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- Ketchup's First and Only ever PL list (post Freeza Arc)
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| Ketchup's First and Only ever PL list (post Freeza Arc) | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 25 2014, 05:26 PM (621 Views) | |
| * Ketchup Revenge | Oct 25 2014, 05:26 PM Post #1 |
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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I usually avoid PL lists like the plague, but I was in the mood lately, so I made one. I also don't believe in Zenkai after SSj. This list also doesn't include the BoG inclusion. TRUNKS ARC: Goku: 6,200,000 Goku(SSj): 310,000,000 Vegeta: 5,000,000 Piccolo: 4,800,000 Trunks(Suppressed): 5 Trunks: 5,600,000 Trunks (SSj): 280,000,000 Gohan: 600,000 Krillin: 300,000 Tenshinhan: 80,000 Yamcha: 30,000 Freeza: 210,000,000 King Cold: 150,000,000 ANDROID ARRIVAL: Goku: 10,000,000 Goku (heart virus): 7,000,000 Goku (actual SSj): 500,000,000 Goku (weakened SSj): 350,000,000 Vegeta: 12,000,000 Vegeta (SSj): 600,000,000 Gohan: 6,000,000 Piccolo(suppressed): 20,000,000 Piccolo (actual): 110,000,000 Trunks: 9,500,000 Trunks(SSj): 452,500,000 Krillin: 5,000,000 Tenshinhan: 2,900,000 Yamcha: 420,000 19 (no ki absorbed): equivalent to 45,000,000 19 (after Kamehameha absorbed): equivalent to 220,000,000 19 (After absorbing Goku's ki): equivalent to 450,000,000 20 (no ki absorbed): equivalent to 55,000,000 20 (Vegeta's blast absorbed): equivalent to 70,000,000 20 (Piccolo's ki absorbed): equivalent to 90,000,000 POST ANDROID FIGHT: Vegeta: 12,000,000 Vegeta(SSj): 600,000,000 Trunks: 9,500,000 Trunks (SSj): 475,000,000 Gohan: 6,100,000 Piccolo ("The Namek"): 800,000,000 Tenshinhan: 2,900,000 Krillin: 6,000,000 17: 810,000,000 18: 750,000,000 16: 900,000,000 Cell (1st form, Initial Appearance): 780,000,000 Cell (1st form, Second Appearance): 1,100,000,000 POST ROSAT/ CELL GAMES: Vegeta: 50,000,000 Vegeta (SSj): 2,500,000,000 Vegeta (SSjG2): 4,500,000,000 Cell (Second form): 3,500,000,000 Cell (Perfect form, initial power): 8,000,000,000 Cell (Perfect form, vs Goku): 11,000,000,000 Cell (Perfect form, full power): 15,000,000,000 Cell (Super Perfect form) 22,000,000,000 Trunks: 40,000,000 Trunks (SSj): 2,000,000,000 Trunks (SSjG2): 4,400,000,000 Trunks (SSjG3): 8,000,000,000 Trunks (Post Rosat): 80,000,000 Trunks (SSj, Second Rosat): 4,000,000,000 Trunks (SSjG2 Second Rosat): 7,000,000,000 Goku (Post ROSAT): 220,000,000 Goku (FPSSj): 11,000,000,000 Goku (FPSSj weakened): 6,000,000,000 Gohan (Initial base): 8,000,000 Gohan (Base when SSj is achieved): 12,000,000 Gohan (Base during Cell Games) 260,000,000 Gohan (Initial SSj): 360,000,000 Gohan (FPSSj): 13,000,000,000 Gohan (Enraged, SSj2) 30,000,000,000 Gohan (Critical injury, SSj2): 19,000,000,000 Vegeta (second ROSAT): 110,000,000 Vegeta (SSj Second ROSAT): 5,500,000,000 Vegeta (SSjG2, Second ROSAT): 8,250,000,000 Cell Jrs.: 8,500,000,000 Piccolo (Post ROSAT): 5,000,000,000 Krillin: 3,200,000 Tenshinhan: 3,000,000 Tenshinhan (Shin Kikoho): 2,900,000,000 Yamcha: 350,000 18 (Trunks's Timeline): 600,000,000 17 (Trunks's Timeline): 700,000,000 Mr. Satan: 7.5 7 YEAR GAP: Gohan (Base, pre-TB training): 180,000,000 Gohan (SSj, pre training): 9,000,000,000 Gohan (Base, post TB training): 210,000,000 Gohan (SSj, Post training): 10,500,000,000 Gohan (SSj2): 21,000,000,000 Goten (pre-training): 100,000,000 Goten (SSj, pre training): 5,000,000,000 Goten (base, post training): 150,000,000 Goten (SSj, Post training): 7,500,000,000 Trunks (pre training): 110,000,000 Trunks (SSj, pre-training): 5,500,000,000 Trunks (post-training): 180,000,000 Trunks (SSj, post TB training): 9,000,000,000 TENKAICHI BUDOKAI ONWARD: Vegeta (Base): 360,000,000 Vegeta (SSj): 18,000,000,000 Vegeta (SSj2, pre-Majin Powerup): 36,000,000,000 Vegeta (Majin SSj2): 45,000,000,000 Goku (base): 442,500,000 Goku (SSj): 22,500,000,000 Goku, (SSj2): 45,000,000,000 Goku (SSj3): 180,000,000,000 Dabura: 15,000,000,000 Pui Pui: 100,000,000 Yakkon: 380,000,000 Kabito: 900,000,000 Kaioshin: 2,000,000,000 Fat Boo (Initial): 36,000,000,000 Fat Boo (vs Goku): 140,000,000,000 Bobbidi: 1 Spopavich: 100 Yamu: 100 Videl (intro): 15 Videl (TB): 20 Mr. Satan: 12 POST BOO APPEARANCE: Fat Gotenks: 3 Skinny Gotenks: 3 Gotenks (initial): 2,000,000,000 Gotenks (Pre Rosat Super Saiyan): 100,000,000,000 Gotenks (Base, post ROSAT): 10,000,000,000 Gotenks (SSj, Post ROSAT): 500,000,000,000 Gotenks (SSj3): 4,000,000,000,000 Fat Boo (after Split): 60,000,000,000 Skinny Boo: 80,000,000,000 Super Boo (Initial): 1,000,000,000,000 Super Boo (Gotenks Fight): 3,800,000,000,000 Gohan (SSj2, post Z sword training): 100,000,000,000 Ultimate Gohan: 6,000,000,000,000 Bootenks: 8,100,000,000,000 Boo-iccolo: 5,500,000,000,000 Boohan: 11,500,000,000,000 Vegetto: 6,000,000,000 Vegetto (SSj): 300,000,000,000,000 Kid Boo: 182,000,000,000 END OF Z Goku: 70,000,000,000 Oob: 65,000,000,000 Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Oct 26 2014, 12:09 AM.
