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|[Fall 2014 Budokai] Namek arc- power scaling; Professor Gohan vs. TheAce|
|Tweet Topic Started: Oct 18 2014, 04:52 PM (1,529 Views)|
|Professor Gohan||Oct 18 2014, 04:52 PM Post #1|
Edited by Professor Gohan, Oct 18 2014, 05:24 PM.
|TheACE||Oct 19 2014, 01:07 AM Post #2|
The Last GT Fighter
Ok I'll kick this off. I think I'll break it into the initial phases of the Namek Invasion, then to the Pre Ginyu to Post Ginyu Battle and finally we'll go to the assault on Frieza.
Bulma < Dende < Avg Namekian =/< Guru < Avg Frieza Soldier < Krillin </= Gohan < Avg Namekian Warrior << Krillin (Unlock Potential) </= Cui = Gohan (Unlock Potential) < Dodoria < Zarbon < Vegeta < Monster Zarbon < Vegeta (Post Zenkai) <Nail < Frieza (1st Form)
Ginyu Force Strikes
Dende < Guru < Krillin </= Gohan < Guldo < Krillin (Unlock Potential) </= Gohan (Unlock Potential) < Goku (Ginyu's Body) =/< Ginyu (Goku's Body) < Vegeta (Recoome Duel) = Krillin (Unlock Potential, Post Sensu Bean) </= Gohan (Unlock Potential, Post Sensu Bean) < Nail = Recoome </= Burter < Jeice << Vegeta (Post Sensu Bean) < Goku (Landing on Namek) = Ginyu (Supressed) < Ginyu (Full Power) < Kaioken x 2 Goku << Frieza (1st Form)
Duel with Frieza
Dende <<<< Nail < Piccolo (Weighted) < Piccolo (Weights off) = Krillin (Rested) << Gohan (Rested) < Krillin (Unlock Potential) < Gohan (Unlock Potential) < Vegeta (Supressed, Rested) < Vegeta (Full Power) = Frieza (1st Form) < Krillin (Post Dende Heal) < Gohan (Post Dende Heal) </= Gohan (Hidden Power/Saiyan Rage) < Frieza (2nd Form, Supressed) < Piccolo (Sync'd With Nail) = Frieza (2nd Form, Full Power, Anime Only) < Frieza (Final Form, 1%, Anime Only) = Goku (Supressed Post Healing Tank, Anime Only) < Piccolo (Sync'd with Nail, Weights Off) ~ Gohan (Saiyan Rage Boost #2) < Frieza (3rd Form) = Piccolo (Sync'd With Nail, Post Dende Heal) </= Vegeta (Post Dende Heal) < Goku (Post Healing Tank) < Frieza (Final Form, Intial) < Goku (Kaioken) <<< Frieza (Final Form, Powered Up, 25%) = Goku (Kaioken Times Ten) << Goku (Kaioken Times Twenty) = Frieza (Final Form, Powered Up, 50%) < Goku (Kaioken Times Twenty Super Kamehameha Wave) < Goku (Solar System Spirit Bomb) < Frieza (Final Form, Powered Up, 66%), Frieza (Final Form, Powered Up, 75%), Frieza (100% Final Form) = Super Saiyan Son Goku (80%) << Frieza (Final Form, Anime Only "Theoretical 120%") ~</= Super Saiyan Son Goku (100%)
Bulma < Chiaotzu < Yamcha < Tien Shinhan <<` Krillin < Gohan < Piccolo (Sync'd with Nail) ~ Vegeta < Goku
I make my assertion based on the 7th Daizenshu, "the Evolution of Goku's Power Level,", The Original Dragon Ball Part II manga, Seasons 2 and 3 or the Dragon Ball Z anime, and finally The V-Jump Manga bumpers (For the Pre-Frieza Prep)
|TheACE||Oct 22 2014, 06:32 PM Post #3|
The Last GT Fighter
|Gohan is Chunin Exam Sasuke, making us wait for the show.|
|Professor Gohan||Oct 25 2014, 03:39 PM Post #4|
I'm sorry for my lateness, I got delayed with the confusion in our PMs.
Since we have three different parts from the entire Namek arc to debate, I'm going to start by countering points I disagree with in the Landing portion first. Once we come to a conclusion on everything in that, then we can move to Ginyu Force Strikes next, and then Duel with Frieza. Is that all right?
I'll start with my counter arguments in Landing.
Gohan = Krillin. Your placement of Gohan and Krillin seems to have them equal or at least Gohan superior with some sort of advantage.
