Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Rotation Advertisements



We hope you enjoy your visit to this forum.


If you are reading this then it means you are currently browsing the forum as a guest, we donít limit any of the content posted from guests however if you join, you will have the ability to join the discussions! We are always happy to see new faces at this forum and we would like to hear your opinion, so why not register now? It doesnít take long and you can get posting right away.


Click here to Register!

If you are having difficulties validating your account please email us at admin@dbzf.co.uk


If you're already a member please log in to your account:

Username:   Password:
[Fall 2014 Budokai] SSJ2 CG Gohan vs. SSJ2 Pre-Majin Vegeta; lucrowe vs SuperSaiyan1993
Topic Started: Oct 20 2014, 05:10 PM (2,161 Views)
I Banged Sam
Member Avatar


May this epic battle begin!
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
+ SuperSaiyan1993
Member Avatar
Super Saiyan among Super Saiyans

All right, I will be arguing that SSJ2 CG Gohan is more powerful than SSJ2 Pre-Majin Vegeta. I am going to delineate my main points here. When my opponent has had a chance, he can outline his main counter points.


(1) Piccolo's Uncontradicted Statement

When witnessing Majin Vegeta display his power against Fat Buu, Piccolo remarks that Majin Vegeta might be stronger than CG Gohan. Now, Vegeta accepted the help of Babidi to match Goku's power. Vegeta has never accepted anyone's help before. The gap between Vegeta and Goku had to be big/definitive enough to warrant this massively uncharacteristic act. If Piccolo is uncertain whether Majin Vegeta is stronger than CG Gohan, then it is unlikely that Pre Majin is stronger. Importantly, this statement is never contradicted by anyone in the series.

(2) Vegeta Acknowledges Gohan's Rage


When Goku is giving Gohan advice on how to deal with Dabura, he tells him that if he fights enraged, no one could stop him. Regarding Gohan's rage, Vegeta himself acknowledges something along the lines of: Who knows what would happen if Gohan snapped? Vegeta has seen Gohan's rage firsthand. Even after acquiring new power from 7 years of training and a Majin power-up, Vegeta still regards Gohan's rage as a formidable force.

(3) Vegeta's Statement to Goku about CG Gohan

Before fighting Goku, Vegeta remarks that at least Goku is stronger than CG Gohan. Admittedly, this statement is ambiguous. On one hand, it could mean that he is simply taunting Goku by picking a fighter who is supposedly weaker than his Pre Majin power. On the other hand, it could simply be Vegeta declaring that his new power is stronger than CG Gohan's as well. Regardless of how you interpret this, CG Gohan is being used as the measuring stick of power. Usually in DBZ, people who are less powerful aren't given much credit anymore. This correlates with Piccolo's statement about how Majin Vegeta's power is comparable with CG Gohan's.

Edited by SuperSaiyan1993, Oct 20 2014, 05:46 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
lucrowe
Member Avatar


Sorry it's taken so long for me to get to this. Been flat out at work, I'm actually typing this in my lunch break :p So I won't be able to provide depth in my argument so I'll have to keep things simple. ANYWAY. On with it.

Regarding your third point. I'm not sure if we were looking at the same segment, but it seemed to me like Vegeta stated that either him or Goku could beat Cell as they were in that point in time. That's the impression I got from the discussion, and my impression also leads me to believe that not only could Goku and Vegeta rival Cell's power, they could surpass it and win the hypothetical battle. I didn't see anything about Vegeta saying they could rival CG Gohan, it was more about rivalling/surpassing Cell.

Now to find the truth behind that particular discussion, you'd have to ask who was stronger out of SSJ2 CG Gohan and SP Cell, which unless I'm mistaken; their powers are more or less equal but with a slight advantage in Cell's favour. So, I'm only left to assume that if Vegeta (though self-proclaimed) can power up enough to beat Cell, he'd be able to power up enough to beat Gohan. And if they were locked in a base battle, if Vegeta has more power than Gohan transformed, you can really only assume his base power would be more impressive.

