cyborg Tao Pai Pai?
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| How strong was Cyborg Tao Pai Pai? | ||
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 28 2014, 03:42 PM (2,574 Views) | ||
| DSTREET45 | Oct 28 2014, 09:30 PM Post #16 | |
 
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Things wrong with that list: 210 is too high for Tao seeing as Krillin and Yamcha were more than capable of following Tien's movements (while Tao was effortlessly blitzed) and impressed Piccolo and Kami respectively, yet their BoZ PL are lower than that. Popo is 1030 seems you say that he trained alongside the Z-fighters. But I doubt he got that high and he wasn't going to fight so I don't think he trained at all (though he did spar with Krillin at some point in the training so it's anyone's call). Kami is weaker than King Piccolo which contradicts statements and feats. Nappa is 4000 which is way too low to at least evenly spar with Goku after Nappa calmed down. Unless that's his suppressed form (if he could suppress) in which case I'd wouldn't have a problem with it. Master Roshi is even with 22nd Goku despite admitting inferiority to Tien who is even with Goku. Piccolo is too high considering that Piccolo said that Gohan's powers should surpass his if Gohan really tried. King Piccolo and Goku are too high considering that Tien should have surpassed them both in the 23rd Budokai. I think Kami is too low since he should be stronger than Tien at this point (pre-training) . Everything else should be fine IMO. |
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| Alex D. Boss | Oct 28 2014, 10:48 PM Post #17 | |
 
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Oh, this is cyborg Tao. Not too far ahead Chi Chi then. | |
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| CamoDBZ | Oct 28 2014, 11:34 PM Post #18 | |
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I put him below Chaoutzou, mainly because he was caugt off guard. Goku went to Korin Tower and creamed Tao. Chaouzou did the same exact thing and more so there was no way Tao good beat him. I idont think Tao being a cyborg boosts his power than much. I mean seriously, if you saw your dead, ex-teacher whos a complete evil psyco I would be staring and awe, and thats when Tao got the upperhand and was able to use the Super Dodon Ray on Chaozou.(Presumeabley) | |
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| + Emmeth | Oct 29 2014, 12:28 AM Post #19 | |
I ♥ Yoeri
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He didn't use the Super Dodonpa on Chaozu because everybody would notice the charge-up. Furthermore, how do we know Chaozu was caught off-guard? How do we know he would be in awe? It's all completely unnecessary conjecture, thus it's easier to put Tao above Chaozu. |
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| * Ketchup Revenge | Oct 29 2014, 12:54 AM Post #20 | |
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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I wouldn't mind putting Cyborg Tao at Goku's level during the King Piccolo fight. That seems pretty reasonable to me. It's still above most fighters, but obviously not Tenshinhan level, who I have around Mr. Popo (not the Popo on the SJ chart), perhaps a little higher. |
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| DSTREET45 | Oct 29 2014, 04:22 AM Post #21 | |
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I don't know about that. Tien still had to at least try a little bit when he was fighting Weighted Goku, who's around the same speed as his KP arc counterpart, evidenced by Tien's heavy breathing and going full speed in the fight. Against Tao, Tien effortlessly blitzed him...twice. As for Popo, Tien needed to go full speed against Weighted Goku to out-speed him while Popo was messing around with KP Arc Goku who was around the same speed as his weighted 23rd BK counterpart. Cyborg Tao shouldn't be much stronger, if at all, than 22nd Tien IMO. |
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| DEY DID DIS 2 ME | Oct 29 2014, 02:18 PM Post #22 | |
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I don't have a problem with Tao's max being greatest than the BoZ scouter reads from [Clearin|Tenshinhan|Yamcha] simply because none of the latter were fighting; the latter are obviously stronger than those reads, just as Tenshinhan was stronger fighting Son Goku than he was fighting Yamcha and Roshi; as well as just as Son Goku and Piccolo were stronger than 416 and 408 when fighting Raditz, and just as the Namekians went from ~1000 to ~3000. 210 is "reasonable". | |
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| DSTREET45 | Oct 29 2014, 04:52 PM Post #23 | |
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Goku and Piccolo were only higher than 416 and 408 when they amped up their attacks. those numbers were clearly their full power seeing that outside of ki attacks Raditz never signified a change in their powerlevels. Tien is possibly off training at the moment and I don't think that anyone at this point could raise/lower their powerlevel outside of attacks. |
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| * Ketchup Revenge | Oct 29 2014, 05:06 PM Post #24 | |
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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How do we know that Weighted Goku was that weak? Goku didn't do much training after the 23rd, therefore it's hard to believe that BoZ Goku was that much stronger than his 23rd self. If Unweighted Goku's level was around 400 at the 23rd, and around (eg) 220 for his fight against Piccolo, Tenshinhan can still be at something like 300, and still be able to stomp someone on King Piccolo Goku's level, and be stomped by someone on 23rd Unweighted Goku's level. Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Oct 29 2014, 05:08 PM.