I directly place them at exact equals nearing 1,500 because of what Zarbon's scouter sensed. They are both getting read the same going by his scouter.
Gohan = Krillin
According to this (Landing) chain - at least within some time when both Gohan and Krillin went through their ritual, to the beginning of their fight against the Ginyu Force - you placed Gohan at 18,000 points (equal to Kui). You also have Kui "equal to" Krillin.
Kui > Gohan & Krillin (post-Ritual).
Gohan's and Krillin's placement wouldn't be the case in your chain. I disagree because midway during their fight with Gurd, Jheese scanned both with his scouter, and obtained a reading of them both barely passing 10,000 points.
Gohan and Krillin - 10k
In addition, even though you do place Kui ">/=" over Krillin, I still disagree with how you placed those two:
I think a direct ">" should be used instead of a ">/=", to be more precise. That's because there would be a 1.75-1.8x gap between them using their given battle power numbers from the manga, and perhaps even from the anime:
Kui - 18,000
Krillin - 10,000-10,250
Herms's Strength Checker from Kanzenshuu DBZ forum: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15488
I beg to disagree with this chain.
Zarbon >~ Dodoria
Zarbon and Dodoria shouldn't be too far apart where they get a ">" gap between them instead of a ">~" gap, which the latter is what I use.
I personally have Zarbon at 21,000 and Dodoria at 20,000, which would range a gap of 1.05x or so. The "nearness in power" gap would look like Goku vs. Nappa when he's at full-power and mentally stable.
Also, even the Daizenshuu 7 placed Zarbon and Dodoria a 1,000 points apart, which is equivalent to my said 1.05x "close" gap.
Spoiler: click to toggle
Here's my final chain:
Zarbon >~ Dodoria >~ Kui > Gohan (post-ritual, beginning of Ginyu duel) = Krillin (post-ritual, beginning of Ginyu duel) >> Gohan (arrival on Namek) = Krillin (arrival on Namek)
Edited by Professor Gohan, Oct 25 2014, 03:46 PM.
|TheACE||Oct 26 2014, 11:24 PM Post #5|
The Last GT Fighter
And now we have a fight on our hands. Good warm up round, let's get to it!
For Gohan v Krillin. Granted they were stated to be 1500, I cannot debate a fact. However it should be noted that 1500 isn't their full power, merely a base. As cited in Evolution of Goku's Power Level, Krillin's official level during the Saiyan Saga was already higher than that http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140311111754/dragonball/images/d/d9/Power_level_chart.jpg
A solid 1770. Therefore, while in that specific fight they both jumped their power up to 1500, it should be noted that their power levels do not max out there. Now the original Manga gives us very little more insight to their powers from that because they must stay hidden during the rest of the arc. It's likely they used it just to defeat the two soldiers. As cited here Krillin gave Gohan the order to continue supressing his energy and he was allowed to release it once Krillin had a good read on their Ki, which wasn't that great. Further more, the image training suggests that there are a few more advantages that Gohan has on Krillin. Krillin had a clear edge in techniques, skill and style, but ultimately Gohan's power just edged him out. Not significantly, but just enough to make it count as seen in the video here. (Also, little fan service bonus, got a cut with Bulma in her underwear lol). So while upper limits aren't explicitly disclosed, they are still a bit higher than posted.
To protect my bold claim that Gohan does have the edge on Krillin in the Unlocked Potential State, I'll further cite this:
Official Daizenshuu mats put him at a solid 1000 over, giving him an edge in post, showing a level of 14,000 for Son Jr there and 13,000 for the Mack Daddy of all Monks. Still not a huge gap, and probably not worth the >/=, and even that is a touch subjective as the signs <, >, and ~ have no assigned numerical meaning or percentage. I suppose a power level list might have been more accurate this go around, but I digress. Granted Jeice does state some surprise that the tag team of Gohan and Krillin could have power levels in excess of 10,000, he doesn't definitively state either way. All he says for sure is "Over 10,000." And while it would be outlandish to assume it's radically over 10,000, it's still subjective. He could be impressed with a number of over 15,000, but still not be threatened by it given that his power level is in excess of 40,000. In context, the statement reinforces the stereotype common among Frieza's men that a quick glance at a power level determines the outcome of the fight. He also reads those levels while Krillin and Gohan are frozen and without an aura, indicating they're currently limited. Further more the quote is translated "Who'da thought? Those little runts have a power level over 10,000!" Not necesarily meaning that they're dead on AT 10,000. Jeice makes a mistake later in the Arc believing that Goku's power level is exactly 5,000 and says it aloud. The over could be as low as 10,001 or as high as 19,999, but it's just another way of saying "Wow those two are pretty tough for guys that small." Given the ambiguity of the statement, I assert that it is safe to use the Daizenshuu to clear up any discrepancy.