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 The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him. | |
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| EMIYA | Oct 25 2014, 05:37 PM Post #2 |
"I am the bone of my sword."
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I should probably ask, do you have some sort of thing where a 1.25x or 1.3x gap is somehow "rivaling" for example your gap between Vegeta and Piccolo during the Trunks arc is a 1.25x gap which in many cases would be a pretty significant gap despite the fact that this isn't suggested between Vegeta and Piccolo. They were both suggested to be around the same level of power, give or take a little for one or the other. |
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| * Ketchup Revenge | Oct 25 2014, 11:19 PM Post #3 |
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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To be honest, it's just a blind assumption. Piccolo was clearly stronger than Vegeta a year earlier being that he was able to fight one on one with Second Form Freeza, and when the Trunks era rolled around, Piccolo said that he'd been training over the past year pretty heavily. We don't really know anything about Vegeta's training, and his mission in space seemed more about finding Goku. He didn't really seem to start his intense training until he saw that Trunks was a Super Saiyan too. |
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The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him. | |
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| EMIYA | Oct 25 2014, 11:29 PM Post #4 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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But Vegeta was stronger than Third Form Freeza at the time and its not like Piccolo nor Vegeta had any specialized training at all before. So if anything Vegeta's the one who already has the gap over Piccolo initially so if anyone should be stronger its him. |
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| * Ketchup Revenge | Oct 26 2014, 12:08 AM Post #5 |
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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I hadn't considered that, but we also don't know how strong Vegeta actually was considering that we don't see how he stacks up to third form Freeza. But I will agree that he was probably stronger than Piccolo at that time. Although something worth mentioning is that percentage of advantage isn't consistent when it comes to battle outcome. Vegeta vs Dedoria and SSj Goku vs Freeza were two fights that had roughly the same difference in advantage between characters, and the "sided-ness" of the fights were completely different. Goku and Freeza were roughly even when they fought, while Dedoria was one-shotted easily by Vegeta. But... I'm going to change it. Vegeta: 5,000,000 Piccolo: 4,800,000 |
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The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him. | |
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| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Oct 26 2014, 12:17 AM Post #6 |
魔王子
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I've got a few problems with this. 1. The Artificial Humans are far too close to each other, even disregarding the idea that the amplification of attacks isn't consistent with the Mankankosappo and Kamehameha in the early Saiyajin arc. 2. Cell should be weaker than 18, initially, since Cell isn't considered as big a threat by a number of the characters. 3. 16 should be at the very least equal to Cell. If nothing else, he's probably a very very tiny bit stronger. |
 Battle Power Guide 3DS FC: 2707-1669-7946 XBL/PSN: MaOujiBejita | |
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| + Pyrus | Oct 26 2014, 05:39 AM Post #7 |
 
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+1 for this. Too often people feel obliged to keep these two close in power level when that isn't necessary. It's even more helpful to have them further apart to compensate for Krillin's lack of training post-Cell Games and still keeping the lead power-wise.