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The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him. | ||
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| DEY DID DIS 2 ME | Oct 29 2014, 05:22 PM Post #25 | |
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This isn't true. Z-Fighters have already shown the ability to raise power in DB (Budokai 22 as well as Budoaki 23, I already named some of the fights where it happened); those numbers are not clearly their full power. Raditz doesn't have to yeah out every single change of power level. Heck, after Son Goku and Piccolo take off their weights, Raditz even flat-out states that it wouldn't matter if they their battle power hundreds more; I doubt he would have felt the need to state a change from 408 to, say, 600. Yep. Tao reaching a power of 210 with the Dodonpa is reasonable. |
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| DSTREET45 | Oct 29 2014, 08:24 PM Post #26 | |
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It's not that Goku is weak it's just that his speed isn't much different from KP Arc Goku if 23rd Goku is weighted. Tien stated that he gained power but not speed.
Yes but power=/=speed in Weighted Goku's case. Tien flat out stated that Goku gained power but his speed is pretty much the same as 3 years ago. If Goku is a 400 (not what I would've used, especially against Tien, but ok) then he could be around 300 with weights and around a 220 in speed. Tien could be a 240, outspeed weighted Goku (who has the power advantage) and still humiliate KP Arc Goku (the gap is the same as Vegeta vs Dordoria going by databooks) who has the same speed as Weighted Goku. Tien would be over KP Goku by a considerable amount, over Weighted Goku speedwise, still be stomped by Unweighted non-serious Goku, and still be weaker than his BoZ counterpart. (I don't really estimate Power levels often so let me know if I made some mistakes.)
I don't recall you naming any particular fights.
Prove it. They didn't power up throughout the entire fight until they started ki attacks IIRC.
Yet he does feel the need to state that Goku's KHH is over 900 even though it is still massively beneath Raditz's power and was easily neutralized by him, which invalidates this argument. Saying that they randomly charged up mid-battle without notice or with no interest to tell the reader is pure conjecture. Provide evidence that they did power up mid-battle against Raditz.
With the Dodonpa, sure. As his base power-level I personally don't think so. Edited by DSTREET45, Oct 29 2014, 11:42 PM.
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| DEY DID DIS 2 ME | Oct 30 2014, 03:51 AM Post #27 | |
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MY FACE!
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Google. Visually powering up has never been necessary to raise power. Fighters have always been generally stronger when actually fighting. The Namekians were stronger when fighting. The Z-Fighters were stronger than the 1000 when fighting the Saibamen (this is like saying Tenshinhan was only under 1220 during his fight until he did Ki Ko Ho). Piccolo didn't power up against Dr Gero. Among other examples. This does not neutralize any argument; you would like to neutralize the argument; heck you actually started the argument. 900 is substantially higher than 416 or even 600. Why not point it out? Raising power like that is rare. Yes. Otherwise, his power is, perhaps, 180-ish. Edited by DEY DID DIS 2 ME, Oct 30 2014, 05:45 AM.
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| * Ketchup Revenge | Oct 30 2014, 04:41 AM Post #28 | |
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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There's no evidence that Goku knew anything about ki suppression at this time. He can physically hold back, anyone can, but that doesn't mean that their ki is suppressed. I don't remember anyone mentioning his ki level changing at any point. Goku doesn't seem to learn this skill until after he trains under Kaiosama. And just to question, what exactly does this argument have to do with Cyborg Tao? The fact that Tenshinhan was able to blitz weighted Goku, who was roughly the same speed level as his King Piccolo self, really supports the likelihood that Tao was this level or lower. |
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| DSTREET45 | Oct 30 2014, 02:47 PM Post #29 | |
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Ok. Didn't seem very helpful.