And for your second point, why wouldn't Vegeta acknowledge Gohans rage powers...? He's seen Gohan take down enemies hundreds of times stronger than Gohan e.g. Freeza. Vegeta would be silly to think down on the possibilities of Gohans power, especially seeing Gohan reach his highest limit against Cell, and then Vegeta believing that at this point in time he too could beat Cell... Doesn't that kinda suggest to you that Vegeta is aware of Gohans rage powers, but doesn't seem to mind assuming he's stronger than the CG Gohan? Allot of that could be written off to Vegeta's pride, but when the point is painfully obvious that Vegeta is inferior he's been known to swallow his pride and admit defeat. Didn't seem like this case to me...
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
+ SuperSaiyan1993
Member Avatar
Super Saiyan among Super Saiyans

Defense of Third Point

lucrowe
 
Regarding your third point. I'm not sure if we were looking at the same segment, but it seemed to me like Vegeta stated that either him or Goku could beat Cell as they were in that point in time. That's the impression I got from the discussion, and my impression also leads me to believe that not only could Goku and Vegeta rival Cell's power, they could surpass it and win the hypothetical battle. I didn't see anything about Vegeta saying they could rival CG Gohan, it was more about rivalling/surpassing Cell.

Now to find the truth behind that particular discussion, you'd have to ask who was stronger out of SSJ2 CG Gohan and SP Cell, which unless I'm mistaken; their powers are more or less equal but with a slight advantage in Cell's favour. So, I'm only left to assume that if Vegeta (though self-proclaimed) can power up enough to beat Cell


^^ Vegeta's statement has nothing to do with Cell honestly. He tells Goku that "at least you are more powerful than Gohan when he fought Cell" because Gohan was still relevant enough to be used as a benchmark. Cell isn't mentioned at all, and therefore he isn't really relevant. Also, since Vegeta uses Gohan instead of Cell as the power benchmark, it is likely that Cell was weaker than CG Gohan.

Now, as aforementioned, this statement is ambiguous by itself. However, when taken together with Piccolo's statement (point 1), it means something else entirely. Piccolo is uncertain whether Majin Vegeta is stronger than CG Gohan "he might be stronger than Gohan". Since from Piccolo's uncontradicted statement, Majin Vegeta is comparable with CG Gohan, Vegeta's statement can very well be a statement of accomplishment.

This statement "At least you're stronger than your son when he fought Cell" can very well mean this:
So it seems that I'm not the only one who has finally surpassed CG Gohan. This will be interesting.

Defense of Second Point

lucrowe
 
And for your second point, why wouldn't Vegeta acknowledge Gohans rage powers...? He's seen Gohan take down enemies hundreds of times stronger than Gohan e.g. Freeza. Vegeta would be silly to think down on the possibilities of Gohans power, especially seeing Gohan reach his highest limit against Cell, and then Vegeta believing that at this point in time he too could beat Cell... Doesn't that kinda suggest to you that Vegeta is aware of Gohans rage powers, but doesn't seem to mind assuming he's stronger than the CG Gohan? Allot of that could be written off to Vegeta's pride, but when the point is painfully obvious that Vegeta is inferior he's been known to swallow his pride and admit defeat. Didn't seem like this case to me...


^^ Vegeta's acknowledgement of the power of Gohan's rage is a viable point when the context of how he said this is taken into account. When Vegeta says "there is no telling what might happen if Gohan snapped", he is genuinely uncertain in a way that is almost hesitant. The way he delivers the line with that mark of wonder implies that he still holds CG Gohan in considerable esteem. Admittedly, I don't know if this same mood is conveyed in the manga.

One Additional Point

I find it interesting that you have yet to say anything about my first point -- Piccolo's uncontradicted statement that compares Majin Vegeta with CG Gohan. Any thoughts about this, my friend? It is an important aspect, to be sure.
Edited by SuperSaiyan1993, Oct 23 2014, 06:04 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
lucrowe
Member Avatar


I have nothing to day to the first point because I honestly can't remember piccolo ever saying that :p so I'm leaving that one alone because of there was more to it I don't know! I'm not avoiding it, I just don't remember it so I have nothing to add to that.

As for vegetas words, I honestly remember things a little different, but mind you I'm going by the anime. Still roughly means the same thing whether he was talking about cell or gohan because they were more or less even when they had the final bout, so either way I think my point stands on its own legs

If vegeta is using gohan as the bench mark, Vegeta seems fairly confident in the fact that though he understands gohan was stronger then, gohans former power is inferior compared to the likes of goku and himself. Something I do remember from the anime was vegeta saying that he and goku were stronger now than cell was then.