Regarding Cui (Kui, Kiwi, the hell his name is, Vegeta's rival), yeah I dropped the ball on that one. I think that was a dub line that said Gohan was about as tough as Vegeta on Earth. So in light of official power levels, I'll have to slightly revise my statement.
That said, Daizenshuu 7 gives us this from the power level section of it's characters:
Kewi: 18,000 [p.63]
Zarbon (normal form): about 23,000 [p.69]
Dodoria: 22,000 [p.91]
Piccolo (merged with Nail): over 1,000,000 [p.102]
Freeza’s Reconnaissance Team: less than 1,500 [p.105]
Meaning Dodoria's 4000 point advantage is more than enough to give him the hard edge on Kui, but a 2000 point deficet is enough for Vegeta to still somehow obliterate him in a single combination, but not Zarbon. Implicating that even a mere 1000 points is enough to hold a solid, if not a hard edge on an opponenent. Diminishing the use of ~s in reference to Frieza's elites to stylistic choices rather than a hard and fast rule. Therefore i reinforce my chain as such:
Bulma < Dende < Avg Namekian =/< Guru < Avg Frieza Soldier < Krillin </= Gohan < Avg Namekian Warrior << Krillin (Unlock Potential) </=Gohan (Unlock Potential) < Cui < Dodoria < Zarbon < Vegeta < Monster Zarbon < Vegeta (Post Zenkai) <Nail < Frieza (1st Form)
|Professor Gohan||Nov 7 2014, 06:19 PM Post #6|
That sheet isn't 100% reliable. That sheet has teen Goku with a 910 battle power, Popo with over a 1,000, Nappa with a battle power of 4,000, and others with battle readings that should not be/were clearly not the case when reading the manga. Also, if anything, that number for Krillin is the number for his attack he used. Just like how come Goku and Gohan have their respective numbers on that sheet.
You're argument is still that Gohan has the advantage over Krillin.
If anything, Krillin has the advantage over Gohan since Krillin held the power advantage in the previous arc (with little/petty training in between), and he was shown to be shedding weights later on in the Namek arc as well. Nothing about Gohan, and all we have is that he was really close to Krillin in power. That could be inferior or at his level since I have the visuals in the manga to help support that, and even that quote I provided earlier. I can't be convinced that Gohan had a power advantage at that point in time.
Like, how come exactly, though?
I won't let you have "Gohan has the advantage over Krillin" because there's nothing to support that.
-The image training in the manga is short. Yes, Krillin was shown to have huffed one or two more times than Gohan did, but so what. That doesn't mean anything, especially since we weren't shown what Gohan did at that exact moment before Krillin recovered.
Gohan complimented Krillin on his moves, then it's end of scene. Neither of those say or show that one is stronger than the other. That scene/couple panels ain't that big of a deal. And it'd be better to go off what happened in the manga instead of the anime since we're getting technical about occurrences like that.
So they may not be equals, but there's nothing to help you that Gohan had whatever kind of advantage... More helps me that Krillin had the advantage, if they weren't equals like said and implied until their power-up.
Well, to me, this looked like the type of system you wanted to use, to clearly show me how you place everyone. Of course I think that's how you're running things since you do have this later on in your chain:
How else am I supposed to think? Especially when we're debating an arc that uses provided numbers. And honestly, you're also making it difficult for me by not being specific and giving two different kinds of gaps, "~<" and "=" between characters, and not giving me an exact gap so I don't have to try and argue against two different beliefs you can work with, at me.
That's just to explain why I was doing what I was doing.
Anyway, I will admit that the Daiz sheet would be the best route to go since nothing points them out as equals (post-ritual). Nothing more I can go against that.
But like your first sheet, it can't always be right, especially when the feats and statements in the manga clearly say otherwise.
"Somehow" is the keyword. Somehow doesn't make sense because it isn't an explanation for the matter, therefore going by what was given to us in the original read would be the best route to take. That is especially since the Namek arc consists of more battle power numbers, along with gaps and the more effort put into them than any of the later arcs.
Yes the Daiz gave Kui, Dodoria, and Zarbon numbers that weren't flat out stated in the original read, but we still have combat feats that shine more than a set of (possible) random numbers given to the said list of characters.