Any evidence of this before the Raditz fight (as in raising ki while fighting someone at the same time)?
1. All of these are AFTER the events I'm talking about. 2. The namekians (at least one on panel) powered up right before the fight. Spoiler: click to toggle 3. Tien, Yamcha, and Chiaozu didn't have their PL checked. It's possible that they were at full power already. Even if they weren't see #1.
Give me examples that happening BEFORE the fight against Raditz. Just because they were able to do it then doesn't mean that they did it against Raditz. The first time I remember actually seeing that mid-battle was when Goku fought the Ginyu Force and that's because Goku could raise and drop his power so quickly the scouters couldn't register the flux.
Argument (def 3): a process of reasoning; a series of reasons. In other words: case, defense, statements, points. I'm saying that it invalidates your point of Raditz not needing to mention their power rising since he does it later. The guy doesn't so much as even think to himself that their powers are still rising mid-battle.
Yet it's still weaker than Raditz which as you said earlier wouldn't be worth pointing out since it wouldn't make a difference. It wouldn't matter if 900 is substantially bigger than 600 or 416. And for that matter 600 is a substantially higher than 416 anyway so why wouldn't that be worth noting?
So is raising power mid-fight at that point in the story. And Raditz could've simply stated that Goku is focusing the ki in one area without mentioning the power increase since, according to your logic, the power itself is still noting compared to his and therefore is not worth noting.
It's the fact that Tien had to go full speed to blitz Goku while Tien didn't need to try against Tao. Look at the effort Tien needed to put in when fighting Goku throughout the entire fight. Even when Tien matched Weighted Goku's speed he was still breathing hard. As opposed to when Tien was effortlessly dodging Tao's attacks and blitzing him without having to go full speed. |
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| DEY DID DIS 2 ME | Oct 30 2014, 04:41 PM Post #30 | |
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MY FACE!
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Ok. I likely won't continue, especially since you ignore or deflect from most things that I state.btw I did mention fights prior to this, but you ignored those as well. http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=9068660&t=8506581 I'll name them again. During, Son Goku and/or Tenshinhan Budokai 22 matches each of them held off from fighting to their maximum capacity until fighting one another. Even throughout Son and Piccolo's Budokai 23, Son speaks on Piccolo not showing his true power. Google. These are deflections; as soon as someone answers you're question, you dismiss, and attempt to move on to something else. Point 1 means nothing. My examples are adequate, and #3 is incorrect. Piccolo at 1220 was the strongest power that Nappa read on his scouter. I may give you Point 2. Also, concerning Point 3-see-1. All three of them, and also Clearin, only just received training that Son Goku had received even before Budokai 23. What does them fighting after Son and Raditz have to do with Ten nor Yamcha not visually powering up when fighting Saibamen? Also, I'm sure Piccolo's dispatching of a Saibaman so easily was indicative of more than a battle power of 1220, even before using the mouth blast. Also add that his change in power was so great for the amount of time that he takes to change it. From 5000 to 6000 in that amount of time would not have been as incredible of a feat. 900 to Raditz is actually a lot more of a threat than 600. He would be more cognizant of a rise to 900 than 600. But I'll agree to disagree; I don't want to go back and forth here. (See above) 600 wouldn't be worth noting, because Raditz already states that couple 100 more added to 416 wouldn't bother him. But 900 is actually doubling 416 and Son power was still rising. Heck, Raditz stating that 600 wouldn't be a problem, but then mentioning 900 (and then Piccolo's 1020...1030) says enough. He wouldn't need to mention it. And since we've seen fighters raise power in earlier Budokais and even after Raditz, I'd state it given that fighters can raise power while fighting, and we don't need to told by the manga every time it happens. (see above) Ten vs Roshi; Son Goku vs Ten; heck, Ten vs Tao. You can respond. I'm done. Edited by DEY DID DIS 2 ME, Oct 30 2014, 08:12 PM.
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