As for gohans rage, I'm not willing to accept that as evidence in this argument to be honest. That was said in the Buu saga, and it was said about gohan from the Buu saga! I really don't see how that relates to CG gohan because he isn't the one vegeta is talking about. He holds gohan in high esteem, and damn right he should! Gohan managed to do what vegeta himself couldn't. So when he talks about how gohans rage powers are something to be revered it seems prefecture just, because gohans rage took him to a level that vegeta (at that point in the cell games) could not do! But remember, gohans ssj2 was gohans rage maxed out in that point during the cell games, so gohan wouldn't have gone much higher than he did in the final Kamehameha. If vegeta is willingly comparing himself to gohan back then, and also saying he and goku could beat cell, that to me is pretty obvious that vegeta could now beat CG gohan if it could happen.
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
+ SuperSaiyan1993
Member Avatar
Super Saiyan among Super Saiyans

lucrowe
 
As for vegetas words, I honestly remember things a little different, but mind you I'm going by the anime. Still roughly means the same thing whether he was talking about cell or gohan because they were more or less even when they had the final bout, so either way I think my point stands on its own legs

If vegeta is using gohan as the bench mark, Vegeta seems fairly confident in the fact that though he understands gohan was stronger then, gohans former power is inferior compared to the likes of goku and himself. Something I do remember from the anime was vegeta saying that he and goku were stronger now than cell was then.


How does your point relate to the debate directly though? Saying that Majin Vegeta is stronger than CG Gohan does nothing to support that Pre-Majin Vegeta is stronger than CG Gohan. What did you think about my interpretation of Vegeta's line as a statement of accomplishment? If you take that line and correlate it with Piccolo's line, it makes sense. By the way, you should look up Piccolo's line on youtube; it might be helpful :p They don't have the original version (Japanese) online though. I own the season, so when I get the chance, I'll post the original line that Piccolo says verbatim.

lucrowe
 
As for gohans rage, I'm not willing to accept that as evidence in this argument to be honest. That was said in the Buu saga, and it was said about gohan from the Buu saga! I really don't see how that relates to CG gohan because he isn't the one vegeta is talking about. He holds gohan in high esteem, and damn right he should! Gohan managed to do what vegeta himself couldn't. So when he talks about how gohans rage powers are something to be revered it seems prefecture just, because gohans rage took him to a level that vegeta (at that point in the cell games) could not do! But remember, gohans ssj2 was gohans rage maxed out in that point during the cell games, so gohan wouldn't have gone much higher than he did in the final Kamehameha. If vegeta is willingly comparing himself to gohan back then, and also saying he and goku could beat cell, that to me is pretty obvious that vegeta could now beat CG gohan if it could happen.


Again, we're not talking about Majin Vegeta. Contextually, this is supposed to show that Pre-Majin Vegeta still holds CG Gohan in high esteem. If this comment was said about the weaker Buu saga Gohan, then it speaks volumes about CG Gohan. Admittedly, this is more supplementary than anything. Regardless, it has a decent point.

EDIT: Found in Piccolo's line verbatim
Original (Japanese) Version: "Such inordinate power ... As when Gohan fought against Cell ..... no, even greater! How.. however, that same Gohan was himself done in by Majin Boo!"

a) It takes a while for Piccolo to realize that Majin Vegeta's power is greater than that of CG Gohan
b) Even after this, Piccolo is uncertain if the power difference is that significant to fight someone who just killed Gohan. Remember, Piccolo is under the impression that Gohan has the same power as his CG self (for some reason)



Well, you made a nice counterargument against my points. Would you like to make an argument about how Pre-Majin Vegeta is stronger than CG Gohan, my friend?

Edited by SuperSaiyan1993, Oct 24 2014, 11:49 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
lucrowe
Member Avatar


SuperSaiyan1993
Oct 24 2014, 01:51 PM
lucrowe
 
As for vegetas words, I honestly remember things a little different, but mind you I'm going by the anime. Still roughly means the same thing whether he was talking about cell or gohan because they were more or less even when they had the final bout, so either way I think my point stands on its own legs

If vegeta is using gohan as the bench mark, Vegeta seems fairly confident in the fact that though he understands gohan was stronger then, gohans former power is inferior compared to the likes of goku and himself. Something I do remember from the anime was vegeta saying that he and goku were stronger now than cell was then.