Firstly, here are my numbers for the set of characters once again:
Vegeta (earth) - 18,000
Kui - 18,000
Vegeta (post- earth fight) - 24,000
Elegant Zarbon - 21,000 (21,052)
Dodoria - 20,000
Going by your own numbers you stick to, Vegeta vs. Dodoria would equate to 1.09x gap.
That said gap of yours is only 0.03 points away from looking like Goku (earth, 8,000) and Nappa (under control, powered up) fighting a closer match than when before the latter fully calmed down and controlled his full power. That's around the same time Goku expressed that he could be fighting Nappa all day. So we know Nappa is close to his own power:
Your gap of Vegeta vs. Dodoria doesn't look anything close to that, especially when we know Vegeta can badly damage Dodoria with a single punch, and can obliterate him with a single ki attack, which is pretty much a stomp. In other words, it would work out better as a 1.2x gap.
It also doesn't look close to the gap Vegeta (Namek, post-nap) vs. Freeza (first form) looked like:
At that point, Vegeta should be around 500,000 and Freeza should be 530,000. You do the math and that equates to a 1.06x gap.
So now that I've shown you that a 1.06x gap should be a close fight, (my evidence for that is Goku vs. Nappa and Vegeta vs. Freeza). Both matters with stated battle powers to work with, and combat feats to further prove how close that gap should be:
Zarbon >~ Dodoria.
Here's the problem I have with you sticking to Zarbon (23,000); in other words, a 1.04x gap between him and Vegeta...
To go further to help my above main rebuttals, with some additional points, I'm going to point out a possible pattern the author was taking since the Namek arc is one of his earlier arcs that consists of battle powers, numbers, etc in that area.
Edited by Professor Gohan, Nov 9 2014, 04:29 AM.
|TheACE||Nov 13 2014, 01:40 AM Post #7|
The Last GT Fighter
Wow we're still on the warm-up round. Ok, counter arguement then I move that we move onto the Ginyu section, on the merit that the tournament's going to last till the winter budokai otherwise.
Well Teen Goku's Kanji, if I'm not mistaken is for his Ultimate/Super Kamehameha Wave, and Gohan's was for his Masenko blast. Again, my Japanese isn't brilliant, but I'd say the source is a bit more relevant than we'd think.
Well perhaps the image training is a little on the short side. And yes, Gohan is impressed with Krillin. Krillin has some impressive moves. Destructo Disk, Multi-Form, Kamehameha, Scatter Bullets, those are all impressive and overwhelming techniques. But power and versatility are not synonymous.
That and Gohan is a Saiyan Hybrid. Not only has he shown enormous growth potential historically over the series, but he also benefits from the Zenkai, which seems to fluctuate anywhere in the series from a 33% power boost (ala Vegeta's jump from 18,000 to 24,000) to something in the realm of apparently 33 times (Ala Goku post healing tank.). I know that a Saiyan has to get trashed pretty hard after a fight to get a Zenkai, but between you and me lil Gohan looked prettttty trashed there. The only trouble with this part of the manga is how utterly outclassed that Krillin and Gohan were, so we really didn't get much of a showing from them. Krillin's battle sense and intellegence is far superior to Gohan's, which can make up for a power gap. He's even demontrated this against Gohan's highly skilled, talented, and more powerful father. Given Krillin's two decades of fighting experience, at least six of which were spent adventuring, training and saving the world with Goku, it's safe to say that his experience kept him on even ground with his adoptive nephew.
Again, I don't think the gap was massive, but Gohan had an edge in raw power through the subtle implication of the image training, and his Saiyan biology, along with historical examples and consistent subtext and just plain text about his own development.
Again, ~, and /= really don't have defined meanings, so you got me on nitpicking. Not much elese to say, I suppose it's a stylistic choice really.
Let's see if I can address this all in order.
Point 1.) Correct, Dodoria and Vegeta would have about a 9% power direrential. And logically if POWER was the only factor, than certainly yes. However, in a fight, power is far from the only deciding factor. Individual stats such as Durability, Fighting Skill, Versatility, Speed and the like all work into play. The example of Goku vs. Nappa boils down to skill...
Nappa is a hardened warrior, and once he did calm down as Vegeta ordered, he was able to fight with his maximum level of skill, which bridged the gap between their powers. Similar to the Goku v Krillin conflict. Or even Tambourine v. Yamcha, despite Yamcha's injuries he was still able to fight the more powerful Tambourine despite the fact that Tambourine flattened Krillin in a minute flat.
Vegeta even stated that he had been on the front lines, which contributed not only to his power as he cites here but one can logically conclude that his skills are sharper as a result. Frieza reinforces this two, though he is certain that a combined assault from Dodoria and Zarbon would suffice to put Vegeta down.