What do you make of his confidence against the androids Trunks spoke about? Chapter 337 (DBZ 143), P1.3-4, P2.1 Piccolo: “How about it, Son Goku…Frankly, do you think we can win against this enemy…” Goku: “There’s no way I could know that without even seeing them. I’ll answer once I give it a try.” Piccolo: “You’re pretty carefree…It’s not like I lack confidence…However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind…” When he confronted A20 post-absorptions, that's when he questioned whether they were fighting the real androids, so in order for him to even process that he'd have to have a reason, and that reason would only be sensible if A20 was at least in the realm of power that fit the description from Trunks. With that in mind, Piccolo being this weak doesn't quite make sense with the implications and statements in the narrative.
These two didn't use Grade 2 after their first fight with Cell. They lack the characteristics of it during the Games.
Is there any particular reason you don't have him stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku given the statements from Goku and Piccolo on the matter?
I'd actually have him a bit lower than Goku, or equal to him at best. Vegeta stated Goku could beat him with full power, and Goku agreed; not to mention Goku held a slight advantage in their close quarters fight IMO. Edited by Pyrus, Oct 26 2014, 05:39 AM.
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| * Ketchup Revenge | Oct 26 2014, 07:10 AM Post #8 |
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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I don't agree with your reasoning. Cell had just hatched and had no means of looking for the Androids at that time, therefore there's no reason for him needing to be lower than 18. Not to mention that he'd absorbed an entire town. His just-hatched power would be noticeably lower, and with that, he probably would've been weaker than 18 at that point. Something also worth mentioning is that a human's ki level doesn't simply transfer to him. He's absorbing their physical material and using that to create ki for himself.
They had no means of knowing how strong the androids were, pre or post absorptions; and they had no context at all considering that Trunks simply said that they were strong. I don't really understand how they're supposed to even remotely make an accurate judgement about the Android's powers based on these factors. @The point you made about the Grade 2: Agreed. It was more of a hypothetical number to show how they stack up to FPSSj Goku and Gohan. @The point about Gotenks. Piccolo never says anything about Gotenks being stronger than Goku, and I believe that his muti-trip around the Earth was never supposed to be taken seriously, and was simply an expression of how far ahead of Piccolo he was. It's clearly not an accurate depiction considering that Boohan later took a minute or two to get to Goku and Vegeta, who were only partway around the Earth. If's he's really that far ahead of pre-Rosat Gotenks, than his ability to circumvent the Earth should take miliseconds at the most. In addition to this, we don't see any feats from pre-Rosat SSj Gotenks. I also have this personal theory that their power as Gotenks isn't fully developed until they train as Gotenks. This is why Gotenks's power skyrocketed after Goten and Trunks trained in the ROSAT for only a few weeks time (30 minutes). @Tenshinhan and Krillin: I also have never understood the need to place them so close together. Krillin's got the advantage due to his ki unlock, and there's no reason to put Tenshinhan so high because he has no reason to be. Bringing him up to Namek Era Goku seems completely reasonable to me considering his PL in the Saiyan Arc. Humans aren't Saiyans, and they don't receive zenkai. Krillin's fight with Freeza undoubtedly brought him up higher than the rest, given the context of his unique situation with the ki unlock. |
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The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him. | |
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| + Havoc_Wreaker | Oct 26 2014, 07:58 AM Post #9 |
Popcorn
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just a few notes satan and videl being higher then 10? do u have goku bodb higher then 10 as well and that just makes humans go up as well or are videl and satan generally just higher then bodb goku kid buu> goku? goku was winning the fight until he started getting weaker and the statement saying he was stronger also gohan ssj 2 post z sword seems a bit high, personally i would have him closer to the ssj2 with a decent advantage Edited by Havoc_Wreaker, Oct 26 2014, 08:41 AM.