How does your point relate to the debate directly though? Saying that Majin Vegeta is stronger than CG Gohan does nothing to support that Pre-Majin Vegeta is stronger than CG Gohan. What did you think about my interpretation of Vegeta's line as a statement of accomplishment? If you take that line and correlate it with Piccolo's line, it makes sense. By the way, you should look up Piccolo's line on youtube; it might be helpful :p They don't have the original version (Japanese) online though. I own the season, so when I get the chance, I'll post the original line that Piccolo says verbatim.

lucrowe
 
As for gohans rage, I'm not willing to accept that as evidence in this argument to be honest. That was said in the Buu saga, and it was said about gohan from the Buu saga! I really don't see how that relates to CG gohan because he isn't the one vegeta is talking about. He holds gohan in high esteem, and damn right he should! Gohan managed to do what vegeta himself couldn't. So when he talks about how gohans rage powers are something to be revered it seems prefecture just, because gohans rage took him to a level that vegeta (at that point in the cell games) could not do! But remember, gohans ssj2 was gohans rage maxed out in that point during the cell games, so gohan wouldn't have gone much higher than he did in the final Kamehameha. If vegeta is willingly comparing himself to gohan back then, and also saying he and goku could beat cell, that to me is pretty obvious that vegeta could now beat CG gohan if it could happen.


Again, we're not talking about Majin Vegeta. Contextually, this is supposed to show that Pre-Majin Vegeta still holds CG Gohan in high esteem. If this comment was said about the weaker Buu saga Gohan, then it speaks volumes about CG Gohan. Admittedly, this is more supplementary than anything. Regardless, it has a decent point.

EDIT: Found in Piccolo's line verbatim
Original (Japanese) Version: "Such inordinate power ... As when Gohan fought against Cell ..... no, even greater! How.. however, that same Gohan was himself done in by Majin Boo!"

a) It takes a while for Piccolo to realize that Majin Vegeta's power is greater than that of CG Gohan
b) Even after this, Piccolo is uncertain if the power difference is that significant to fight someone who just killed Gohan. Remember, Piccolo is under the impression that Gohan has the same power as his CG self (for some reason)



Well, you made a nice counterargument against my points. Would you like to make an argument about how Pre-Majin Vegeta is stronger than CG Gohan, my friend?

When I was describing what Vegeta said, I'm 99% certain it was before he went Majin. It was said when they were waiting for Gohan to fight the next opponent on babidi's ship (being dabura). You're the one who brought Majin Vegeta into it when you were describing how Piccolo was comparing Majin Vegeta to CG Gohan. My point was that Vegeta was using Gohan as the benchmark of power before he turned Majin, and openly admitting that he and Goku could beat Cell. That, and I think 7 years of training under his belt would be plenty of time to surpass Gohan's prior level. Mind you, that last statement is not fact, it's just what I personally think.

Still haven't seen the Piccolo thing yet :p I do have the original japanese dub at home, I just haven't watched it yet. I watch the english dub because I like it better, and I hate reading subtitles. Nothing like that was ever said in the english dub, but that being said I do understand that next to the manga the japanese sub is the next best place to gather evidence from. So I'm willing to accept your point as evidence purely because I trust you're not lying to me :p

I really have nothing much else to add. I'm standing firm in my belief that pre MVegeta's words about how he and Goku could beat Cell in that day and age is plenty enough to suggest that they could beat Gohan as well. If Gohan was stronger than Cell at the end of the day (which is debatable because if not for Vegetas help Gohan may not have walked away from that one) I don't think it would have been by very much. If Vegeta seems confident he could take Cell down pre majin, then I couldn't see why he would be less powerful than CG Gohan. In fact, after 7 years to improve on his abilities and knowing how Vegeta trains, I have little doubt in the fact that Vegeta should have reached that level of power by then.

I'm going to leave this as my closing statement! I'm sorry I haven't been around much. I've been super busy with work and my case load has gone through the roof since term 4 of school started. I do believe you argued better than I did here, I was confident walking into this match up but now I'm not so sure because you've had time to give this much more thought than I have and really study up on it :p I'm really going by memory here, and it's hazy to say the least. Unless you have something new to add, I think it's time to let the judges have a look at this and see who they think was right?
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
+ SuperSaiyan1993
Member Avatar
Super Saiyan among Super Saiyans

I have one last move. I will counter your last point. After this, I have nothing else to add. So if lucrowe wants to challenge this counter, he most certainly can. If lucrowe has finished his deliberations, then I will be done as well after this post.