Point 2.) Yes I do. And the Saibamen would respectively be at approximately 1,200 yes. And, not quite. My definition of a stomp isn't numerical dependant, although the two quick hits that Tien used to put it down hardly qualified as a fight. Tien clearly had a power and skill edge, and didn't use any lethal techniques. Similar to the fight with Goku and Recoome. Even giving Recoome a generous battle power of 45,000 is a modest 50% of Goku's max, a Goku who was able to non-lethally put him down with a single punch.
Besides, the Z Fighters themselves have returned for more after significantly more brutal beatings. Krillin had his head nearly taken off by Recoome, with a Daizenshuu 7 power level circa 13,000 or so compared to Recoome's circa 40,000 or so. Putting Krillin at about a third of Recoome's power, assuming Recoome's power is on the modest end (40,000, though I have heard estimates as close as 50,000 in some cases) which by your numerical argument should have been enough to pop Krillin's head straight off. Even if Recoome did hold back with the kick (and why bother?) he would still likely be in the 20~ range, which would still put them at an approximate 33% difference in power. Again, more than enough to atomize our favorite bald monk.
Or Tienshinhan for that matter. In the Fusion Saga Tien somehow survived Super Majin Buu's kick. Even if it was an off handed one, and even though Tien had been training, one has to keep in mind that this Buu is even more powerful than the most powerful non-fused being in the universe (Gohan) who trumps Gotenks as a Saiyan Ascended Even Further Beyond, who more than trumps Goku, who should have at least a three to four times edge (If the Super Saiyan multipliers hold strong) on Vegeta in his Ascended Majin form. At the BAREST MINIMUM with the most MODEST MULTIPLIERS that would put Super Buu (Gotenks Absorbed) over 10 times stronger than Tien at this point (And that's giving Tien some Super God Hax Plot Armor) and somehow he didn't explode. Although we've seen kick's from guys with a big enough power gap can actively blow someone right the f*** up.
Or even by default, explain this one. Dodoria and Cui couldn't touch Vegeta with a measly 25% gap. Frieza had actively jumped his power up to 50% three chapters earlier. Krillin and Gohan could have amped Piccolo two million each on top of his power, generously putting him near 6 million and that's still only a measly 10% of Frieza's power at that point. a 90% gap where he could hurt Frieza, albeit off guard, but still hurl him into the depths of the ocean.
So yeah, numerical gaps aren't necessarily the tell all know all, just a general idea. Skill and durability apparently still play as big a role in a Dragon Ball fight as they do in the real world. We can set up the gaps for what they're worth (and that's exactly what they're doing) but they don't guarantee anything.
On a personal note, after doing Muay Thai and Shaolin for the combined duration of 12 years, the guy with the biggest bench press doesn't always win the fight, especially if he can't guard his blind spot.
Edited by TheACE, Nov 13 2014, 01:42 AM.
|Professor Gohan||Dec 8 2014, 03:13 AM Post #8|
Okay, we can move on. I'll let you start the next round. Though, I just want to get a couple things off my chest.
There's a couple problems with Gohan achieving a zenkai at that point, especially to surpass Krillin.
Firstly, Gohan wasn't in the required state of condition to achieve a zenkai. That's because he wasn't near death after his fight with Vegeta.
He was standing and fighting Vegeta just fine, before Vegeta got mad and fired a shock wave, pushing everyone back. Gohan landed on a rock and then transformed into an Oozaru. Once the showdown was over, he was knocked out because of the transformation, not injuries so horrible he goes unconscious and near death.
Secondly, every zenkai Gohan achieved in the manga was stated to let us know. I think we would need more support for that one. Goku's and Vegeta's zenkais were mentioned every time they achieved one.
Well, I've already explained why Krillin should be the one who's stronger here.
But at least you somewhat agree with me and can place them at equals because of skill.
But remember it wasn't such a tight gap to begin with, so skill is only going to matter so much here (when it already doesn't matter much series-wise already).
I just think my point is stronger because of the given numbers and feats along them. Whereas you're conjecturing Gohan achieved a zenkai, when it wasn't the time yet. We don't even know how many zenkais Goku got on the spaceship. Depending on Saiyan biology has its limits, though it's good.
I agree they're important, and are factors... but they need to be mentioned or implied so us readers can know.
I don't really see how Nappa vs. Goku was skill, though. Shouki mentality was involved, yes. But no combat skill was ever used in their fight. Maybe a little intelligence superiority, but that's about it.
Edited by Professor Gohan, Dec 12 2014, 04:37 AM.
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