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| + Pyrus | Oct 26 2014, 08:00 AM Post #10 |
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They knew the androids would be so strong that even Super Saiyan Trunks, a guy strong enough to make mince meat out of Freeza, was absolutely no match for them. That's what they had to go on, so that's what they trained for. The Saiyans and Piccolo all felt they'd reached the bare minimum on that front. It doesn't matter all that much that they couldn't know the exact strength of the androids because there'd still be a minimum point where they could begin to feel comfortable with their strength.
Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4 Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes Goku: “With these two [Goten and Trunks], if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.” Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3 Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!” Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…” Note: Goku actually never told Boo this (apparently he's gone senile in the afterlife). Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8 Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.” Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3 Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.” Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.” Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P9.3-8 Context: Piccolo finally catches up to Gotenks Gotenks: “You’re slow. So you finally got here? Besides circling around the Earth several times, I even took a little afternoon nap. [ ] Fuffuffuh…So you can’t tell just from my speed just now? My super-duper incredible power…! …Which is to say that the test is over, and I’m going to go take care of that annoying Majin Boo right away…” *Gotenks takes off* Piccolo: “H-hey, you idiot! Kuh…! Wh-what a s***head…H-he already has only 1 minute left that he can stay merged. That dimwhit…!” Goku said Gotenks would be stronger than him, and definitely enough to take care of Boo, more than once. When Gotenks formed as a Super Saiyan, Piccolo never once questioned his strength (contrary to how he immediately said Base Gotenks would get mauled by Boo), and instead commended him for his power and went straight to asking how his speed stacked up, which is understandable considering the previous two failed attempts. After Gotenks showed off and Piccolo caught up to him, Piccolo's only concern wasn't Gotenks' strength, but the fact that he only had one minute left of Fusion time. He didn't need to say "yes, you're everything Goku said you'd be" in direct words because his absence of doubt is good enough. On top of that, if Gotenks really wasn't enough to at least take out Boo, one would have to wonder why his only concern after the Earth-circling feat was time and not power. It's a bit shaky, but there's also a point later on when Evil Boo forms where Gotenks' status is implied to be on top. Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6 Context: after Boo transforms into evil Boo Piccolo: "...Have you noticed? ...This change in Majin Boo's ki ...He's changed...All due to some idiotic Earthlings...He's become pure evil, and his body has become more suited toward battle...Th-this...this..." Kuririn: "Wha...What?...D-don't tell me you're saying this is bad!? ...It's al-alright! We've got the squirts' Fusion! Goku said that right? That Fusion was the strongest!" Dende: "..." Piccolo: "...That'd be nice, but..." It could be argued Krillin was simply reiterating what Goku said earlier, but at the same time, he sensed Gotenks for himself. If Gotenks really wasn't enough, he should know. Goku's words went uncontested for the rest of the manga, so I don't know what the reason would be for placing Gotenks below him. At worst Gotenks is implied and supported by statements to be enough to deal with Fat Boo. His lack of feats is unfortunate, but he does have statements on his side. |
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| + Havoc_Wreaker | Oct 26 2014, 08:40 AM Post #11 |
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Popcorn
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dont want to start a goku vs gotenk debate but i will say this, i think the way the story was headed that it was retconned i think AT intended for goku to be weaker then gotenks and fat buu but the story dragged on as such with so many incarnations of buu that AT want to rectify the situation by making goku stronger but not stronger then gotenks and gohan just him generally stronger and AT shows a bit of this in the kid buu fight where goku says he in fact could have beat fat buu but didnt wanna which makes ya question if gotenks was really stronger then goku(prerosat) in the end |
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