Here is the point I will counter:

lucrowe
 
It was said when they were waiting for Gohan to fight the next opponent on babidi's ship (being dabura). My point was that Vegeta was using Gohan as the benchmark of power before he turned Majin, and openly admitting that he and Goku could beat Cell


After a while, I was able find that scene -- waiting for Gohan's next opponent (dabura) to show up

The actual line Vegeta says is the following: "Gohan has been far too busy going to school and going out on dates to do any serious training. Both of us are more powerful than he is in his condition."

The "he" Vegeta is referring to is Babidi Saga Gohan, Not Cell.

Closing Statement (If Lucrowe would like to continue the debate, then this can be paused)

In summary, I argued that CG Gohan was stronger than Pre-Majin Vegeta largely on the basis of Piccolo's uncontradicted statement that Majin Vegeta wasn't significantly stronger than CG Gohan:

Original (Japanese) Version: "Such inordinate power ... As when Gohan fought against Cell ..... no, even greater! How.. however, that same Gohan was himself done in by Majin Boo!"

a) It takes a while for Piccolo to realize that Majin Vegeta's power is greater than that of CG Gohan -- attests to there being a small gap

b) Even after this, Piccolo is uncertain if the power difference is that significant to fight someone who just killed Gohan. Remember, Piccolo is under the impression that Gohan has the same power as his CG self as he says" the same Gohan"

Since the statement is uncontradicted, there is little ground on which to argue against it. Furthermore, there is no instance in which anyone actually says Pre-Majin Vegeta is stronger than CG Gohan.

So that's it. Once lucrowe responds to either my email or this post, we'll know if we're ready to hand it off to the judges. lucrowe, this has been a great debate!

EDIT: Now that I recall, lucrowe said in a prior email that we should finish the debate if I didn't have anything new to add. My last point wasn't new; it was just a counter. So, I think we're ready to hand it over to you, judges.
Edited by SuperSaiyan1993, Nov 2 2014, 11:33 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
lucrowe
Member Avatar


Yeah I'm done mate. I really can't add anything else without repeating myself so I'm ready for the judges to take this one. Thanks for letting me be a part of this guys :)

SuperSaiyan1993 you were fantastic, and very respectful with your posts and counters. Never once belittled my opinions and points which I am very grateful for. Thanks for being such a good sport!
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
I Banged Sam
Member Avatar


Great debate guys.
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
+ Yusuke
Member Avatar


Nicely done guys,

This particular topic happens to be one of my favorite DB debate topics so I enjoyed reading this debate. Given that this is both of your first formal debates on DBZF, I must say i'm impressed with the both of you. With that being said however, here is my Pro's and Con's for the two of you.

lucrowe

Pro: You managed to poke holes in SS1993's 2nd point about the rage boost and your structuring was done well.
Con: Too many assumptions done on your part and there's a lack of original source in your argument.

SuperSaiyan1993

Pro: You structuring, like lucrowe was done great and you had tons of evidence to back up what you were saying (also had quotes to support your argument)
Con: Your point about the rage boost was a little shaky as that could very well apply to Gohan's rage in general as lucrowe said.

Now for my decision,

SuperSaiyan1993: 8.5
lucrowe: 7

Good job to the both of you once again. Super Saiyan and TheDoc should have their decisions done soon hopefully.
Edited by Yusuke, Nov 5 2014, 03:11 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
lucrowe
Member Avatar


Congratulations SSJ1993 :) I didn't think I'd win this one. As pointed out in my cons description there were just too many assumptions. I knew I was making them, but to be honest I needed to make them to further illustrate my point. They were good points (I thought) but in a factual argument I understand the only way to win is to rely on the facts. I understand and accept the outcome.

Nicely played 1993!!!! Good luck in your next round. I'll be rooting for ya!
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
+ Yusuke
Member Avatar


lucrowe
Nov 6 2014, 12:07 AM
Congratulations SSJ1993 :) I didn't think I'd win this one. As pointed out in my cons description there were just too many assumptions. I knew I was making them, but to be honest I needed to make them to further illustrate my point. They were good points (I thought) but in a factual argument I understand the only way to win is to rely on the facts. I understand and accept the outcome.

Nicely played 1993!!!! Good luck in your next round. I'll be rooting for ya!
Other 2 judges haven't voted yet lol.

I'll PM them and ask what's going on.
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
I Banged Sam
Member Avatar


Give me like a day I'm sick as f*** right now.
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
+ Yusuke
Member Avatar


Alright, don't sweat it then.
Offline Profile Quote Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
DealsFor.me - The best sales, coupons, and discounts for you
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Debate Room · Next Topic »

//